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So called "cheap" brands.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,394 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Vegeta


    Oh wow, that is lovely Clive. Has me tempted to run out and get one kinda lovely.

    I am a big fan of CZ rifles, I have a CZ 452 22lr. But the standard trigger was poor, there's no other way to describe the factory triggers of that era, loads of kits sprung up at the time to improve them too (speaks to the issue really). Bolt cycle is not what I would describe as smooth/slick either, the throw on a .22 is so short it doesn't really matter though.

    So I while I love how fun the rifle is, I would openly acknowledge it is a cheap rifle and has characteristics to match.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,628 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    Bettensoli still going does anyone know ?

    AFAIK.

    I have a Diamond Deluxe Sporter and love it. About the only other shotgun, other than Beretta, that i can throw to my shoulder and have perfect fitment and sight alignment each time.

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - RFDs - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads


    If you see a problem post use the report post function, "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.


    Your Shooting Forum Moderators - Cass, Cookimonster, Vegeta, Sparks, It wasn't me!



  • Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭ Peppa Cig


    clivej wrote: »
    CZ rimfire rifles have never let me down. I started with a 452 Style a great accurate rifle. Then to the 452 American 16", and then 453 American with set trigger. I now have the CZ 455 16" with thumb hole stock and again very accurate.

    And now only this week I went a bought the CZ 457 Long Range Precession 20" with a match chamber, and paid well over double the price of my first CZ Style.

    544174.jpg
    Attachment not found.

    Great job on CZ457


    https://youtu.be/W6ccLJBGt2U


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,431 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    tudderone wrote: »
    Some Guns with a bad reputation are actually bad, the Walther p22 for instance. I was aked by a newbie one day at the range to help him sight it in. So with the target at 10 meters to start with, and shooting off a rest, it was dire accuracy wise. So the bad rap is deserved.
    .

    Because its not a Walther made in their plant in Ulm perhaps? It's made ASFIK still by UMAREX in Germany.A company is known for airsoft, airguns, blank firearms and .22 repros. All bar the .22stuff are pot metal or cheap steel products.So bar maybe the barrels and stamping a pentagon on them and proof testing these. They aren't much different from the Walther blank firing pistol,or the Walther airsoft in materials used.
    Walther and other gun companies just license Umarex to use their brand name. Bit stupid IMO as when you get some POS like a UMAREX .22 that sometimes works out of the box.You will probably think all of Walthers stuff is utter pants.

    Nothing wrong with CZ/Brno at all.If I had the bobs and the patience,I'd change to a CZ shadow mamba 9mm[Basically a tuned up and customised CZ 75].It's one of those guns that you when you pick it up the 1st time,you know you and it will meld straight away.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭ tudderone


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Because its not a Walther made in their plant in Ulm perhaps? It's made ASFIK still by UMAREX in Germany.A company is known for airsoft, airguns, blank firearms and .22 repros. All bar the .22stuff are pot metal or cheap steel products.So bar maybe the barrels and stamping a pentagon on them and proof testing these. They aren't much different from the Walther blank firing pistol,or the Walther airsoft in materials used.
    Walther and other gun companies just license Umarex to use their brand name. Bit stupid IMO as when you get some POS like a UMAREX .22 that sometimes works out of the box.You will probably think all of Walthers stuff is utter pants.

    Nothing wrong with CZ/Brno at all.If I had the bobs and the patience,I'd change to a CZ shadow mamba 9mm[Basically a tuned up and customised CZ 75].It's one of those guns that you when you pick it up the 1st time,you know you and it will meld straight away.


    Oh yes umarex for sure. Very foolish for a company like Walther, with a huge reputation, to make a quick buck allowing their name to appear on rubbish like that. A bit like Mercedes allowing their three pointed star badge to appear on Lada's.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 810 ✭✭✭ otmmyboy2


    I will say that the more recent Umarex(Walther) PPQ M2 in 22lr is pretty good.

    Still not what I would term a perfect replica of the centrefire models, but significantly better than the P22 that preceded it.

