Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120209095#Comment_120209095

That is very unusual for props. Especially tighthead.

pickarooney

Moore hasn't really lived up to the expectations, and was only really coming back into the picture now he's a lot older.

When you. Think of Hayes and Ross who were complete unknowns in their early 20s there's a good chance a lad who has been overlooked and who'll come good later in his career.

CIARAN_BOYLE

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120209003#Comment_120209003

In general an athletic props will be identified younger. Scrumaging take years to develop.

It feels like the Irish teams are trying to move to more athletic props in general with the scrum being of middling value at most. It feels like theres a lot less scrums in a game on average than there was a few years ago.

Tony Buckley would be right at home at the moment.

MaybeMaybe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120209499#Comment_120209499

the held up over the goal line law change has certainly contributed to fewer scrums.

Moore was a good scrummager early on which got him in to teams faster, wasn't really until this season that he seemed to add much to his game. Mike Ross was keeping both Moore and Furlong out of the first Leinster 15 because he was so good in the scrum despite Furlong being a future World Best.

Obviously you want to have Furlong but I think people aren't giving anywhere near enough credit to Bealham - I think he's been terrific for the last 18 months. Going to be a physical game at the weekend though - would ideally like more of a starting and benching front row available and whilst Murray went well against Wales I'd like a bit more tempo at the breakdown, France will be much better there than Wales were.

CIARAN_BOYLE

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120209535#Comment_120209535

Thats certainly one factor contributing to fewer scrums. I believe that scrum advantage is being called advantage over shorter than it was 5-10 years ago too so the significant portion of knock ons aren't actually causing scrums.

phily2002

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120209593#Comment_120209593

I'd like to see this with penalties as well. I think it's annoying when a team get a penalty near halfway, make their way into the 22, knock on but get to go back to the penalty. There should be set rules for this, you make over 10-15 meters/certain number of phases.

Serbian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210341#Comment_120210341

Yeah, that wrecks my head also. I think a phase count would be the fairest way to ref it. Teams understand they have 5 phases to make something happen before the penalty is awarded. The territory thing (10+ meters) feels a bit too subjective and possibly takes away from the carte blanche teams get when they have penalty advantage that often leads to entertaining moments.

FrannoFan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210341#Comment_120210341

the rule is "tactical or territorial"

Could learn from 7's on the speed it is called over.

I always feel its sort of "dead" time. we are playing but not really playing. (particularly moments in Italy v France where Italy went nowhere for numerous phases)

arsebiscuits1

Great interview with Vakh this morning:

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/if-you-gave-me-the-decision-again-id-make-the-same-one-10-times-out-of-10-leinster-prop-vakhtang-abdaladze-on-playing-for-georgia-42330487.html

Rigor Mortis

Isnt scrum advantage tied to getting over the gainline from where the offence is? It actually makes sense.

I'd agree penalty advantage should be tied to phases.

crisco10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210677#Comment_120210677

Drives me batty, another scenario is when a team has the clock on their side in the final quarter and penalty advantage, then they spend a minute or two going nowhere knowing they'll come back for the penalty anyway, then another minute taking the penalty etc. Can easily end up with 2 or 3 minutes of match time totally lost to a penalty and its (non appearing) advantage. Thus killing time on the clock with absolutely no jeopardy. (And yes I know, the defending team could have just not conceded the penalty in the first place)

Dubinusa

The lads are getting rest and the injured are healing. It would be great to have Henshaw tog out v Dragons. He must be fairly close.

I reckon we'll have Milne back for this match? If not, who's next up?

FrannoFan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211423#Comment_120211423

I'd expect a lot of lads released back to the provinces.

Anyone not in the match day 23 should be available. (baird, mccarthy etc etc)

durthacht

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211423#Comment_120211423

Jack Boyle was pictured training again after his injury and it would be great to see him get some minutes this season if possible. Otherwise I think it's Milne and Hanan until Ed Byrne recovers.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211599#Comment_120211599

Boyle is an exciting prospect. Hanan isn't really much of an option? He's not being selected and it's year 3 for him. Getting minutes into Boyle would be fantastic.

