Are we there yet? Your second Travel Megathread (threadbans in OP}

JTMan

Getting there ... https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1389144896955686912

Happydays2020

Happydays2020 wrote: »

This is what you said

‘it gives EU citizens the right to live and work anywhere in the EU. It doesn't give anyone the right to holiday anywhere’

Where is the restriction on holidays that you speak about?

1. Every citizen of the Union has the right to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States.

I did not say there are restrictions on holidays. There is no right to holidays.
States can and do control their own borders.

Happydays2020

bubblypop wrote: »

I did not say there are restrictions on holidays. There is no right to holidays.
States can and do control their own borders.

There is a right to move freely.

Any restrictions on that right need to be proportionate.

Border control is essentially to verify that one is an EU citizen.

Happydays2020

Happydays2020 wrote: »

There is a right to move freely.

Any restrictions on that right need to be proportionate.

Border control is essentially to verify that one is an EU citizen.

States can and do control their own border. Ireland is not in schengen, for example.
Restrictions on all rights need to be proportionate, that's obvious.

Lumen

Dave Keating wrote:

...Covid ban on non-EU citizens entering the union, which has been in place for over a year.

The what now?

Dr. Em

Lumen wrote: »

The what now?

It applied to Schengen. Ireland opted out of it.

Happydays2020

Happydays2020 wrote: »

There is a right to move freely.

Any restrictions on that right need to be proportionate.

Border control is essentially to verify that one is an EU citizen.

The right to move freely is the right of workers to move freely. It's one of the pillars, along with free movement of goods, capital and services. Free movement to go on holidays does not enjoy the same legal standing.

Lumen

Dr. Em wrote: »

It applied to Schengen. Ireland opted out of it.

Does that mean British residents of Ireland cannot currently travel to the Schengen area?

Dr. Em

Lumen wrote: »

Does that mean British residents of Ireland cannot currently travel to the Schengen area?

It is based on residency, not citizenship, as far as I understand. Here is the official page:

https://ec.europa.eu/info/live-work-travel-eu/coronavirus-response/travel-during-coronavirus-pandemic_en#restrictions-on-travel-from-third-countries-to-the-eu

You would probably also have to check the specific regulations for the destination.

mmclo

Happydays2020 wrote: »

There is a right to move freely.

Any restrictions on that right need to be proportionate.

Border control is essentially to verify that one is an EU citizen.

They're not necessarily contradictory, the treaties will hardly mention holidays or work. It's a broad right but definitely fundamental, one of the four freedoms so the ECJ takes it very seriously. It can of course be curtailed but as you say this must be proportionate. This is where the debate is, clearly as vaccinations roll out and with the Green Cert the EU and probably ECJ view would get stricter on what is allowed. Having said that the Green Cert or whatever they call it now has no real enforcement mechanism. The Commission would have the normal infringement powers though as it is based on Art 21 TFEU

My own view is the member states who want more restrictions (most definitely Ireland) will push it and bank on the fact that infringement takes forever. They will back down when vaccines have been given to the majority and any infringement proceedings would disappear if they had even materialized at that stage.

This is politics not law in the end of the day

Happydays2020

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The right to move freely is the right of workers to move freely. It's one of the pillars, along with free movement of goods, capital and services. Free movement to go on holidays does not enjoy the same legal standing.

The right to work is indeed far more important particular in respect to the internal market. It needs greater protections and interestingly one where Ireland shines compared to other EU MS.

However, moving freely is still a right. what you are travelling for is not defined and one can look at the discussion between the EU Commission and Belgium in respect to the restrictions and proportionality.

mmclo

Dr. Em wrote: »

It applied to Schengen. Ireland opted out of it.

