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So called "cheap" brands.

  • 17-02-2021 11:34pm
    #1
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,555 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass
    Moderator


    I was looking through a few sites recently and noticed the increased popularity of Bergara rifles.

    I remember about 10 year ago i was waiting on a new Bartlein Barrel and i was told if i need something for the "time being" my gunsmith could get me a new brand called Bergara. He didn't view them as any good but said they were cheap as chips and he had a few spare.

    I didn't bother.

    Roll on a few years and no one would equate Bergara with cheap or crap. So what changed? Did the quality increase or was it always there but dismissed because it was new.


    So that got me thinking. What other brands are or were considered crap because the were new or cheap but from real world use have proven to be anything but crap?

    I'd be interested to hear people' opinions along with comparisons to the known, "quality" brands they compete against.

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«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭ Feisar
    Registered User


    I can't think of any dramatic examples but the glass in my Sightron SIII is IMHO slightly better than in my Nightforce NXS, both 8-32x56, though it pains me to say it. I was looking to see were Bergara bought out and invested in, can't find any info. I was thinking maybe someone done the opposite of what Freedom Arms done to Remington. I've a 700 VSF and it's a cracking rifle the current Remingtons aren't at the races at all. Even Stateside on forums where there would be a strong buy US made ethos are all about the Tikka's.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users Posts: 850 ✭✭✭ zeissman
    Registered User


    When I started shooting many years ago any riflescope made in japan was considered junk.
    Nowadays any scope from japan is highly rated.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,047 ✭✭✭ civdef
    Registered User


    I remember S&B ammo (especially 22 hornet) being looked upon as cheap ammo for practicing but not up to standards of other manufacturers- it’s a lot more respectable now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 49 ESetter
    Registered User


    I remember when Hornady ammo arrived here first..was looked on as a new cheap alternative to Winchester,Remington etc..look at it now!


  • Registered Users Posts: 393 ✭✭ useurowname
    Registered User


    Circa 1980s Beretta silver pigeon was considered a value gun. Much like ATA now.
    Miroku were initially introduced as a value trap gun, since have earned a massive reputation for quality, usability and reliability particularly with the mk38. They make most of what has Browning stamped on it too.
    Conversely Wembley and Scott were once a quality British side x side box lock. Now they’re, well whatever they are I dunno but they ain't made in Birmingham!


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster
    Moderator


    Just look at optics, the top marquees are now introducing what would be considered 'fighter brands', products or lines that fall into the general market. It's no good having 90% of the top end of the market if that means infact you've less then 25% of the overall market.
    Manufacturers realise that it's better to have a share or all the markets then just a prestigious toe hold. This goes for everything from food to high, high end luxury items.

    Fair play if you can afford and use a high end Swarovski / Zeiss scope, but in practical terms will the Schmidt and Bender not suffice or in reality a Hawke give you that same result. We all talk about those extra few moments that high end glass will give in Dawn or Dusk situations but again in reality those situations are far and few between for many to warrant, in some cases, quadruple out lay in costs.

    The technological, manufacturing and quality control gaps are narrowing, especially in mid range markets. What's getting better is the ability to convince some of us we need the new gadget or latest model.

    Some of the older stuff has better build quality then modern models today. But those older production standards are been sold to us as 'special' or often 'custom'. On the other hand many of the entry level rifles to day shoot out of the box with a higher degree of accuracy then previous generations. Remember MOA or sub MOA rifles are a relatively new thing, even precision builders of modern rifles would have standard of 2 MOA guns or more depending on the use. Factory ammo still gets a bad rep, especially in the staunch and hallow halls of the reloaders, but this is a left over from the days that factory was crap. Post WWII and all the other conflicts including more recent ones have greatly advanced rifle ammunition and in conjunction with higher QC standards of mass produced rifles now it is more typical to have a rifle straight out if the box shoot consistent sub MOA, usually with the aid of a reasonably priced scope that has repeatable, reliable adjustments and holds zero.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,555 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass
    Moderator


    Feisar wrote: »
    I can't think of any dramatic examples but the glass in my Sightron SIII is IMHO slightly better than in my Nightforce NXS, both 8-32x56, though it pains me to say it.
    The Sightron scope is something i can relate to. When i bought my first one, the 8-32x56 LRRMOA model, it was €1,100 (Half the price of Nightforce) and i was told it'll never measure up to Nightforce. I would easily put it on a par with NF and within a couple of years the price of the Sightrons rose yet the product stayed the same. I think they're in the €1,800+ range now.

    Smaller things too. I know lads that wouldn't touch a Deben bipod and probably for good reason as they said they had problems. However i've had two on my rifles for almost ten years and they've never let me down or malfunctioned. Yet the swivel model in Deben of the same size is over €50 cheaper than the Harris.

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - RFDs - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads


    If you see a problem post use the report post function, "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,342 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45
    Registered User


    Mossberg shotguns...Cheap &cheerful in the 1970s if you were too poor to afford a Remington 870.:) Today,....

