Are we there yet? Your second Travel Megathread (threadbans in OP}

M_Murphy57

beggars_bush wrote: »

It'll stop the vast majority

Belfast airport are putting on additional flights in anticipation of increased demand from ROI. Meanwhile FF stick their head in the sand and pretend it isnt happening, watching money our economy desperately needs going to the UK instead of to our own aviation industry and by extension their employees.

themacattack.

M_Murphy57 wrote: »

Yes. Unrestricted intercounty travel from may 10th, fly Belfast to to UK and back. no PCR test required either way as its CTA , no fine for travel or MHQ as inter UK legal in that jurisdiction.

As opposed to flying from Dublin where you risk a 2k fine for non essential travel, and a £100 PCR test on return which if you fail or fail to produce you spend another 2k going to hotel prison for 2 weeks.

Travel via Belfast to UK post may 10th is legal and hassle free. Plenty of people will be taking it up, myself included.

perfect just wanted to make sure...the waters have been muddied so much with travel that theres always a little niggling doubt have you missed something...thats clear cut.

I think thats my plan for june sorted,would have liked to spend the week in kerry but only indoor dining in the hotel is way too restrictive...when i go on holiday i dont want to eat breakfeast lunch and dinner in the same place every day of the holiday...thanks

naughtysmurf

MM pretty positive re prospect of European travel on Morning Ireland a few minutes ago, he mentioned July & August also confirmed that we will sign up to EU green digital cert

Corholio

Corholio wrote: »

While Ireland can have certain control of restrictions, I don't think they'd have totally free reign without some EU watching going on. As has been said, it hasn't been fully sorted both ways.

The eu can watch an they like. We never gave up control of our borders and health regulations. We aren't in schengen.

People like to think that the eu can tell us because it suits their desires. In reality they cannot.

Once an eu citizen is allowed enter Ireland, work here and live here within whatever restrictions Ireland has, the box is ticked.

If I'm wrong, show me in any agreement, regulations or treaty that gives them the European parliament these powers.

Reality doesn't change just to suit me and believe me, I want planes back in the air and my ass on them.

M_Murphy57

M_Murphy57 wrote: »

Yes. Unrestricted intercounty travel from may 10th, fly Belfast to to UK and back. no PCR test required either way as its CTA , no fine for travel or MHQ as inter UK legal in that jurisdiction.

As opposed to flying from Dublin where you risk a 2k fine for non essential travel, and a £100 PCR test on return which if you fail or fail to produce you spend another 2k going to hotel prison for 2 weeks.

Travel via Belfast to UK post may 10th is legal and hassle free. Plenty of people will be taking it up, myself included.

themacattack. wrote: »

perfect just wanted to make sure...the waters have been muddied so much with travel that theres always a little niggling doubt have you missed something...thats clear cut.

I think thats my plan for june sorted,would have liked to spend the week in kerry but only indoor dining in the hotel is way too restrictive...when i go on holiday i dont want to eat breakfeast lunch and dinner in the same place every day of the holiday...thanks

Legally, you are required to have a pcr for passing the border and quarantine at home. You are required to have proof of the pcr test for inspection for the 14 days. It's very clearly stated.

Legally, there's no mhq anyway as the uk is not on our list.

Legally, it's the exact same as flying direct from Dublin. Belfast to London is a domestic flight, nothing to do with the cta.

Don't get confused by what is legal and what is just a workaround before making your decision to travel as it's theoretically possible that the Gardai could check on you (I doubt it but stranger things can happen)

From citizens info:

"You must quarantine if you travel to Ireland through Northern Ireland."

"People arriving from any country without a negative or not detected (RT-PCR) test taken within 72 hours will have to quarantine at a hotel."

titan18 wrote: »

Depends on how many member states and who on what pressure will be put on. If we're the only one putting in measures to hinder travel, we'll be told to feck off.

There's no telling us to "feck off" unless you mean introducing the same rules in their own country to annoy us? They would need to be the same rules for everyone and not just the Irish. They can give us hassle through the usual diplomatic channels obviously and they can certainly remember it going forward if we look for something. Again, it's the way it works regardless of how I feel about it. Irexit is not something that would suit me.