With the usual hush hush

CruelSummer

Some of the posters on this thread seem terrified of the prospect that the Digital Green Cert will be a reality come mid July. What remains to be seen is what terms and conditions will be in place re testing/vaccination requirements. That will become clear in June as a huge number of vaccines will have been administered in the bloc.
It's an absolute no brainer to adopt this policy and begin to welcome tourists to these shores once again, while also allowing Irish people travel to theirs. It's understandable many people have booked staycations and will stick to them this year, between time limits of summer holidays and hassle free breaks, it's just not going to be a runner for a lot of families in particular. This is hard on middle income Ireland who may possibly lose thousands on holidays abroad that were postponed last year, especially if they won't be given the option to postpone it again due to the Green Cert issuance. Some who've bookings might find a way to go and recoup their losses rather than be left out of pocket to the tune of thousands of Euro, there's a lot of anger about this situation out there. Many hotel/campsite vouchers will expire this summer for European destinations that were issued last year to Irish people. The Government should help make this happen, at least be seen to give the option and help its citizens instead of the nonsensical demonisation of anyone going on a plane.
If the situation in the US continues to improve, reopening borders to vaccinated travellers should also be allowed, using either EMA or FDA approved vaccines. This will help our economic plight no end. If things Covid wise do take off towards Autumn, which is highly likely - there's always the option now to pull the emergency break, pull up the drawbridge temporarily and let the wave pass.

Marcusm

Johnny0Toole wrote: »

The right to move freely is the right of workers to move freely. It's one of the pillars, along with free movement of goods, capital and services. Free movement to go on holidays does not enjoy the same legal standing.

You are so wrong; article 5 of EC Directive 38 of 2004 grants the right on entry (for a period of up to 3 months) with the sole right to request a passport or a National ID card. Article 6 deals with the right of residence which relates to workers, self-employees, students and persons of independent means which deals with the rights beyond the 3 month period. Article 5 is what grants EU citizens the right to enter another EU member state for tourism etc.

This, as I stated before, is subject to serious public order, security or public health grounds. Ireland can fetter the ability to enter only where the restrictions are proportionate. Requiring a test, vaccination or recent recovery from covid is what the member states hve decided is reasonable. Emergency brake type procedures can be relevant where there is a worrying variant (or indeed new disease) but again these must be proportionate to the threat to the public.

One thing we Irish citizens have going against us is that article 4 which permits the right to exit a country cannot be pleaded by nationals of the particular member state. Nevertheless, if Ireland is open to entry, it is hard to justify (under our own constitution) the right to detain within the country.

Marcusm

bubblypop wrote: »

The right to travel for abortion was brought in by a referendum. The case that went to the courts before that brought about the need for a referendum was the AG v X.
Which was dealt with in the Irish courts and didn't go anywhere near a European court.
So entirely based on our constitutional rights.
Freedom of movement is a fundamental right of the EU and applies to goods, services and people, and it gives EU citizens the right to live and work anywhere in the EU. It doesn't give anyone the right to holiday anywhere, nor does it take away a states right to control their own borders. Ireland is not part of schengen, for example.

And as you did say, even if a case went to the ECHR, that has nothing to Do with our membership of the EU.

We’re you around at the time of the X case? Have you ever read the decision. The domestic law remedy was that due to the real threat to life (as a result of suicidal ideation) that X was entitled to an abortion here (which was not offered). The other part of the decision dealt with the application of Community law (Union law as we would now say) which made it clear that a ireland was not permitted, under domestic law for public policy grounds, to limit a citizen’s right to leave Ireland. The salient paragraphs are quoted below. You are correct that it did not need to go to ECJ but it still supports my retort to Niner that Union law does in fact supersede domestic law as that is how it has been enabled in our constitutional amendments to facilitate the treaties into and including Lisbonnetc.

lawful or wrongful act.
13. That the learned trial judge was wrong in law and in fact in holding that in the circumstances of this case the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution empowered the court to stop the first defendant from going abroad to terminate the life of her unborn.
14. That the learned trial judge was wrong in law and in fact in holding that there was no provision or principle of community law which would prohibit the exercise of the discretionary power to derogate from the requirements of the Treaty of Rome and community law in the manner contained in the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution.
15. That the learned trial judge was wrong in law and in fact in holding that the first defendant did not have a right under community law to travel abroad to obtain an abortion.
16. That the learned trial judge was wrong in law and in fact in holding that the Eighth Amendment to the Constitution and the legal consequences flowing from it amounted to a derogation on grounds of public policy by Ireland from the principles of community law permitting the first defendant to travel abroad to another state within the European Community to obtain and receive services there.
17. That the learned trial judge was wrong in law and in fact in holding that the concept policy as applied to the laws of the Community relating to the freedom of movement of workers could be applied in relation to the freedoms to provide and to receive services under Articles 59 and 60 of the Treaty of Rome and the other measures giving effect thereto.

