Would you ever consider moving to continental Europe? And if so where?

Tyrone212

murpho999 wrote: »

This is a really bad attitude.

If you want to have a more pleasant experience and maybe make local friends then you should try to learn the language.

It will enrich the stay, earn respect from people and if you manage it then it makes everything more enjoyable.

Reminds of an article in the Irish times during the brexit debate interviewing English people who live in ireland and how they would vote. There was an elderly English couple who lived in Cork for years. They lived in France for 20 years or so and left because no one spoke English. They didn't learn French the entire time they were there. I haven't got the exact details of it right but that was the general gist.

yagan

Feria40 wrote: »

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Really?

I've seen estimates of over 200.000 undocumented Brits living cash in hand in the ghettos on the costas.

Why would anyone move to Britain abroad?

NeuralNetwork

Tyrone212 wrote: »

Reminds of an article in the Irish times during the brexit debate interviewing English people who live in ireland and how they would vote. There was an elderly English couple who lived in Cork for years. They lived in France for 20 years or so and left because no one spoke English. They didn't learn French the entire time they were there. I haven't got the exact details of it right but that was the general gist.

I met similar in Spain. An English couple who'd been there for 20+ years who still couldn't order a coffee in Spanish and knew absolutely nothing about Spain really at all other than it was warm and 'the plugs are funny'.

It's not to stereotype English people though, I know quite a few examples in France it can be the end of the scale. You get a lot of people moving to rural french locations because they are quite into French culture and language and want to experience French lifestyle. They're more likely to have forgotten how to speak English and end up responding in some kind of melange of the two.

The issue is with people who move to places like resorts on the costas who have no interest in the place other than the weather and the beach. They just want to recreate home abroad and that's it.

They're not exclusively English either. I've come across Dutch, Germans and Irish people who fit that description. It's just that there are a LOT of English examples due to volume of tourism.

It's very easy to exist somewhere, entirely in a bubble of satellite TV and a cluster of people who speak your language and shop in a fake English high street.

It's also more so true of retirees who don't need to necessarily work or interact much.

yagan

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

They're not exclusively English either. I've come across Dutch, Germans and Irish people who fit that description. It's just that there are a LOT of English examples due to volume of tourism.

It's very easy to exist somewhere, entirely in a bubble of satellite TV and a cluster of people who speak your language and shop in a fake English high street.

That's why I'd discount such places in discussing moving to Europe as they're really holiday resorts no different to ones in Turkey, Egypt and Morocco.

Expat ghettos essentially with a nucleus counter to the host nation.

Feria40

Deleted User wrote: »

? It’s at least partially true.

I'm a reasonably regular to Malaga (city) an UK and Irish people are few and far between. You'd normally find at least one GAA jersey wherever you go in the World but I actually can't ever remember seeing one in Malaga

Now your Benalmadena's and Marbella's are a different kettle of fish :pac:

Sugar Free

Living in Switzerland for a few years now. Most likely here for good. It might not be everyone’s cup of tea but the level of general accountability, cleanliness and stability is hard to beat. It’s also less punitive than Ireland to those who show financial prudence which means a greater ability to accumulate (and transfer) wealth. Another nice factor.

I still need to work more on the language as I’m only B1 or maybe B2, on a good day. And I don’t speak any dialect at all which would help with integration. It can be challenging though when you work 40-50 hours a week in English and go home to an English speaking household.

ShatterAlan

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

That's a nice story. Think you may have quoted myself instead of the lads discussing turkey though

Possibly.

ShatterAlan

Piehead wrote: »

Luxembourg. Yeah it’s very vibrant and exciting

Luxembourg is the world's best cure for insomnia.

BanditLuke

Portugal for tax and lifestyle reasons.

completedit

I find with language learning the effort is not worth it. I have enjoyed my language learning experiences and technically speak two at a C1 level but I'm not the type to make friends and casually chat in English let alone a foreign language. I feel girls have the advantage as there is an incentive for me to speak with them in the language. Not really the same if you're a man

jobeenfitz

Sounds like a snobbishness towards people living in the costas. A lot of older people struggle to pick up the language.

If people are happy, why not?

Jim2007

Tyrone212 wrote: »

Reminds of an article in the Irish times during the brexit debate interviewing English people who live in ireland and how they would vote. There was an elderly English couple who lived in Cork for years. They lived in France for 20 years or so and left because no one spoke English. They didn't learn French the entire time they were there. I haven't got the exact details of it right but that was the general gist.

