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  • 24-02-2021 11:41pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 481 ✭✭ Munsterlad102


    I've always been fascinated by 2 things in particular, machine guns and loopholes and I may have found an example which negates the more restrictive side of Irish legislation by combining the two.

    http://www.mockingbirdprecision.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=540

    The firearm I've linked is an M60, the Pig. These machine guns only came in full auto variants and were belt fed. However, the one I've linked is a semi auto build and chambered in 7.62. After reading the Irish legislation I believe this is a non restricted firearm, let me explain. In the following explanations I will refer to the semi auto M60 as "this firearm" or similar.

    Firstly, this firearm is not an assault rifle as it cannot function in both full and semi auto, neither can the normal M60 so it does not resemble an assault rifle.

    Secondly, this firearm is legally not semi auto. Although this functions like any normal semi auto, this firearm is belt fed. SI 21/2008 states that "semi-automatic firearms means firearms that reload automatically from a magazine or cylinder each time a round is discharged but can fire not more than one round with a single pull on the trigger". Since this firearm does not use a magazine or a cylinder, legally it is a repeating firearm and hence not restricted.

    Lastly the caliber, chambered in 7.62 this is within the non restricted threshold, ie under .308.

    Result: Because this firearm is not legally semi automatic it is hence not limited to 10 rounds in its loading device.

    I think I've made a fairly compelling case, apologies if I'm stating the obvious with caliber, initially I was looking at a S/A MG40 but 8mm Mauser wouldn't work. If I've left anything out, please tell me. Also I heard something about all post 2017 S/A licenses were subject to being revoked so would this negate that?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭ tudderone


    $15,500 + transport !


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,244 ✭✭✭✭ Gatling


    Civilian m249 semi automatic feeds 5.56 from belt or magazine cheaper too ??
    https://fn57sale.com/product/saw-m249/

    Langley , Virginia



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    This could be a party pooper....

    DIRECTIVE (EU) 2017/853 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL
    of 17 May 2017

    amending Council Directive 91/477/EEC on control of the acquisition and possession of weapons

    (23)

    Some semi-automatic firearms can easily be converted to automatic firearms, thus posing a threat to security. Even in the absence of such conversion, certain semi-automatic firearms might be very dangerous when their capacity, in terms of the number of rounds, is high. Therefore, semi-automatic firearms with a fixed loading device allowing a high number of rounds to be fired, as well as semi-automatic firearms in combination with a detachable loading device having a high capacity, should be prohibited for civilian use. The mere possibility of fitting a loading device with a capacity exceeding 10 rounds for long firearms and 20 rounds for short firearms does not determine the classification of the firearm in a specific category.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    I think I've made a fairly compelling case,
    200.gif

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - RFDs - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads


    If you see a problem post use the report post function, "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.


    Your Shooting Forum Moderators - Cass, Cookimonster, Vegeta, Sparks, It wasn't me!



  • Registered Users Posts: 37,373 ✭✭✭✭ Mellor


    Firstly, this firearm is not an assault rifle as it cannot function in both full and semi auto, neither can the normal M60 so it does not resemble an assault rifle
    That seams reasonable.
    Doesn’t meet the SI definition of assault rifle.
    It resembles a machine gun - a true machine gun, not the TV/Movie nickname for a full auto.
    Lastly the caliber, chambered in 7.62 this is within the non restricted threshold, ie under .308.

    Correct.
    Secondly, this firearm is legally not semi auto. Although this functions like any normal semi auto, this firearm is belt fed. SI 21/2008 states that "semi-automatic firearms means firearms that reload automatically from a magazine or cylinder each time a round is discharged but can fire not more than one round with a single pull on the trigger". Since this firearm does not use a magazine or a cylinder,
    De-Loophole-licious...
    ...but looks like doesn't technically meet the definition of semi auto in the SI. Which only says magazine or cylinder as you correctly point out.
    ...legally it is a repeating firearm and hence not restricted.

    This is where your hopes are dashed :(
    “repeating firearms” means firearms that are loaded and reloaded from a magazine or cylinder by a manually-operated mechanism;

    Not manually operated so not a repeater (or single shot), therefore not unrestricted.
    It's also 110.5cm long, so fouls the 90cm rule.


    Back to the drawing board I guess. :p


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  • Registered Users Posts: 481 ✭✭ Munsterlad102


    tudderone wrote: »
    $15,500 + transport !