As an aside, I thought that Hadden did well for the 20's. For that age group, he looked good in the scrum.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210341#Comment_120210341

You cant and shouldnt have it over a set number of metres of phases because advantage is very different at different levels of the game and different depending on where you are on the pitch.

Can this be moved to Laws thread?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210478#Comment_120210478

A phase count isnt fair way to ref it as it can be totally different game to game and within games depending on where on pitch you are etc

Serbian

Maybe belongs in the laws thread alright, but I’d be interested to hear when you think a phase based approach would not be fair?

The goal in my mind would be to get away from the infinite advantage that we currently see in most games. I don’t really see any scenario where being called back after five phases is especially unfair and it adds to the game management aspect of rugby too which I find appealing.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212557#Comment_120212557

Because just going through multiple phases doesnt necessarily bring an advantage. Advantage must be territorial or tactical and simply going through multiple phases may not bring an advantage in either of those criteria. And how players can kick penalties from 50+ in pro game you will have far longer advantages than the past and if in 22 the team who has advantage doesnt score a try then the officials will go back to penalty.

pickarooney

If you've not made significant progress after 5 phases then go back to the penalty, no?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212644#Comment_120212644

That's generally what happens anyway

I've no idea where this idea of "infinite phases" comes from. If there's no obvious advantage after a few phases the ref will go back for the pen.

phily2002

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120213346#Comment_120213346

If it's close to the line with penalty advantage you basically have infinite phases to try score.

In general play if your not making any real ground the refs will go back but it can change a lot depending on the ref.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120213407#Comment_120213407

But you don't have infinite phases

If there's a five meter pen then the only real advantage is to score a try.

If the team continues to just bash up and gets no where, the ref will call the penalty.

Id love to see an example of these infinite phases

pickarooney

In the France Italy game you can see them happening in real time. Penalty blown about 40m out, the French defence is set and it's clear as day Italy are going nowhere but you have to sit and watch the inevitable for two whole minutes before it's called back.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120213729#Comment_120213729

I think refs trying to allow play as much as possible and not using whistle is better. very easy to criticise post the game but as i said before you cant have a hard and fast law about advantage because the circumstances will always be very different depending on field position etc.

Up to referee to call advantage over or go back to penalty earlier.

My impression is that penalties (roughly) outside the 22 are called back much sooner than those inside the 22.

Teams pushing the 5m will get left at it but this is just an impression so I could be wrong. I feel like play breaks down after a penalty near enough to the line only when there has been a score, a turnover, held up ball or a high risk play leading to turnover or dead ball.

I just can't remember play being called back at close range otherwise but that could be because one of the above happens before there is an option the vast majority of the time.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120213851#Comment_120213851

They are. If inside 22 at pro level if team doesnt score a try/score a drop goal the ref will go back. Because advantage is tactical or territorial. at pro level if in 22 then it can only be a score that ends advantage

Dubinusa

Another forum a poster said Sean O'Brien is off to Connacht. Great pick up for Connacht, if true.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120213897#Comment_120213897

Not only that but a lot of the time the advantage will be reset because another minor infringement occurs during the advantage period. All that for nothing when the attacking team knocks on over the line. While it may be fair on the attacking team it's truly exasperating for the viewer, particularly when a fantastic piece of last gasp defending is rewarded by a penalty for the opposition that could have been given 5 minutes earlier.

When the team that's ahead is on advantage they shouldn't essentially be allowed run down the clock for an age before kicking three points.

onefinemorning

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120213969#Comment_120213969

Very interesting news..if true - do you have a link to the other forum?

Not surprising though given the current backlog of backrows in Leinster at the moment.

I heard that he is looking to be referred to as Sean F. O'Brien rather than just plain SOB (to distinguish from the other 3 SOB's :-) )