I used to have a work colleague who went back to the UK ever two weeks and returned with a rucksack full of those horrible pre-sliced loans. Apparently despite the many regional breads on sail at the local bakers, Switzerland does not have proper bread!

4Ad

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Luxembourg is the world's best cure for insomnia.

Apart from that bar called 'The Black Stuff' I can say it's one miserable spot !!!

Hamachi

completedit wrote: »

I find with language learning the effort is not worth it. I have enjoyed my language learning experiences and technically speak two at a C1 level but I'm not the type to make friends and casually chat in English let alone a foreign language. I feel girls have the advantage as there is an incentive for me to speak with them in the language. Not really the same if you're a man

Not being facetious, but why did you bother learning two languages to C1 level if you don’t use them to make friends and interact with the locals? Seems counterintuitive.

You are on to something with women having an advantage when it comes to learning the language. I did an Erasmus year in Germany when I was a student. Most of the girls in the class came back fully fluent in the language because they had local boyfriends. Meanwhile, the lads didn’t have the same opportunities as women don’t tend to find foreign men with less than perfect language skills, as being a particularly attractive prospect.

You see the same thing play out here in Ireland. There are a fair number of Irish guys going out with Eastern European women and Brazilians to a lesser extent. However, men from those countries aren’t exactly highly prized by Irish women.

Jim2007

Sugar Free wrote: »

Living in Switzerland for a few years now. Most likely here for good. It might not be everyone’s cup of tea but the level of general accountability, cleanliness and stability is hard to beat. It’s also less punitive than Ireland to those who show financial prudence which means a greater ability to accumulate (and transfer) wealth. Another nice factor.

I still need to work more on the language as I’m only B1 or maybe B2, on a good day. And I don’t speak any dialect at all which would help with integration. It can be challenging though when you work 40-50 hours a week in English and go home to an English speaking household.

I’ve been in Switzerland for over thirty years and my high Germany is still terrible. It’s basically like learning a foreign language, since people don’t use it as a spoken language. Oh the other hand my Swiss German is fine as I mainly live and work with Swiss people. In fact as a child my daughter spoke to me mainly in dialect and it’s only now in her late teens the she speaks English to me.

Feria40

yagan wrote: »

Really?

I've seen estimates of over 200.000 undocumented Brits living cash in hand in the ghettos on the costas.

Why would anyone move to Britain abroad?

Firstly the original post was about Malaga City not the Costa's.

Secondly, the ghettos on the Costa's? Ah come on :rolleyes:

Piehead

4Ad wrote: »

Apart from that bar called 'The Black Stuff' I can say it's one miserable spot !!!

Not sure you have explored it properly

Feria40

Feria40 wrote: »

Firstly the original post was about Malaga City not the Costa's.

Secondly, the ghettos on the Costa's? Ah come on :rolleyes:

Malaga has plenty of “ex-pats” as does the whole coast there. So you can get by with English unlike parts of inland Spain.

yagan

jobeenfitz wrote: »

Sounds like a snobbishness towards people living in the costas. A lot of older people struggle to pick up the language.

If people are happy, why not?

Older people move to such places to be surrounded by their own type. They're not interested in discovering a new country or culture, they just want they're used to + sun.

It's not snobbery to admit that. It's just the reality.

CelticRambler

In response to the original question: already considered it and moved, to France, more than 15 years ago. My work takes me all over the country for variable lengths of time, so I know now that (a) the way life and the people are in one place can be very different to another; and (b) area I made my home suits me perfectly! I've worked for long enough close enough to the Swiss-German border to be able to sample daily life in those nearby territories, and the thought of moving to Germany wouldn't bother me too much, but I'd prefer Bavaria or Austria.

I couldn't cope with living in Switzerland, at least not the western cantons - the eastern and "Italian" part of the country is more interesting. I've been pestered with contacts over the last week to go and work there, even to set up a business, but the having seen first hand how seriously the Swiss take their night-times, it's just not for me.

If I wasn't already committed longterm to my house and lifestyle in France, I'd be seriously tempted to take up one of the offers to move to one of the dying villages of Italy, where they give you a house for free and a few euros to live for a few years. Spain and Portugal just don't have the same appeal though.

