Do deeds have car space number on them?

to99

Caranica wrote: »

Just a thought, has the management agent for the development changed at any stage. I know when we changed agents next to nothing was handed over. I had to lend the agent my common area keys to get a set cut and send them copies of the various leases. (I've been a director of the MC since the developer handed it over, and I'm the onsite keyholder).

Hi, no fortunately it's been the same agent and company since the developer handed it over.

I think over the years, files have been lost, people have been asked informally to state which car space is theirs, lists have been created and our interest in the car space has been erased or lost over the years.

Evidenced by the MC saying that apartment x sold my space to apartment y and when I contacted apartment Y's solicitor they said that my space number was not their space but another number. So at least that's sorted.

Hope to hear back soon as to what's going to happen.

Assume at this point MC are going through their files and trying to sort out and verify who owns what.

TheW1zard

If the management company are saying X sold a space they cant on the other hand go down any licence or lease argument. They're admitting the property owners own the spaces. So they cant decide who gets what.

rock22

You really do need to take the advice of Peregrinus in his last post and confront whoever is using this space.

And I would certainly consider parking my car in that space until the matter is resolved. As far as your documentation states, that space is yours to use.

to99

TheW1zard wrote: »

If the management company are saying X sold a space they cant on the other hand go down any licence or lease argument. They're admitting the property owners own the spaces. So they cant decide who gets what.

Very true and something I was thinking about.

They were adamant that they couldn't interfere with car space numbers as people owned their spaces.... which is helpful for me as I can rely on their own argument.

But not sure how well that would hold up in court.

Peregrinus

The people who can testify that Space No. 1 was sold by the owner of Flat X to the owner of Flat Y are the owners of Flat X and Flat Y. On the face of it, the management company wouldn't have been a party to that transaction; how would they know about it?

They'd know about it, of course, if the terms of the licence required them to be notified of any transfer of a car space, or required their consent, or something of the kind. Which give's rise to a couple of questions:

1. Do the terms of the licence say anything like that? You've got a copy of the licence; read it.

2. If they do, obviously the MC is supposed to keep some kind of record or register of who is licensed to use which space; otherwise what is the point of notifying them of transfers? But, if they are, they should have a record of what space was originally licensed to you, and of what space was originally licensed to the owner of Flat X. The fact that they were apparently notified of the transfer of space no 1 and they didn't say "Hang on! That's not your space!" suggests that they have have had some reason, from their own records, for thinking that Flat X did have Space no. 1, and so did have the right to transfer it. I would press them on this.

3. A distinct possiblity is that, over the years, their original records of who had what space were lost, and they are now no longer sure about that. In that case, when Flat X comes along and says "I have transferred my space, Space no. 1, to Flat Y" they treat that as evidence that Space no. 1 had, up to that point, been allocated to Flat X. Obviously, Flat X was using it with no objection from anyone else. Also, whatever documents Flat X showed to Flat Y were sufficient to persuade Flat Y that, yes, Flat X could transfer Space no 1 to them, and they could safely lay out €25k on it.

4. These aren't wildly unreasonable assumptions to make. So I think there's a sporting chance that there is documentation out there to suggest that Flat X was the original owner of Space no. 1. If there is, you need to find out about it.

5. There is no point in pressing the management company on this. My hypothesis is that, whatever documentation or copy documentation the management company may once have had, they have lost. So they can't show it to you. Plus, this confusion probably arose because of a stuff-up on the management company's part; they lost the records. Or, they failed to take possession of the records in the first place, as a result of which they are now lost. Either way, don't expect the management company to be co-operative in bringing to light their own incompetence.

6. You have to pursue the person who is now using that space. Show him copies of the documents that suggest the space is yours, and make him produce copies of the documents which, he thinks, show that the space is his.

Yyhhuuu

Can the management company change the car park space to another one (when the title deeds do not identify a particular car space on title map but deed only states verbally in title document that there is a car park space?

Peregrinus

Yyhhuuu wrote: »

Can the management company change the car park space to another one (when the title deeds do not identify a particular car space on title map but deed only states verbally in title document that there is a car park space?

Depends on what it says about this in the deeds, and particularly in the car park licence. And we don't know what it says about this.

Yyhhuuu

Peregrinus wrote: »

Depends on what it says about this in the deeds, and particularly in the car park licence. And we don't know what it says about this.