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 393 ✭✭ useurowname
    Registered User


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Mossberg shotguns...Cheap &cheerful in the 1970s if you were too poor to afford a Remington 870.:) Today,....

    Are they not still a bit crap?


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,555 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass
    Moderator


    Are they not still a bit crap?

    giphy.gif

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - RFDs - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads


    If you see a problem post use the report post function, "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.


    Your Shooting Forum Moderators - Cass, Cookimonster, Vegeta, Sparks, It wasn't me!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 393 ✭✭ useurowname
    Registered User


    Cass wrote: »
    giphy.gif

    A mans gotta have an opinion ..


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭ tudderone
    Registered User


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Mossberg shotguns...Cheap &cheerful in the 1970s if you were too poor to afford a Remington 870.:) Today,....

    Bought a new mossberg pump for 120 pounds, as it was missing its chokes and the stock had taken a cosmetic wallop in transport. Wasn't expecting much but it was a great gun, reliable and a good shooter. I'd have another.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭ tudderone
    Registered User


    civdef wrote: »
    I remember S&B ammo (especially 22 hornet) being looked upon as cheap ammo for practicing but not up to standards of other manufacturers- it’s a lot more respectable now.

    Fired a couple of boxes of S&B in .243 before Christmas, and it really isn't the rubbish it used to be. Not expensive either.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,342 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45
    Registered User


    Are they not still a bit crap?

    I'm running a Mossberg /New Haven model 500,so one of the firsts when Mossberg was still contracting NH for work for the last30 plus years and what that gun has gone thru in foreshores, swamps, hunts, comp shoots etc. Its a champ!. The only problem I ever had with it was on a shoot in Hungary, and once in every 5 to 10 shots, it wouldn't fire.
    Found out that it was a less-used Multi choke barrel that was still pretty new, and the two locking lugs/ wouldn't fully engage sometimes in their notches on the barrel. A few minutes in a garage with a diamond point file sorted it out

    Only other gripe is, the ejection port could be bigger. Have had ejection problems with some ammo brands, in the fact when the shell is fired,it becomes longer with the crimp now unfurled that it sometimes wont clear the port properly. Ammo fault not the guns fault,and the newer models have corrected this I believe.

    Only thing I replaced on it was a bigger safety switch and would change out the plastic trigger group housing with an aftermarket steel one. If I could be arsed that is...:pac:

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 393 ✭✭ useurowname
    Registered User


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    I'm running a Mossberg /New Haven model 500,so one of the firsts when Mossberg was still contracting NH for work for the last30 plus years and what that gun has gone thru in foreshores, swamps, hunts, comp shoots etc. Its a champ!. The only problem I ever had with it was on a shoot in Hungary, and once in every 5 to 10 shots, it wouldn't fire.
    Found out that it was a less-used Multi choke barrel that was still pretty new, and the two locking lugs/ wouldn't fully engage sometimes in their notches on the barrel. A few minutes in a garage with a diamond point file sorted it out

    Only other gripe is, the ejection port could be bigger. Have had ejection problems with some ammo brands, in the fact when the shell is fired,it becomes longer with the crimp now unfurled that it sometimes wont clear the port properly. Ammo fault not the guns fault,and the newer models have corrected this I believe.

    Only thing I replaced on it was a bigger safety switch and would change out the plastic trigger group housing with an aftermarket steel one. If I could be arsed that is...:pac:

    I’m reading your post wondering whether you think they are good or not.
    You’ve listed misfires, poor quality parts and having to make repairs and modifications, are you sure you like the Mossbergs? Cos you ain’t exactly changing my mind ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭ tudderone
    Registered User


    I’m reading your post wondering whether you think they are good or not.
    You’ve listed misfires, poor quality parts and having to make repairs and modifications, are you sure you like the Mossbergs? Cos you ain’t exactly changing my mind ?

    I know a lad with a blaser O/U bought brand new that was the biggest heap of rubbish i have ever seen. It constantly malfunctioned, hang fired, Double fired, failed to fire at all. It was back to the dealer/importer every month until the lad refused to have it back and demanded his money back.

    But i don't think Blaser are all crap, i wouldn't buy one, but they are not all bad.


  • Registered Users Posts: 393 ✭✭ useurowname
    Registered User


    I well believe that about Blaser shotguns. I have heard other similar stories.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,342 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45
    Registered User


    I’m reading your post wondering whether you think they are good or not.
    You’ve listed misfires, poor quality parts and having to make repairs and modifications, are you sure you like the Mossbergs? Cos you ain’t exactly changing my mind ?

    :D:D Giving you an honest review of a mid to early 1980s Gen 2or3 gun that has probably got about 50k worth of ammo thru it and a relatively hardish life and 30 of years of living with it and the problem was sorted within 5mins. And whose faults are now doubt corrected in what Gen 6 of their products?

    I didn't have to replace those parts because they were broken either. I just preferred an aftermarket safety switch, and the other part[trigger pak] isn't showing any sort of need to be replaced.