    I was looking at the Glock in .22 when it came out, then saw the litany of issues they had and stuck with the PPQ instead :P

    Fits 9mm glock holsters too, mostly! :D

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban

    2023 Gun Ban - Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2022



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,431 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    After the disastrous merger for Mercedes with Chrysler in the Oughties, and Chrysler buying in the cheapest of the cheap component parts made probably in some mud hut in a jungle someplace. Mercedes reputation and reliability took such a nosedive, that Lada would be utterly insulted to have that star anywhere near their products or to be associated with them.:D:D:D

    Give me A Lada Niva 4wd any day these days over a Merceded G Wagen. The Lada is one-tenth the price and will get you there off-road with levers and lumps of pig iron being slammed into other lumps of pig iron, more effectively than 200k worth of sometimes very dubious electronic chips deciding when and where it should apply traction or 4wd and getting stuck on wet grassy hills, that its 80s ancestors just loped up no problem.:rolleyes:

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭ tudderone


    otmmyboy2 wrote: »
    I will say that the more recent Umarex(Walther) PPQ M2 in 22lr is pretty good.

    Still not what I would term a perfect replica of the centrefire models, but significantly better than the P22 that preceded it.

    I was looking at the Glock in .22 when it came out, then saw the litany of issues they had and stuck with the PPQ instead :P

    Fits 9mm glock holsters too, mostly! :D


    Have you looked at the CZ P07 ? I know a few lads had the earlier model cadet and they were excellent. I don't know if the new ones are as good, but worth a bit of research if you want a .22 pistol.


    https://www.czub.cz/en/firearms-and-products-product/cz-p-07-kadet


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭ cookimonster


    Peppa Cig wrote: »


    Just looked at both vids, part 1 & 2, the Covid piggybank could be pushed off the self for this one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 444 ✭✭ jb88


    Just look at optics, the top marquees are now introducing what would be considered 'fighter brands', products or lines that fall into the general market. It's no good having 90% of the top end of the market if that means infact you've less then 25% of the overall market.
    Manufacturers realise that it's better to have a share or all the markets then just a prestigious toe hold. This goes for everything from food to high, high end luxury items.

    Fair play if you can afford and use a high end Swarovski / Zeiss scope, but in practical terms will the Schmidt and Bender not suffice or in reality a Hawke give you that same result. We all talk about those extra few moments that high end glass will give in Dawn or Dusk situations but again in reality those situations are far and few between for many to warrant, in some cases, quadruple out lay in costs.

    The technological, manufacturing and quality control gaps are narrowing, especially in mid range markets. What's getting better is the ability to convince some of us we need the new gadget or latest model.

    Some of the older stuff has better build quality then modern models today. But those older production standards are been sold to us as 'special' or often 'custom'. On the other hand many of the entry level rifles to day shoot out of the box with a higher degree of accuracy then previous generations. Remember MOA or sub MOA rifles are a relatively new thing, even precision builders of modern rifles would have standard of 2 MOA guns or more depending on the use. Factory ammo still gets a bad rep, especially in the staunch and hallow halls of the reloaders, but this is a left over from the days that factory was crap. Post WWII and all the other conflicts including more recent ones have greatly advanced rifle ammunition and in conjunction with higher QC standards of mass produced rifles now it is more typical to have a rifle straight out if the box shoot consistent sub MOA, usually with the aid of a reasonably priced scope that has repeatable, reliable adjustments and holds zero.

    Ive got 3 Hawkes and they dont give the same result as a S&B PM2 or a Nightforce. With Glass as with Cars, if its German or Japanese get it. Then if you want something you are never going to be able to use properly or dont have enough patience, like me go American, same as cars


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  • Registered Users Posts: 394 ✭✭ useurowname


    Cass wrote: »
    AFAIK.

    I have a Diamond Deluxe Sporter and love it. About the only other shotgun, other than Beretta, that i can throw to my shoulder and have perfect fitment and sight alignment each time.

    Nice gun the bettensoli. They seemed to offer a lot for not too much money.
    I always consider the second hand price the best indicator of the reliability and quality of a product. Hence a reasonably tidy second hand 686 or 525 doesn’t be too long on a dealers racks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 810 ✭✭✭ otmmyboy2


    tudderone wrote: »
    Have you looked at the CZ P07 ? I know a few lads had the earlier model cadet and they were excellent. I don't know if the new ones are as good, but worth a bit of research if you want a .22 pistol.


    https://www.czub.cz/en/firearms-and-products-product/cz-p-07-kadet

    I actually did, liked their magazine arrangement but don't like the, IMO, outdated SA/DA mechanism.
    I was looking for something with a safe action trigger, that felt similar enough to a striker fired centrefire pistol, so that left me, at the time, with the S&W M&P .22, or the Walther PPQ M2 .22.