    I know it’s very pricey but it was just an example, I have no intention of buying a 15k gun.


  • Registered Users Posts: 481 ✭✭ Munsterlad102


    Gatling wrote: »
    Civilian m249 semi automatic feeds 5.56 from belt or magazine cheaper too ??
    https://fn57sale.com/product/saw-m249/

    I can't afford that either:D It was just an example, also it would have to be belt fed only to not be a semi auto.


  • Registered Users Posts: 481 ✭✭ Munsterlad102


    This could be a party pooper....

    I covered this in the initial post. Legally a semi auto belt fed doesn't fit the definition of being semi automatic so no magazine or "loading device" limits apply to it.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    I covered this in the initial post. Legally a semi auto belt fed doesn't fit the definition of being semi automatic so no magazine or "loading device" limits apply to it.

    Under the current SI, which I take it is Irish you could have your loop hole. But under EU directives each member state is compelled to comply and infact may be stricter in thier application.
    So by using the term 'loading device' it seems to cover all avenues whether clips, magazines, belts, strips, tubes and what not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 481 ✭✭ Munsterlad102


    Under the current SI, which I take it is Irish you could have your loop hole. But under EU directives each member state is compelled to comply and infact may be stricter in thier application.
    So by using the term 'loading device' it seems to cover all avenues whether clips, magazines, belts, strips, tubes and what not.

    Yes, but the loading device limit only applies to CF SA. I haven't read the entire directive but I couldn't find any definitions for anything, so what is a semi automatic rifle or a loading device under EU law? I've said it before, the term loading device makes me think of something you use to load magazines. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1016205574?pid=781394 things like this in particular. You could certainly make a case that 30 round AR mags aren't loading devices for CF SA but that's neither here nor there. Ultimately the legislation, SI 21/2008 in particular, goes to show how our lawmakers haven't a fcuking clue about firearms.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 481 ✭✭ Munsterlad102


    Cass wrote: »
    200.gif

    When I win the lotto:D:D:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 481 ✭✭ Munsterlad102


    Mellor wrote: »
    This is where your hopes are dashed :(



    Not manually operated so not a repeater (or single shot), therefore not unrestricted.
    It's also 110.5cm long, so fouls the 90cm rule.


    Back to the drawing board I guess. :p

    Ah, true. So close:D. I completely forgot there was a definition for repeater, that blows that idea out of the water. But then again, would this same firearm be a work around for the loading device limit? Also, is there a barrel length for restricted firearms, apart from the 30cm for short firearms?


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    At the moment this is all I can find on EU EU definitions, I think there are up dates with the recent 2018 changes

    ANNEX I

    I.

    For the purposes of this Directive, ‘weapon’ means:



    any firearm as defined in section II of this Annex,



    weapons other than firearms as defined in national legislation.

    II.

    For the purposes of this Directive, ‘firearm’ means:

    A.

    Any object which falls into one of the following categories, unless it meets the definition but is excluded for one of the reasons listed in section III.

    Category A — Prohibited firearms

    1.

    Explosive military missiles and launchers.

    2.

    Automatic firearms.

    3.

    Firearms disguised as other objects.

    4.

    Ammunition with penetrating, explosive or incendiary projectiles, and the projectiles for such ammunition.

    5.

    Pistol and revolver ammunition with expanding projectiles and the projectiles for such ammunition, except in the case of weapons for hunting or for target shooting, for persons entitled to use them.

    Category B — Firearms subject to authorization

    1.

    Semi-automatic or repeating short firearms.

    2.

    Single-shot short firearms with centre-fire percussion.

    3.

    Single-shot short firearms with rimfire percussion whose overall length is less than 28 cm.

    4.

    Semi-automatic long firearms whose magazine and chamber can together hold more than three rounds.

    5.

    Semi-automatic long firearms whose magazine and chamber cannot together hold more than three rounds, where the loading device is removable or where it is not certain that the weapon cannot be converted, with ordinary tools, into a weapon whose magazine and chamber can together hold more than three rounds.

    6.

    Repeating and semi-automatic long firearms with smooth-bore barrels not exceeding 60 cm in length.

    7.

    Semi-automatic firearms for civilian use which resemble weapons with automatic mechanisms.

    Category C — Firearms subject to declaration

    1.

    Repeating long firearms other than those listed in category B, point 6.