Lumen

Marcusm wrote: »

One thing we Irish citizens have going against us is that article 4 which permits the right to exit a country cannot be pleaded by nationals of the particular member state. Nevertheless, if Ireland is open to entry, it is hard to justify (under our own constitution) the right to detain within the country.

That's interesting, that you have no right to leave your own country.

Chuck Norris 2021

Has there been any mention of removing European countries from MHQ? Plenty of European countries with higher case numbers than some of those on there at the moment? I'm due to travel to Italy in July, starting to wonder when it will be removed, and if they are going to clarify the parameters for adding or removing countries.

dalyboy

Wow.
Today’s rain is a real wake up call for staycations in Ireland.

Picture this ....

4 star hotel.
Peeing rain outside
Unable to access pool or gym because of hotel scheduling.
Unable to get a beer or coffee because of constant water falling from the sky.
The kids screaming “I’m bored”

All for the bargain price of €300 per night .

Riiight !

wcooba

Lumen wrote: »

That's interesting, that you have no right to leave your own country.

Right to leave your own country is a fundamental freedom (Protocol 4 / Article 2 of ECHR).

This right can be curtailed on public health grounds , but as others pointed out such restrictions must be proportionate and necessary. I think it’s highly arguable if they are...

TomSweeney

CruelSummer wrote: »

Some of the posters on this thread seem terrified of the prospect that the Digital Green Cert will be a reality come mid July. What remains to be seen is what terms and conditions will be in place re testing/vaccination requirements. That will become clear in June as a huge number of vaccines will have been administered in the bloc.
It's an absolute no brainer to adopt this policy and begin to welcome tourists to these shores once again, while also allowing Irish people travel to theirs. It's understandable many people have booked staycations and will stick to them this year, between time limits of summer holidays and hassle free breaks, it's just not going to be a runner for a lot of families in particular. This is hard on middle income Ireland who may possibly lose thousands on holidays abroad that were postponed last year, especially if they won't be given the option to postpone it again due to the Green Cert issuance. Some who've bookings might find a way to go and recoup their losses rather than be left out of pocket to the tune of thousands of Euro, there's a lot of anger about this situation out there. Many hotel/campsite vouchers will expire this summer for European destinations that were issued last year to Irish people. The Government should help make this happen, at least be seen to give the option and help its citizens instead of the nonsensical demonisation of anyone going on a plane.
If the situation in the US continues to improve, reopening borders to vaccinated travellers should also be allowed, using either EMA or FDA approved vaccines. This will help our economic plight no end. If things Covid wise do take off towards Autumn, which is highly likely - there's always the option now to pull the emergency break, pull up the drawbridge temporarily and let the wave pass.

Agree with this problem is some places are still demanding tests even for vaccinated people.


utter lunacy.

beggars_bush

LarryBird wrote: »

There isn't a chance this summer will be normal or anywhere near it for travel. They will keep the country more or less locked down until September and the kids going back to school to encourage families to stay home. The price of holidaying in Ireland is absolutely unattainable for most working families and it's more or an ordeal than a holiday anyway.

Not true.
Houses were available to rent this summer for €500 per week in many coastal counties

beggars_bush

dalyboy wrote: »

Wow.
Today’s rain is a real wake up call for staycations in Ireland.

Picture this ....

4 star hotel.
Peeing rain outside
Unable to access pool or gym because of hotel scheduling.
Unable to get a beer or coffee because of constant water falling from the sky.
The kids screaming “I’m bored”

All for the bargain price of €300 per night .

Riiight !