Wherever you move, though, making a conscious choice to not learn the language is just plain stupid, and not making a serious effort is a great way to be forever unsettled. By far the biggest mistake that I see other immigrants make (at least here in France) is filling their ears with the sounds of home. People underestimate how much of a handicap it is to listen to spoken English while you're trying to learn the new language. Unless you're really gifted, after a few hours muddling through the "foreign" language, it's comforting to phone home, or meet up with expat mates, or tune in to Sky/CNN/Netflix/YouTube and not have to struggle to understand what's being said. But doing that undoes a lot of the work you put in earlier in the day, so the next day you have to start again, and over weeks/months/years you make really slow progress which knocks your confidence and reinforces the bad habit of always taking the easy option. This is the main reason why children in school, guys/girls with a native partner, and people working in a non-English-speaking environment always learn faster - hours spent in those situations cuts down drastically the time your ears are contaminated with the rhythms and sounds of English.

triggermortis

triggermortis wrote: »

Lived in Holland and worked in Belgium for a while - best time ever.
Lived in Switzerland - good if you like rules.
Don't speak any German, French, Flemish, Dutch. Didn't starve but didn't assimilate. Glad to be home!!

You lived in Belgium? Then you should know that Flemish is not a language!

Captain Havoc

The difficulty I had when I moved to Zurich is that I already spoke French and I was speaking to people in either French or English. I moved there thinking that I would pick up German the same way I picked up French. I was also watching French TV and buying Swiss-French newspapers, English ones were too expensive. I did pick up some German, I could do my daily stuff and my job in German but I couldn't really converse in German. When it was way too late, I decided to take a German course, it was well over halfway into my year, but I reckon if I had done it from the start, then my German would have been exceptional, it's still a regret to this day.

A few years ago I decided to do a language degree, which I'm about to finish, of course I chose French and German. My French was not as good as I thought it was but my German could have been so much better if I had done a course earlier in Zurich. It's the reason that I urge anyone who moves abroad for any length of time to take a course, it's your best opportunity to master a language and the most effortless. If you do happen to be living in or moving to Switzerland, I took my course with Migros Klubschule, which was excellent. They are located all over the country, and unlike almost everything else in Switzerland, it was pretty cheap. I know Migros is the Swiss equivalent of SuperValu but don't let that turn you off.

HalloweenJack

I lived in the Czech Republic for a year and been in Spain for eight.

CR was grand. Cheap, though wages are relative. People are nice but pretty distant at first. It can take a while to break through. The language is quite different and hard to get your head around. I had a decent time but the language was a big obstacle to me feeling more comfortable. Winter also majorly put me off.

I studied Spanish at school and college and did Erasmus in Madrid so I had it much easier when I came to Spain after my language struggles in the CR. I don't live in a big city or near the costas so it's a more Spanish feel. Wages aren't great but the cost of living is a lot cheaper. The winner for me is the quality of life. Friendly people, plenty of affordable eating out, relaxed vibe and more appreciation for enjoying life as opposed to more materialistic approaches in other countries. To each their own but that suits me just fine.

Wherever you are, having the language helps no end. I struggled to settle in the CR because of the language. I would have had a different experience if I had got to terms with it, as has been the case in Spain. Its only by fully being able to understand the locals that you'll be really able to know if a place is for you or not. While people might be able to speak English, you're never going to really 'get' them until you can have a chat with them in their own words.

I've seen plenty of ex-pats come and go and make no more than the most basic effort to learn the local language and engage with locals. I find it quite disrespectful tbh. If its short-term, fine, but long-term its pathetic.

CelticRambler

Captain Havoc wrote: »

It's the reason that I urge anyone who moves abroad for any length of time to take a course, it's your best opportunity to master a language and the most effortless.

I wouldn't discourage anyone from doing a course, but I do find that a lot of people aim to master the language, then get frustrated when they can't achieve that within an arbitrary time frame. My preferred strategy is to get my "students" to learn a very limited vocabulary, but one that they will get to use over and over and over again in a short space of time.

Most summers, I take non-French speakers under my wing to work as volunteers at a festival, dealing directly with the (mostly) French speaking public. For the most part, in 24 hours I can have these guys and girls ready to say hello, take orders, ask for payment, refer problems to a manager, and/or give a cheery goodbye.

Now the lads working at the bar might not have enough shared vocab to talk to the lads working in the ticket office, but by the end of the festival, both groups will usually be able to make small-talk with the public, and that does wonders for their confidence.

CelticRambler

CelticRambler wrote: »

I wouldn't discourage anyone from doing a course, but I do find that a lot of people aim to master the language, then get frustrated when they can't achieve that within an arbitrary time frame. My preferred strategy is to get my "students" to learn a very limited vocabulary, but one that they will get to use over and over and over again in a short space of time.