    The PPQ just felt a bit better in the hand so opted for that.
    I would have liked a Taurus TX22 were they more available in Europe, and had some decent holsters/holster compatability.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban

    2023 Gun Ban - Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2022



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,791 ✭✭✭ clivej


    Vegeta wrote: »
    Oh wow, that is lovely Clive. Has me tempted to run out and get one kinda lovely.

    I am a big fan of CZ rifles, I have a CZ 452 22lr. But the standard trigger was poor, there's no other way to describe the factory triggers of that era, loads of kits sprung up at the time to improve them too (speaks to the issue really). Bolt cycle is not what I would describe as smooth/slick either, the throw on a .22 is so short it doesn't really matter though.

    So I while I love how fun the rifle is, I would openly acknowledge it is a cheap rifle and has characteristics to match.

    I put the DipInk adjustable sear trigger unit in my CZ 455, it makes a good rifle great.

    A completely new trigger unit on these new CZ 457 rifles. Next to no creap, brakes like glass, and fully adjustable. But be ready to get the cheque book out, not cheap at €1189. But they start a lot cheaper


  • Registered Users Posts: 361 ✭✭ transit260


    how are the Baikal looked upon, are they taken seriously as a decent game gun or a first gun for beginners ..are they still being made today


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭ tudderone


    transit260 wrote: »
    how are the Baikal looked upon, are they taken seriously as a decent game gun or a first gun for beginners ..are they still being made today

    Tough yes, thats for sure. But i bought a new side by side and had problems with it. Pull the front trigger and that was fine but sometimes if you then needed the second barrel and pulled the back trigger, it couldn't be pulled. I thought the safety was going on under recoil from the first shot but it wasn't. Had it back to the shop several times and we never worked out what was causing it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,454 ✭✭✭ Vizzy


    Cass wrote: »
    AFAIK.

    I have a Diamond Deluxe Sporter and love it. About the only other shotgun, other than Beretta, that i can throw to my shoulder and have perfect fitment and sight alignment each time.


    Great minds .....

    I have one as well, was never a fan of O/U having spent all my life with SXS.

    Bought the Bettinsoli to replace a low end SXS that wasn't capable of firing 70mm cartridges. Lovely gun, light, multiple chokes and never misses a beat.
    When I got it first, it pooh pooh'd a bit by one of my mates with a Beretta.
    He wasn't gloating for long when it broke a firing pin about 20mins into a "driven shoot" LOl

    Now, I wont even take the SXS out of the safe


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭ meathstevie


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    After the disastrous merger for Mercedes with Chrysler in the Oughties, and Chrysler buying in the cheapest of the cheap component parts made probably in some mud hut in a jungle someplace. Mercedes reputation and reliability took such a nosedive, that Lada would be utterly insulted to have that star anywhere near their products or to be associated with them.:D:D:D

    Give me A Lada Niva 4wd any day these days over a Merceded G Wagen. The Lada is one-tenth the price and will get you there off-road with levers and lumps of pig iron being slammed into other lumps of pig iron, more effectively than 200k worth of sometimes very dubious electronic chips deciding when and where it should apply traction or 4wd and getting stuck on wet grassy hills, that its 80s ancestors just loped up no problem.:rolleyes:

    Ah Grizzly, you’re reminiscing about the days when a G300TD was basically a Puch G and the only difference with the mil spec one was the seats and the paint job.

    Since you mention the Lada Niva, an uncle of mine had one when I was a nipper. Mustard yellow with black vinyl seats, drank like a Russian sailor on shore leave but sweet jesus did that thing plough through mud. And that was with a cattle trailer behind it. I think they tested them in rasputitsa conditions on bog roads.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,628 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    clivej wrote: »
    And now only this week I went a bought the CZ 457 Long Range Precession 20" with a match chamber, .........................
    That is really, really nice. I mean REALLY.
    But be ready to get the cheque book out, not cheap at €1189. But they start a lot cheaper

    Thats not that bad. Anschutz start at €1,500+. I love the action. Looks more "professional".

    Did you have to import or are RFDs stocking them?

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - RFDs - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads


    If you see a problem post use the report post function, "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.


    Your Shooting Forum Moderators - Cass, Cookimonster, Vegeta, Sparks, It wasn't me!



  • Registered Users Posts: 394 ✭✭ useurowname


    Ah Grizzly, you’re reminiscing about the days when a G300TD was basically a Puch G and the only difference with the mil spec one was the seats and the paint job.