    2.

    Long firearms with single-shot rifled barrels.

    3.

    Semi-automatic long firearms other than those in category B, points 4 to 7.

    4.

    Single-shot short firearms with rimfire percussion whose overall length is not less than 28 cm.

    Category D — Other firearms

    Single-shot long firearms with smooth-bore barrels.

    B.

    Any essential component of such firearms:

    The breach-closing mechanism, the chamber and the barrel of a firearm which, being separate objects, are included in the category of the firearms on which they are or are intended to be mounted.

    III.

    For the purposes of this Annex objects which correspond to the definition of a ‘firearm’ shall not be included in that definition if they:

    (a)

    have been rendered permanently unfit for use by the application of technical procedures which are guaranteed by an official body or recognized by such a body;

    (b)

    are designed for alarm, signalling, life-saving, animal slaughter or harpoon fishing or for industrial or technical purposes provided that they can be used for the stated purpose only;

    (c)

    are regarded as antique weapons or reproductions of such where these have not been included in the previous categories and are subject to national laws.

    Pending coordination throughout the Community, Member States may apply their national laws to the firearms listed in this Section.

    IV.

    For the purposes of this Annex:

    (a)

    ‘short firearm’ means a firearm with a barrel not exceeding 30 centimetres or whose overall length does not exceed 60 centimetres;

    (b)

    ‘long firearm’ means any firearm other than a short firearm;

    (c)

    ‘automatic firearm’ means a firearm which reloads automatically each time a round is fired and can fire more than one round with one pull on the trigger;

    (d)

    ‘semi-automatic firearm’ means a firearm which reloads automatically each time a round is fired and can fire only one round with one pull on the trigger;

    (e)

    ‘repeating firearm’ means a firearm which after a round has been fired is designed to be reloaded from a magazine or cylinder by means of a manually-operated action;

    (f)

    ‘single-shot firearm’ means a firearm with no magazine which is loaded before each shot by the manual insertion of a round into the chamber or a loading recess at the breech of the barrel;

    (g)

    ‘ammunition with penetrating projectiles’ means ammunition for military use where the projectile is jacketed and has a penetrating hard core;

    (h)

    ‘ammunition with explosive projectiles’ means ammunition for military use where the projectile contains a charge which explodes on impact;

    (i)

    ‘ammunition with incendiary projectiles’ means ammunition for military use where the projectile contains a chemical mixture which bursts into flame on contact with the air or on impact.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,332 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    You could certainly get it licensed as a CF semi-auto if it has been built on a new receiver and uses totally de-miled parts and has NO FA components and is incapable of fitting such ,and you get the German BKA technical dept in Wiesbaden to clear it for general sale.as they are pretty much the default go-to body on t what is permissible to sell in Europe for firearms and whether they fall foul of the German war weapons control act
    BUT you would have to somehow show that you would only use 10 round belts in it, or it's only capable of such.
    Otherwise its in the CAT A Prohibited under EU legislation.

    15 K for something like that, basically a heavy lump of difficult to maintain, run and to perform with at least a half dozen critical breaking parts, that even when you had an armourer to supply and fix, kept breaking and has taken something like 3 decades of service to fix to run properly. It wasn't called "THE PIG" for nothing.

    Nah! get an RPK in Semi-auto,At least you can put 10 rounders in negating all that mag capacity crap, and have plenty of cash left over to buy ammo and a new jeep to haul it to the range, and have a gun that will run like the Duracell bunny.:p

    https://ak-47gunshop.com/product/romanian-rpk-rifle-m13-industries/

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭ tudderone


    You also have to remember, what is likely to be banned or further restricted in the future. Its only a matter of time before one of Angela Merkels "new Germans" from the middle east, goes on the rampage again. Then the eu will look for other things to ban, no telling where the axe will fall.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,332 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    So long as they use lorries,or fireaxes or bladed weapons they are forgiven and mow down a bunch of people at an Xmas market in Berlin its ok as they were just Western Christians who.....Add your sin of omission here .

    But the moment the boogeyman of the "extreme alt right" makes a few crappy homemade Luty SMGs and a pipe shotgun and fires them into a 6in oak door of a synagouge... Or is some lad who has decided he wants to live back in 1932 Weimar Germany and the laws of the land dont apply to him...but for some reason he has licensed guns in the fake state of the FRG :confused: All hell breaks loose!