    But no doubt its utter rubbish, after all the USMC and US Army only put about 500k worth of ammo non stop with no cleaning with thru one in their test requirements for one of the "off the shelf" 500s before adapting them as a weapons system.
    Its the most popular selling shotgun in the US with police depts, govt agencies and civvies since the mighty Remington is gone bankrupt, and whose products of late left a lot to be desired.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,759 ✭✭✭ clivej
    Registered User


    Nothing wrong with my Mossberg 88 7 + 1, Cheap as sh!t and won me the National championship T&P1 competition. I think the other competitors were blind that day :rolleyes:;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 393 ✭✭ useurowname
    Registered User


    Well I’d sooner have problems with a €500 Mossberg, than a €3500 Blaser
    I’m sure they’ve given thousands of shooters thousands of hours of pleasure shooting and for a small outlay.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,071 ✭✭✭ Birdnuts
    Registered User


    Hatsan got a band rap for years but I know more and more lads using them with few issues


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭ tudderone
    Registered User


    How much of it is actually fact, that a gun is bad, and how much of it is snobbery ? Some Guns with a bad reputation are actually bad, the Walther p22 for instance. I was aked by a newbie one day at the range to help him sight it in. So with the target at 10 meters to start with, and shooting off a rest, it was dire accuracy wise. So the bad rap is deserved.

    But stuff like Lanber shotguns, CZ rifles, etc etc are looked down on, but are actually good.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,090 Mod ✭✭✭✭ riffmongous
    Moderator


    Do people look down on CZ? Or do they just see it as a beginner brand?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭ tudderone
    Registered User


    Do people look down on CZ? Or do they just see it as a beginner brand?

    I think they are excellent, but you see lads with one and after a year or two they "Trade up" to something thats supposed to be better, when in reality the CZ does all thats needed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 393 ✭✭ useurowname
    Registered User


    tudderone wrote: »
    How much of it is actually fact, that a gun is bad, and how much of it is snobbery ? Some Guns with a bad reputation are actually bad, the Walther p22 for instance. I was aked by a newbie one day at the range to help him sight it in. So with the target at 10 meters to start with, and shooting off a rest, it was dire accuracy wise. So the bad rap is deserved.

    But stuff like Lanber shotguns, CZ rifles, etc etc are looked down on, but are actually good.

    Well I wouldn’t rubbish anything I hadn’t experienced first hand, or had known factually of someone who had a bad experience.
    A shooting partner had Mossberg S/A from new and it was junk. It misfired and/or failed to cycle a lot of different shells.
    I would never look down on Lanber, the o/us of the mid noughties were quality. Pity you can’t buy a new one.
    Dunno a lot about rifles but I’ve never heard anyone have issue with CZ.
    Bettensoli still going does anyone know ?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,090 Mod ✭✭✭✭ riffmongous
    Moderator


    tudderone wrote: »
    I think they are excellent, but you see lads with one and after a year or two they "Trade up" to something thats supposed to be better, when in reality the CZ does all thats needed.

    Yeah right, that's what I thought. I think it's just because for a while they were the go-to recommendation for anyone starting off with a .22, so any snob will want to upgrade quickly alright


  • Registered Users Posts: 437 ✭✭ JP22
    Registered User


    Some rifles/pistols are very good quality and shoot accurately, some will need some slight tweaking (bedding, ect.) to get the best from them. Some cheaper firearms are for the most part fine, others are horrible and plagued with problems.

    Regardless of manufacture/price you can always get a bad one which is plagued with problems, same goes for cars, tv's, etc.

    One of the finest/most accurate rifles ever made is an Anschutz 54 (I know I'm biased) however, some are prone to ejection problems and many a gunsmith and even Anschutz themselves have failed to fix the problem.

    I guess, sometimes its the luck of the draw.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ garrettod
    Registered User


    Hi,

    For those of you talking about CZs, I've an old BRNO Model 2. It's almost 60 years old, but has proven extremely reliable, and very accurate, out to 100yrds.

    It may look like a basic, cheap old gun, but I stand by it and think its great, for a gun that can be bought cheap from the second hand rails.

    Thanks,

    G.



  • Registered Users Posts: 437 ✭✭ JP22
    Registered User


    garrettod wrote: »
    Hi,

    For those of you talking about CZs, I've an old BRNO Model 2. It's almost 60 years old, but has proven extremely reliable, and very accurate, out to 100yrds.

    It may look like a basic, cheap old gun, but I stand by it and think its great, for a gun that can be bought cheap from the second hand rails.

    +1.

    Nothing wrong with CZ's, well made, accurate and affordable rifle.

    Brno's are better again IMHO, quality craftsmanship from long ago, the Brno 2 is the precursor of the modern CZ 452.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,759 ✭✭✭ clivej
    Registered User


    CZ rimfire rifles have never let me down. I started with a 452 Style a great accurate rifle. Then to the 452 American 16", and then 453 American with set trigger. I now have the CZ 455 16" with thumb hole stock and again very accurate.

    And now only this week I went a bought the CZ 457 Long Range Precession 20" with a match chamber, and paid well over double the price of my first CZ Style.

    544174.jpg
    cz_457_lrp_l.jpg


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