Marcusm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Christ. Almighty.

They have no authority. This is just a suggestion. Ireland can completely ignore it.

There's not way tests will be free for starters

"Initially, the plan is for EU citizens and residents in the bloc to be able to use the certificate to avoid quarantine, testing and other obstacles to intra-EU travel that have sprung up since the start of the pandemic.

Member states, however, want to retain the option of those measures if they deem them necessary, pointing out that public health issues are their responsibility, not Brussels"

(https://www.rte.ie/new...s-travel-passports/)

Ireland cannot simply fetter the fundamental freedoms, in this case the freedom of movement, without extraordinary necessity. What is being agreed at the Commission and Parliament level is the standards which can be applied, ie test negative, have been vaccinated or have recovered in prior 6 months. Based on scientific evidence, this means that such persons should not pose a public health risk sufficient to eliminate their fundamental rights.

Marcusm

Marcusm wrote: »

Ireland cannot simply fetter the fundamental freedoms, in this case the freedom of movement, without extraordinary necessity. What is being agreed at the Commission and Parliament level is the standards which can be applied, ie test negative, have been vaccinated or have recovered in prior 6 months. Based on scientific evidence, this means that such persons should not pose a public health risk sufficient to eliminate their fundamental rights.

This has been done to death.

Freedom of movement ONLY applies to working and living in an eu country. No eu citizen is being denied that right. It's also not expressly written anywhere.

Ireland had always retained sole control over it's own borders and retains, as every eu nation does, the right to place reasonable limits on new entries.

May I ask what countries you have lived in and what limits they placed on you? I have obtained Spanish and German residency. Both had requirements I had to meet beyond simple being european.

The Spanish were deporting people at one stage!

Chuck Norris 2021

It's becoming pretty clear that the 2k fine will have to go sooner rather than later. If the government do want to maintain any form of border control, then it's the only way. The 2k fine must also now be illegal from May 10th as it won't be proportional to the domestic restrictions, as well as being discriminatory to residents of Ireland trying to leave, whereas citizens from outside can enter and leave freely. I think the Belfast back door will force their hand to do something, by easing the requirements slightly, they can grant the Irish their freedom while maintaining some control over European travel through pre departure testing, tracing etc that they will not get via the north. As for trying to apply border restrictions there, good luck with the current delicate situation. As for MHQ, it should probably be maintained, but Europe and the US permanently removed, so we can protect ourselves from the REAL travel risk areas such as India, and not spend their time inventing scariants.

Marcusm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

This has been done to death.

Freedom of movement ONLY applies to working and living in an eu country. No eu citizen is being denied that right. It's also not expressly written anywhere.

Ireland had always retained sole control over it's own borders and retains, as every eu nation does, the right to place reasonable limits on new entries.

May I ask what countries you have lived in and what limits they placed on you? I have obtained Spanish and German residency. Both had requirements I had to meet beyond simple being european.

The Spanish were deporting people at one stage!

“Working and living” are in relation to freedom to establish a residnece in another EU member state not in relation to travel to one in respect of which the freedom is quasi-absolute for periods of up to 3 months. The exceptions are for grave public, order security and health grounds. Because Ireland is now opened up to full domestic travel, it remains reasonable to require a test, vaccination or proven recovery. It is clear from the inability to apply MHQ to EU member states except in the cases of variants of concern that the fetter cannot be arbitrary.

You are absolutely correct that in the context of establishing RESIDENCY (beyond 180 days) that the member states are entitled to ask the EU citizen to establish the relevant criteria set out in EU law, ie student, working, independent means etc. These provisions, when applied to you in Germany/Spain, were in accordance with EU law.

The state in which I resides (U.K.) once tried to use these provisions to kick out drink and drug addled rough sleepers (a minor cohort but one which caused issues in central London) but were unable to do so without proving serious public security issues as the UK had not generally enforced the 3 month rule up until then, ie it did not require inbound EU citizens to register and prove their status.

Ireland has the right to control its borders subject to the laws of Ireland which incorporate the TFEU and directives! Ireland is not absolutely sovereign in the manner implied.