    Since you mention the Lada Niva, an uncle of mine had one when I was a nipper. Mustard yellow with black vinyl seats, drank like a Russian sailor on shore leave but sweet jesus did that thing plough through mud. And that was with a cattle trailer behind it. I think they tested them in rasputitsa conditions on bog roads.

    That Lada sounds MEGA, I want one ! Mustard Yellow with black vinyl seats! Ya’d slide around like an eel on a pan in it !!


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,431 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    The Lada Niva is now one of the most popular hunting rigs in Germany .
    It's improved a heck of alot since the 80s machines fresh out of the ailing Soviet empire hit Europe. Trim is now on par with any std Jap car,as is wiring and all the rest.OK you still hear every nut and cog working past 60 mph:P, but it is now ASFIK the only still separate body and chassis machine out there that you don't have to sell your wife and daughters into prostitution and part with your kidney and to meet the monthly payments on it.
    They are still fixable with a socket set,a rock,a hammer ,a bigger hammer and a bottle of vodka.:)

    2 seats only from the dealer,so they qualify as commercial tax straight off in Germany. As hunting is classified as a commercial enterprise there as well...15 K ...How bad?

    https://www.autouncle.de/de/d/98461997-gebraucht-lada-niva-zubr-92ps-jagd-paket-2-jahre-garantie

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭ tudderone


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    The Lada Niva is now one of the most popular hunting rigs in Germany .
    It's improved a heck of alot since the 80s machines fresh out of the ailing Soviet empire hit Europe. Trim is now on par with any std Jap car,as is wiring and all the rest.OK you still hear every nut and cog working past 60 mph:P, but it is now ASFIK the only still separate body and chassis machine out there that you don't have to sell your wife and daughters into prostitution and part with your kidney and to meet the monthly payments on it.
    They are still fixable with a socket set,a rock,a hammer ,a bigger hammer and a bottle of vodka.:)

    2 seats only from the dealer,so they qualify as commercial tax straight off in Germany. As hunting is classified as a commercial enterprise there as well...15 K ...How bad?

    https://www.autouncle.de/de/d/98461997-gebraucht-lada-niva-zubr-92ps-jagd-paket-2-jahre-garantie

    Very surprised that they allowed to import them into the EU anymore with emissions and all that rubbish now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,431 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Ah Grizzly, you’re reminiscing about the days when a G300TD was basically a Puch G and the only difference with the mil spec one was the seats and the paint job.
    .
    Talk to me about it... I had one, an old 1984 5 door here for a couple of years,t
    Was a great machine, until it got sideswiped by a cement truck.:eek:
    THEN you get to know the joys of the silver star in getting parts and replacement bits. You get to be on 1st name terms with your credit union and bank manager real quick with one of those puppies.

    No wonder only rock stars or young black gentlemen or of Russian nationality involved in the narcotics trade can afford them these days.:rolleyes:

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,431 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    tudderone wrote: »
    Very surprised that they allowed to import them into the EU anymore with emissions and all that rubbish now.

    Nah,they have cleaned up their act immensely. Nothing like the Soviet-era stuff that we know. They don't even rust out after the 1st shower of rain anymore either.:P Drove one Germany 2 years ago and I'd rate it on par with a basic model economy Toyota of mid 90s vintage for fit and fittings and ergonomics.

    EDIT Sort of "crap brand that are good nowadays" related to this thread.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,791 ✭✭✭ clivej


    Cass wrote: »
    That is really, really nice. I mean REALLY.


    Thats not that bad. Anschutz start at €1,500+. I love the action. Looks more "professional".

    Did you have to import or are RFDs stocking them?

    Can be imported in a few days, don't. think mine is in the country yet. There are some in the dealers.
    I was holding the 457 LRP and liking it a lot, great trigger on them now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭ cookimonster


    A Lada Niva 4wd.....

    Back in the day I knew head game keeper on a big pheasant shoot here and he swore by the Lada. It went places Landies, Toyotas and other big money tickets couldn't go.

    In more recent years I was invited on a driven boar hunting weekend. The syndicate had a few of these wee beasties down at thier hunting lodge. These things went through rivers, over mountain roads and open ground like they were in a supermarket car park. At one stage as we were crossing a rather wide river the foot wells were filling up, the little car kept going and out through the other side.

    I'd love one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭ Peppa Cig


    Speaking of Lada. Back in the 80’s Skoda was in the same bucket as Lada. Look at them now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 394 ✭✭ useurowname


    Absolutely, although not without a BIG hand from Volkswagen.


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