Most summers, I take non-French speakers under my wing to work as volunteers at a festival, dealing directly with the (mostly) French speaking public. For the most part, in 24 hours I can have these guys and girls ready to say hello, take orders, ask for payment, refer problems to a manager, and/or give a cheery goodbye.

Now the lads working at the bar might not have enough shared vocab to talk to the lads working in the ticket office, but by the end of the festival, both groups will usually be able to make small-talk with the public, and that does wonders for their confidence.

How do they understand the replies? Thats what gets me. I can learn to ask questions and I can understand some answers but guaranteed, a question that invites a yes or no answer will instead result in a long winded answer that I cant understand because I can only get maybe half the words

Explaining in Spanish that my Spanish is poor and asking them to speak slowly using basic grammer usually makes it worse

CelticRambler

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

How do they understand the replies? Thats what gets me.

It may seem paradoxical, but working in a high-pressure serving-the-public environment makes that easy. Customer comes up to you and says: "I'd like three regular beers, two pale ales, one red wine and two ciders, please" You've been taught all the relevant numbers and vocab, so now you repeat it all back to him, to be sure you understand it correctly, then go and get the order. The worst that can happen at this stage is the customer calls you back and says "actually, make that two regular beers and three pale ales", in which case you repeat the whole lot again, with a few filler words thrown in if you feel up to it: "are you sure, now? that's final? no refunds if you change your mind again ..."

There are seventeen more customers queued up behind this one, so there's little risk of getting stuck in an open-ended conversation about philosophy or politics ... until it gets quiet (but you're the newbie, so you've been assigned to the rush hour) Then, as you've been interacting with people like that for three hours, and haven't had time to think about your grammar or the right tense to use when booking a train ticket and you've been hearing the language with a "native" ear, suddenly it's easier to understand the unfamiliar words that someone throws at you when you're not expecting it.

Northernlily

Considered moving to coastal mediterranean Spain for the summer at least. Not one of the tourist resorts but maybe a town/village. Ideal to work remotely and pay half the amount of rent I'm currently paying.

I'd make an effort to learn the language by signing up with Cervantes or someone whilst I'm there.

CelticRambler

CelticRambler wrote: »

It may seem paradoxical, but working in a high-pressure serving-the-public environment makes that easy. Customer comes up to you and says: "I'd like three regular beers, two pale ales, one red wine and two ciders, please" You've been taught all the relevant numbers and vocab, so now you repeat it all back to him, to be sure you understand it correctly, then go and get the order. The worst that can happen at this stage is the customer calls you back and says "actually, make that two regular beers and three pale ales", in which case you repeat the whole lot again, with a few filler words thrown in if you feel up to it: "are you sure, now? that's final? no refunds if you change your mind again ..."

There are seventeen more customers queued up behind this one, so there's little risk of getting stuck in an open-ended conversation about philosophy or politics ... until it gets quiet (but you're the newbie, so you've been assigned to the rush hour) Then, as you've been interacting with people like that for three hours, and haven't had time to think about your grammar or the right tense to use when booking a train ticket and you've been hearing the language with a "native" ear, suddenly it's easier to understand the unfamiliar words that someone throws at you when you're not expecting it.

Indeed but as I said above, every time I get into a short conversation with a native, they go off on mad tangents and it ends up being gibberish to me. Maybe Im just encountering crazies or its the area Im in because its not a tourist area so they arent as used to idiots abroad like myself

ShatterAlan

Feria40 wrote: »

I'm a reasonably regular to Malaga (city) an UK and Irish people are few and far between. You'd normally find at least one GAA jersey wherever you go in the World but I actually can't ever remember seeing one in Malaga

Now your Benalmadena's and Marbella's are a different kettle of fish and chips :pac:

FYP :P

seenitall

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Indeed but as I said above, every time I get into a short conversation with a native, they go off on mad tangents and it ends up being gibberish to me. Maybe Im just encountering crazies or its the area Im in because its not a tourist area so they arent as used to idiots abroad like myself

Ah that old ‘inbetween’ phase of learning a language!! You know enough to get things done in the shop and not to appear as an uncouth fly-by-night, but not enough for the intricacies of small talk and ‘gibberish’. This just depends on your persistence now. Even if you never darken the doors of a language school again, if you really listen to that gibberish, and make sure you absorb the few words that you do understand, the meaning will start opening up for you at some point. It’s like magic.

There is no language teacher as good as living among the native language speakers and having to interact with them on a daily basis. None.