Wallander

France plans to open borders to US and other non-EU tourists from the start of June. Things really starting to pick up a pace internationally:

https://www.thelocal.fr/20210429/latest-france-set-to-reopen-borders-to-american-tourists-from-june-9th/

Happydays2020

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

This has been done to death.

Freedom of movement ONLY applies to working and living in an eu country. No eu citizen is being denied that right. It's also not expressly written anywhere.

Ireland had always retained sole control over it's own borders and retains, as every eu nation does, the right to place reasonable limits on new entries.

May I ask what countries you have lived in and what limits they placed on you? I have obtained Spanish and German residency. Both had requirements I had to meet beyond simple being european.

The Spanish were deporting people at one stage!

Article 45

Freedom of movement and of residence

1. Every citizen of the Union has the right to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States.

2. Freedom of movement and residence may be granted, in accordance with the Treaties, to nationals of third countries legally resident in the territory of a Member State.

pouladuff_goal

Chuck Norris 2021 wrote: »

It's becoming pretty clear that the 2k fine will have to go sooner rather than later. If the government do want to maintain any form of border control, then it's the only way. The 2k fine must also now be illegal from May 10th as it won't be proportional to the domestic restrictions, as well as being discriminatory to residents of Ireland trying to leave, whereas citizens from outside can enter and leave freely. I think the Belfast back door will force their hand to do something, by easing the requirements slightly, they can grant the Irish their freedom while maintaining some control over European travel through pre departure testing, tracing etc that they will not get via the north. As for trying to apply border restrictions there, good luck with the current delicate situation. As for MHQ, it should probably be maintained, but Europe and the US permanently removed, so we can protect ourselves from the REAL travel risk areas such as India, and not spend their time inventing scariants.

India is not a risk. Our experts have looked at India and decided it is not necessary to lock up travellers. India is fine. You clearly have no clue. I trust our experts.

The real problems are countries like Wallis & Futuna. They are a serious danger. They may have only had 5 cases of COVID in the past 2 weeks (a few million fewer than India). However they are on the list. I trust our experts have studied each of those 5 cases and made the correct decision. Any visitors from there may have been in contact with those 5 and are a serious threat.

Marcusm

Marcusm wrote: »

“Working and living” are in relation to freedom to establish a residnece in another EU member state not in relation to travel to one in respect of which the freedom is quasi-absolute for periods of up to 3 months. The exceptions are for grave public, order security and health grounds. Because Ireland is now opened up to full domestic travel, it remains reasonable to require a test, vaccination or proven recovery. It is clear from the inability to apply MHQ to EU member states except in the cases of variants of concern that the fetter cannot be arbitrary.

You are absolutely correct that in the context of establishing RESIDENCY (beyond 180 days) that the member states are entitled to ask the EU citizen to establish the relevant criteria set out in EU law, ie student, working, independent means etc. These provisions, when applied to you in Germany/Spain, were in accordance with EU law.

The state in which I resides (U.K.) once tried to use these provisions to kick out drink and drug addled rough sleepers (a minor cohort but one which caused issues in central London) but were unable to do so without proving serious public security issues as the UK had not generally enforced the 3 month rule up until then, ie it did not require inbound EU citizens to register and prove their status.

Ireland has the right to control its borders subject to the laws of Ireland which incorporate the TFEU and directives! Ireland is not absolutely sovereign in the manner implied.

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/147/free-movement-of-persons


Health is specifically mentioned and we are not, again, denying anyone from entering the state. The rules apply equally to all eu citizens.

We are not a schengen country and retained our border control. That's the simple reality. The eu cannot order us to stop requiring quarantine for all arrivals.

Again, I'm all for open travel but ireland will not be made abandon restrictions within 6 weeks of anything.

Gael23

What’s the story with the 6 week lead in period?

Chuck Norris 2021

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/147/free-movement-of-persons


Health is specifically mentioned and we are not, again, denying anyone from entering the state. The rules apply equally to all eu citizens.

We are not a schengen country and retained our border control. That's the simple reality. The eu cannot order us to stop requiring quarantine for all arrivals.

Again, I'm all for open travel but ireland will not be made abandon restrictions within 6 weeks of anything.

But what about preventing residents from leaving the country, we are literally prisoners? That's the part I really don't get?