I'm pretty certain that the Deed does not have a map with a designated car space, rather a car space to be designated by the management company. I bought apartment 3 as an investment. The surface car space number 3 was in a good location but a car was parked there. When I enquired I was told I was to use car space 23 in a less desirable location as it further away from my apartment and on a slope. I think what happened is somebody on the management company changed it to get their hands on the better located space. I did not query it as I'm not living there. My concern is it may devalue the apartment although not by much. I just thought it was sharp practice.

Peregrinus

Yyhhuuu wrote: »

I'm pretty certain that the Deed does not have a map with a designated car space, rather a car space to be designated by the management company. I bought apartment 3 as an investment. The surface car space number 3 was in a good location but a car was parked there. When I enquired I was told I was to use car space 23 in a less desirable location as it further away from my apartment and on a slope. I think what happened is somebody on the management company changed it to get their hands on the better located space. I did not query it as I'm not living there. My concern is it may devalue the apartment although not by much. I just thought it was sharp practice.

If the time you were told to use space 23 was the first time the management company designated a space for you, then nobody has changed anything. Space no. 3 was never designated to you, and was never yours.

Yyhhuuu

Peregrinus wrote: »

If the time you were told to use space 23 was the first time the management company designated a space for you, then nobody has changed anything. Space no. 3 was never designated to you, and was never yours.

Thst's one way of looking at it. I think that car park space 3 was used by apartment 3 before I took over ownership of apartment.

Larbre34

In my experience the parking space won't form part of any sale, just that membership of the OMC entitles you to have one space designated for your use and so the inherent value of "A" parking space may be included. The spaces and all common areas are owned by the OMC as a clg on behalf of its shareholders, ie, the home
owners.

That designation may be changed from time to time with the agreement of the OMC directors for any number of practical reasons, but at the same time it is up to the Directors to ensure that the managing agent cater for those obligations to provide spaces per the terms.

Peregrinus

Yyhhuuu wrote: »

Thst's one way of looking at it. I think that car park space 3 was used by apartment 3 before I took over ownership of apartment.

Ah, you weren't the first owner. That may make a difference.

If the deeds allow the MC to designate a space to each flat, do they also allow it to revoke that designation, and designate a different space?

If you can establish that space 3 was originally designated to flat 3, and if the deeds don't contain a power to alter designations once made, then you may have a case for saying that the owner of flat 3 — you — is still entitled to space 3.

to99

Peregrinus wrote: »

The people who can testify that Space No. 1 was sold by the owner of Flat X to the owner of Flat Y are the owners of Flat X and Flat Y. On the face of it, the management company wouldn't have been a party to that transaction; how would they know about it?

They'd know about it, of course, if the terms of the licence required them to be notified of any transfer of a car space, or required their consent, or something of the kind. Which give's rise to a couple of questions:

1. Do the terms of the licence say anything like that? You've got a copy of the licence; read it.

2. If they do, obviously the MC is supposed to keep some kind of record or register of who is licensed to use which space; otherwise what is the point of notifying them of transfers? But, if they are, they should have a record of what space was originally licensed to you, and of what space was originally licensed to the owner of Flat X. The fact that they were apparently notified of the transfer of space no 1 and they didn't say "Hang on! That's not your space!" suggests that they have have had some reason, from their own records, for thinking that Flat X did have Space no. 1, and so did have the right to transfer it. I would press them on this.

.

Yes, it is an express term of the licence that spaces can not be sold, transferred, shared etc without the prior consent of the MC.

Claw Hammer

to99 wrote: »

Yes, it is an express term of the licence that spaces can not be sold, transferred, shared etc without the prior consent of the MC.

A lkicence is always personal and can't be transferred anyway. It is possible that it is a lease but is called a licence.

schmoo2k

@to99 any updates?

to99

schmoo2k wrote: »

@to99 any updates?

I got the space back.

Got it in writing.

And I didn't pursue whether or not they had leased it out.

Put my signs up and no bother ever since.

schmoo2k

to99 wrote: »

I got the space back.

Got it in writing.

And I didn't pursue whether or not they had leased it out.

Put my signs up and no bother ever since.

Happy days! Thanks for the update...

punisher5112

to99 wrote: »

I got the space back.

Got it in writing.

And I didn't pursue whether or not they had leased it out.

Put my signs up and no bother ever since.

That's brilliant, such a pain you had to fight for what was yours...

Happy parking...

ted1

to99 wrote: »

I got the space back.

Got it in writing.

And I didn't pursue whether or not they had leased it out.

Put my signs up and no bother ever since.

Are you out of pocket ?

to99

ted1 wrote: »

Are you out of pocket ?

Yes.

But I don't really care.

The whole thing was stressful enough.

I got what I wanted and left it at that.