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 481 ✭✭ Munsterlad102


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    You could certainly get it licensed as a CF semi-auto

    The point of was really to find a way around the magazine capacity limit, so is it possible to license one as a "belt fed rifle" or something like that, because it technically isn't semi automatic?
    Otherwise its in the CAT A Prohibited under EU legislation.

    How exactly does the definition work with that? There's a different EU definition for semi automatic than the Irish one, so which one takes precedent?
    Nah! get an RPK in Semi-auto,At least you can put 10 rounders in negating all that mag capacity crap, and have plenty of cash left over to buy ammo and a new jeep to haul it to the range, and have a gun that will run like the Duracell bunny.:p

    https://ak-47gunshop.com/product/romanian-rpk-rifle-m13-industries/

    Is there a dealer that has 7.62x39 in stock and how much does it cost? The firearm I linked was just an example, I wish I had 15 grand to spend on a rifle:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 481 ✭✭ Munsterlad102


    tudderone wrote: »
    You also have to remember, what is likely to be banned or further restricted in the future. Its only a matter of time before one of Angela Merkels "new Germans" from the middle east, goes on the rampage again. Then the eu will look for other things to ban, no telling where the axe will fall.

    Good point, I've seen the damage they've done firsthand in Rome and Paris. I can't imagine a terrorist running around with a 20kg belt fed gun, but that won't stop the EU banning anything.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,332 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    The point of was really to find a way around the magazine capacity limit, so is it possible to license one as a "belt fed rifle" or something like that, because it technically isn't semi-automatic?

    Yup, you could...If you lose the semi-auto feature and turn it into a very heavy straight-pull bolt action rifle.
    The French had this problem as there are/were a few Resistance war souvenirs of MG42s and the like in some French shooters cabinets, so a conversion to
    straight-pull bolt action was the compromise rather than the destruction of historic French artefacts,under the current EU directive.
    They do have a sort of pragmatic solution to problems,the French and the "loading device" in relation to belts/links was taken to mean such.
    How exactly does the definition work with that? There's a different EU definition for semi-automatic than the Irish one, so which one takes precedent?

    The EU as it is a directive that has to be implemented into Irish law.

    Is there a dealer that has 7.62x39 in stock and how much does it cost? The firearm I linked was just an example, I wish I had 15 grand to spend on a rifle:D

    Couple of "dealer samples" of SKS knocking about...So it must be gettable. Still relatively cheap as there are billions of Russian and Chinese rounds out there.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭ tudderone


    The point of was really to find a way around the magazine capacity limit, so is it possible to license one as a "belt fed rifle" or something like that, because it technically isn't semi automatic?



    How exactly does the definition work with that? There's a different EU definition for semi automatic than the Irish one, so which one takes precedent?



    Is there a dealer that has 7.62x39 in stock and how much does it cost? The firearm I linked was just an example, I wish I had 15 grand to spend on a rifle:D

    I'd be interested to know that too. CZ do a lovely little bolt action carbine in that calibre. I'd love one for informal target shooting.


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    or something like that, because it technically isn't semi automatic?

    I'm a bit lost here, why do you say 'technically isn't semi automatic'?

    Does it or does it not reload itself after it fires a round?
    Whether blow back, gas operated, a chain gun etc, etc it is a semi automatic. Now if it lever release or MAR style in its function and it met the other EU Regs then it could be ok.

    As a EU member state we take our direction from EU directives, theres mechanisms to ensure no constitutional issues and the measures of policing, enforcement and penalties can be down to individual member states.


  • Registered Users Posts: 481 ✭✭ Munsterlad102


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Yup, you could...If you lose the semi-auto feature and turn it into a very heavy straight-pull bolt action rifle.
    The French had this problem as there are/were a few Resistance war souvenirs of MG42s and the like in some French shooters cabinets, so a conversion to
    straight-pull bolt action was the compromise rather than the destruction of historic French artefacts,under the current EU directive.
    They do have a sort of pragmatic solution to problems,the French and the "loading device" in relation to belts/links was taken to mean such.



    The EU as it is a directive that has to be implemented into Irish law.




    Couple of "dealer samples" of SKS knocking about...So it must be gettable. Still relatively cheap as there are billions of Russian and Chinese rounds out there.

    Was there a directive enforcing the EU definitions or not? I couldn't find anything much other than SI 21/2008.