Tenzor07

beggars_bush wrote: »

It'll stop the vast majority

Well, that's it exactly....!

The current travel ban items in place such as PCR's, Garda airport blockades and MHQ weren't in place last Summer yet most flights to EU capitals were empty, flights to less popular Sun destinations were also running at around 30% capacity.... was only the top destinations that had 70%+ load factors onboard.

No ones going to drag their families and luggage up to Belfast on the Bus to catch a flight unless they are going to see family abroad or are the adventurous sorts....

The uncertainty this Government has created is designed to stop people from booking holidays abroad, no firm dates for reopening, no confirmation that EU travel cert will be adopted by Ireland by xx. date....
They will wait until NPHET greenlights it, and by that time it will be August when many Families will be getting kids ready to go back to school/college..

Anyone else without families will be getting ready to return to the office and won't want to take a vacation in September...

So the holiday season will be well and truly over for most in 2021..so write it off...

Chuck Norris 2021

pouladuff_goal wrote: »

India is not a risk. Our experts have looked at India and decided it is not necessary to lock up travellers. India is fine. You clearly have no clue. I trust our experts.

The real problems are countries like Wallis & Futuna. They are a serious danger. They may have only had 5 cases of COVID in the past 2 weeks (a few million fewer than India). However they are on the list. I trust our experts have studied each of those 5 cases and made the correct decision. Any visitors from there may have been in contact with those 5 and are a serious threat.

And what happens if those 5 people got into Ireland via India, you wouldn't be so smug then :pac::D

Chuck Norris 2021

Tenzor07 wrote: »

So the holiday season will be well and truly over for most in 2021..so write it off...

I think once the airport surcharge dies a death in June, or possibly sooner as I believe it'll be illegal from May 10th, that'll be the biggest obstacle gone. I know not everyone can afford the tests and home quarantine but people are so desperate they may do. MHQ will end for Europe soon, the cases will go through the floor as they did last year, it's all seasonal.

Theboinkmaster

Tenzor07 wrote: »

No ones going to drag their families and luggage up to Belfast on the Bus to catch a flight unless they are going to see family abroad or are the adventurous sorts....

I disagree - I have portugal hotel booked for last 2 weeks in August and we (family of 4) are 100% going.

I will book my flights closer to the time but if I have to, ill fly from Belfast.

It's not a great airport but 1.5hr drive up the road? No problem - it could be either that or no holiday.

I'm 100% going.

Tenzor07

Chuck Norris 2021 wrote: »

I think once the airport surcharge dies a death in June, or possibly sooner as I believe it'll be illegal from May 10th, that'll be the biggest obstacle gone. I know not everyone can afford the tests and home quarantine but people are so desperate they may do. MHQ will end for Europe soon, the cases will go through the floor as they did last year, it's all seasonal.

Maybe, though I'd say unless pent up demand kicks in then it's still going to be a very quiet season for the Airports who are still €100's of millions in debt.

At the moment it seems like another Summer of BBQ's in the back garden unless you want to pay €1000's for a week in Wexford having your dinner outdoors with the sound of the rain to relax you....

Tenzor07

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

I disagree - I have portugal hotel booked for last 2 weeks in August and we (family of 4) are 100% going.
I will book my flights closer to the time but if I have to, ill fly from Belfast.
It's not a great airport but 1.5hr drive up the road? No problem - it could be either that or no holiday.
I'm 100% going.

You're the more adventurous ones I was mentioning!

I guess you have free cancellation on you hotel? And no flights booked so you're still able to pull back from your August vacation right now...

munchkin_utd

Taoiseach raises possiblity of holidays abroad and indoor pints in late July
‘We cannot stay disconnected forever. Ireland is a globalised country,’ Micheál Martin says

Taoiseach Micheál Martin has raised the possibility of holiday travel within Europe resuming in late July or August if the risks associated with Covid-19 are low enough to allow it.

The Taoiseach said that Ireland will participate in the so-called “EU Digital Passport’ and a high-level group in Government was working on the technology required, as well as working out how to implement it.

He said that as vaccinations programmes increased throughout Europe it could open up possibilities later this summer.