You seem very fixated on €300 per night.
If your hotel was bedside the sea you could go for a dip or surfing lesson as it's always open

dalyboy

beggars_bush wrote: »

You seem very fixated on €300 per night.
If your hotel was bedside the sea you could go for a dip or surfing lesson as it's always open

Sorry beggars.
No matter what way you try and dress up a turd it’s really still a turd.
When it comes to the prospect of Ireland’s staycations it’s a very expensive turd

conal08

mmclo wrote: »

07.00 - None there at 5.30 am, were there the day before when I went to Randox and checked out my reasons and documentation with them while I had the chance, all good.

thanks. Probably easier to head up to NI and fly from there to be safer.

SusanC10

I think it depends on what you want from a holiday personally.

We have been using Airbnb-type accommodation for years with the kids both in Ireland and abroad and Eurocamp-type accommodation for France.
We have also stayed in self-catering Lodges on the grounds of Hotels in Ireland.

We wouldn't do Hotel Rooms with the kids though I know lots of families do.

We have 2 weeks booked with Airbnbs in coastal counties in Ireland in August for aporox €1,300 which was not too bad.

dalyboy

SusanC10 wrote: »

I think it depends on what you want from a holiday personally.

We have been using Airbnb-type accommodation for years with the kids both in Ireland and abroad and Eurocamp-type accommodation for France.
We have also stayed in self-catering Lodges on the grounds of Hotels in Ireland.

We wouldn't do Hotel Rooms with the kids though I know lots of families do.

We have 2 weeks booked with Airbnbs in coastal counties in Ireland in August for aporox €1,300 which was not too bad.

I’ve used Airbnb in France , Spain and Belgium over the last few years. Fantastic option. I reckon it’s better than a hotel this summer.
Your doing well at €1300 tbf

Lumen

SusanC10 wrote: »

We have 2 weeks booked with Airbnbs in coastal counties in Ireland in August for aporox €1,300 which was not too bad.

For comparison I have 2 weeks mid-August booked in a detached house with garden just off the beach in Côte d'Argent for 4600. This was booked back in early March. Plus another 1k ish for the ferry. That's normal for France in my experience, even a cabin in a decent campsite will be 1500/week in high season. In fact the nearby campsite is now fully booked apart from a couple of 3 bed cabins at 5k for 2 weeks.

On the basis Ireland is good value, if you don't mind the weather risk. Last year we did Kerry and it was pissing rain half the time. Although it was more expensive than you've paid this year.

Marcusm

TomSweeney wrote: »

Agree with this problem is some places are still demanding tests even for vaccinated people.


utter lunacy.

Fully vaccinated people are a relative novelty and the laws haven’t caught up. The interesting one for Ireland is whether a right equivalent to the “vaccine bonus” will have to be given to inbound travellers. I.e. will one shot of AZ more than 4 weeks ago = fully vaccinated. Clearly not on an EU-wide basis but if Ireland is opening up on a domestic basis by that criterion, will it be applicable also for inbound (including returning) travellers or will they be required to do a PCR test.

SusanC10

Lumen wrote: »

For comparison I have 2 weeks mid-August booked in a detached house with garden just off the beach in Côte d'Argent for 4600. This was booked back in early March. Plus another 1k ish for the ferry. That's normal for France in my experience, even a cabin in a decent campsite will be 1500/week in high season. In fact the nearby campsite is now fully booked apart from a couple of 3 bed cabins at 5k for 2 weeks.

On the basis Ireland is good value, if you don't mind the weather risk. Last year we did Kerry and it was pissing rain half the time. Although it was more expensive than you've paid this year.

Love that beach at Côte d'Argent ! We stayed at that Campsite a few years ago. Though our normal time is late June / early July for France. August abroad is out of our budget. Must confess to being a little envious of you this Summer though.

I booked the Irish Airbnbs over the Christmas break as a Plan B. Our Plan A was France. We got lucky I think as it was before the general consensus of staycation for Summer 2021

kilns

The rates in France continue to drop and drop. I expect them to be off the hotel list very shortly or will they be too lazy to update the list