  • Registered Users Posts: 481 ✭✭ Munsterlad102


    tudderone wrote: »
    I'd be interested to know that too. CZ do a lovely little bolt action carbine in that calibre. I'd love one for informal target shooting.

    Yeah, it would certainly be worth a look. Maybe you could import in bulk if there isn't anyone selling it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 481 ✭✭ Munsterlad102


    I'm a bit lost here, why do you say 'technically isn't semi automatic'?

    Does it or does it not reload itself after it fires a round?
    Whether blow back, gas operated, a chain gun etc, etc it is a semi automatic. Now if it lever release or MAR style in its function and it met the other EU Regs then it could be ok.

    As a EU member state we take our direction from EU directives, theres mechanisms to ensure no constitutional issues and the measures of policing, enforcement and penalties can be down to individual member states.

    Ok, I cover this in the first post but I'll explain again. A belt fed semi automatic firearm legally isn't semi automatic as according to SI 21/2008 “semi-automatic firearms” means firearms that reload automatically from a magazine or cylinder each time a round is discharged but can fire not more than one round with a single pull on the trigger. Because belt fed semi autos don't have cylinders or magazines, legally they are not semi automatic. Completely ridiculous, but why not benefit from lawmakers' ignorance?


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    I think you are chasing moon beams with that interpretation / argument.

    Look at a certain court case that was ruled on recently in relation to hot water, glass jugs and too a degree common sense. It basically said that not everything had to be in writing for common sense or practical applications to prevail.

    The over arching EU Directive would fall into place pull that loop hole shut.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,332 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Was there a directive enforcing the EU definitions or not? I couldn't find anything much other than SI 21/2008.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Firearms_Directive#Newly_prohibited_firearms

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 37,373 ✭✭✭✭ Mellor


    How exactly does the definition work with that? There's a different EU definition for semi automatic than the Irish one, so which one takes precedent?
    They are separate documents. The EU document lists prohibitive weapons.
    The Irish one defines restricted vrs non restricted. Both apply.

    Eg. Under the Irish SI, an AK47 is a restricted firearm, as it only defines non-restricted and everything else.
    But an AK is also prohibited under EU law.


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Yup, you could...If you lose the semi-auto feature and turn it into a very heavy straight-pull bolt action rifle.

    I was going to suggest that convert into a MARS action would satisfy the SI.
    However it's still too long, so you'd have to chop 20cm or so off the end

    I'm a bit lost here, why do you say 'technically isn't semi automatic'?

    Does it or does it not reload itself after it fires a round?
    Whether blow back, gas operated, a chain gun etc, etc it is a semi automatic. Now if it lever release or MAR style in its function and it met the other EU Regs then it could be ok.

    I think it was just a tongue in cheek look that the SI definition of semi-auto. Which is limited to mag or cylinder.
    But as pointed out, not meeting the definition for a semi doesn't put it in the non-restricted category.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,332 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Mellor wrote: »
    T

    I was going to suggest that convert into a MARS action would satisfy the SI.
    However it's still too long, so you'd have to chop 20cm or so off the end
    .

    Sorted!:D
    latest?cb=20110630130124

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 775 ✭✭✭ otmmyboy2


    tudderone wrote: »
    I'd be interested to know that too. CZ do a lovely little bolt action carbine in that calibre. I'd love one for informal target shooting.

    I was looking at a Ruger American Ranch in 7.62x39 a while back.
    Used x39 mini 30 mags too, so 10 rounds over the 5 the CZ has.

    Or a dirt cheap SKS and have it modded to be a straight pull... :D

    Couldn't find any x39 in Ireland.
    There was some in UK however with brexit I'd suggest Czech or Germany.
    Both have it by the pallet, surplus & new manufacture.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭ tudderone


    otmmyboy2 wrote: »
    I was looking at a Ruger American Ranch in 7.62x39 a while back.
    Used x39 mini 30 mags too, so 10 rounds over the 5 the CZ has.

    Or a dirt cheap SKS and have it modded to be a straight pull... :D

    Couldn't find any x39 in Ireland.
    There was some in UK however with brexit I'd suggest Czech or Germany.
    Both have it by the pallet, surplus & new manufacture.

    Yeah its a common round everywhere else, and dirt cheap. Of course anything in the slightest out of the ordinary here, and you cannot get it.


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