“As Europe vaccinates in sync the travel situation opens up. The US and other countries will also be well advanced at the end of the summer,” he said in an interview on Morning Ireland on RTÉ.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/taoiseach-raises-possiblity-of-holidays-abroad-and-indoor-pints-in-late-july-1.4552132

This is getting bizarre.
First Tony recommending opening measures that the government dared not imagine and now MM not demonising travel/ tourists/ tourism/ foreigners/ "hoardes of yanks straight of the plane spreading covid"

Donald Trump

Happydays2020 wrote: »

Article 45

Freedom of movement and of residence

1. Every citizen of the Union has the right to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States.

2. Freedom of movement and residence may be granted, in accordance with the Treaties, to nationals of third countries legally resident in the territory of a Member State.

So if I don't consent to a PCR test to fly to France, they can't stop me from entering? Is that what you think?



France also will impose charges and taxes on my airline ticket. I should have the right to opt out of those too? Even if I refuse to pay them, sure they can't stop me - right? Freedom of movement?

copeyhagen

Tenzor07 wrote: »

No ones going to drag their families and luggage up to Belfast on the Bus to catch a flight unless they are going to see family abroad or are the adventurous sorts....

have flown from belfast many times as the flights are always WAY cheaper than from Dublin. with the wife and 2 kids, both belfast airports, its a doddle. never got the bus though.

munchkin_utd

Donald Trump wrote: »

So if I don't consent to a PCR test to fly to France, they can't stop me from entering? Is that what you think?



France also will impose charges and taxes on my airline ticket. I should have the right to opt out of those too? Even if I refuse to pay them, sure they can't stop me - right? Freedom of movement?

restrictions have to be proportionate

Locking someone up in an airport hotel and charging you 1900Euro, is not proportionate , when outside your door theres over 1000 covid cases per week in Dublin allready out there, each infection potentially infecting dozens of people.

how is someone from Italy more of a danger than those 1000s of people in Dublin with Covid ? Enough of a danger to lock them up for a fortnight for €1900 ?

Donald Trump

munchkin_utd wrote: »

restrictions have to be proportionate

Locking someone up in an airport hotel and charging you 1900Euro, is not proportionate , when outside your door theres over 1000 covid cases per week in Dublin allready out there, each infection potentially infecting dozens of people.

how is someone from Italy more of a danger than those 1000s of people in Dublin with Covid ? Enough of a danger to lock them up for a fortnight for €1900 ?

I am merely pointing out to HappyDays that his strict interpretation of that particular rule - that absolutely nothing can hinder or obstruct travel of an EU citizen between two member countries - is obviously incorrect.



Rules are rules, with or without covid. There is no provision in the rule he quoted about covid.

Multipass

Is there anyone here who has travelled back from the UK recently who could PM me regarding the PCR test?
It has to be taken within 72 hours of travel, but any 24 hour results tests are outrageously expensive. The ‘cheaper’ (hah) ones are all 48 hours which gives no leeway for any delays at all given the time of the flights don’t line up with testing times. I’d like to hear from anyone who found a reliable tester, or alternatively what the connections are like by bus from Belfast airport to Dublin airport.

M_Murphy57

Chuck Norris 2021 wrote: »

And what happens if those 5 people got into Ireland via India, you wouldn't be so smug then :pac::D

An India-wallisandfutuna mutant cross variant, the likes of which have never been seen! Better get under the bed now lads, those spike proteins are going to fuq things up BIG TIME.

M_Murphy57

munchkin_utd wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/taoiseach-raises-possiblity-of-holidays-abroad-and-indoor-pints-in-late-july-1.4552132

This is getting bizarre.
First Tony recommending opening measures that the government dared not imagine and now MM not demonising travel/ tourists/ tourism/ foreigners/ "hoardes of yanks straight of the plane spreading covid"

Not bizarre when you remember this uturn is exclusively because we have run out of cash. No other reason.

Happydays2020

M_Murphy57 wrote: »

Not bizarre when you remember this uturn is exclusively because we have run out of cash. No other reason.

Well - we cannot stay locked down forever. The most vulnerable will be fully vaccinated and relatively safe in 5 weeks time. Life has to go on. The PUP will disappear. Shops will reopen. People will socialise again. People will travel again. And life by the end of the summer will be normalising.