Do deeds have car space number on them?

to99

OK I'm going to leave a letter into apartment Y and the apartment that allegedly sold the space to Y and I'm going to put a sign up on the space to contact the management company and/or my solicitor.

Update: That's done. Letters in. Sign up. Let the building care taker know. I also contacted the estate agent.

GerardKeating

to99 wrote: »

The management company told me that Apartment X sold that space (my space) to Apartment Y because Apartment X owned 2 car spaces...

When did the aledged sale take place, was it more that 12 years ago?

to99

GerardKeating wrote: »

When did the aledged sale take place, was it more that 12 years ago?

I have no idea. Await further details from the management company.

Adverse possession of my car space is worrisome but I have parked there over the years and I pay an annual car space maintenance. It's only in the last 2 years that it seems occupied more frequently.

I bought my apartment more than 12 years ago though.

blackbox

I think that to claim adverse possession, the person would need to have had exclusive use of it over the period.

thegetawaycar

OP just park in the space immediately, whoever is buying the other apartment that believes they are getting your space will see it is already in use and can take it up with the management company.

I don't see any dispute with the person who is parking in it at the moment since you don't seem to have confronted them, it could easily be a case of the management company chancing their arm and one of the board using it/family member or a friend etc...

Park in your space and leave your contact details on the dash, if someone contacts you then tell them your solicitor has already cleared it up with the management company and the space came with your apartment. Refer them to the management company manage the car park allocations.

Claw Hammer

Caranica wrote: »

I'd argue that the management company are the ones to tell Flat Y. Remember the management company issue documentation as part of the sale of a property in a managed development, they would have vouched for the accuracy of the data provided. So the management company are responsible for this situation, at least in part.

In a lot of cases, the original developer provides all the documentation, with the transfer to the management company taking place after the last unit is sold. In some cases the management company joins in a deed with the purchaser at the start but the documentation is all produced by the developer. Many management companies don't have physical counterparts of the leases for the units.

to99

Minor update. I heard back from the solicitor of the apartment that is sale agreed and the car space included in that sale is NOT the same number as mine.

So, that's one hurdle cleared.

The numbers are however, very similar.

3DataModem

It may not be on the deeds, but it may be in the contract.

I owned a house with a designated space, and the contract had the map but the deeds did not. Weird.
I owned an apartment with a designated space which was numbered in the deeds, but no location specified. This was important as I bought off the plans and moved the space away from a pillar so mine was only one of only a few where the parking space was not the same number as the apartment.

3DataModem

to99 wrote: »

Minor update. I heard back from the solicitor of the apartment that is sale agreed and the car space included in that sale is NOT the same number as mine.

So, that's one hurdle cleared.

The numbers are however, very similar.

Makes sense. Perhaps they did the same as me. I was given apartment 20 and space 20 but on signing I asked to switch to space 21 and the contract was altered accordingly (and my solicitor got an undertaking that apartment 21 did not appear on anyone else's contract!).

Tip for apartment purchasers: avoid ones with ducting above or a pillar adjacent.

yabadabado

to99 wrote: »

Minor update. I heard back from the solicitor of the apartment that is sale agreed and the car space included in that sale is NOT the same number as mine.

So, that's one hurdle cleared.

The numbers are however, very similar.

Have you or your solicitor made contact with the person who is currently using the space ?

to99

yabadabado wrote: »

Have you or your solicitor made contact with the person who is currently using the space ?

My solicitor is dealing with the management company and I left letters into the apartments that the management company said are using/or used the space.

It turns out the MC was wrong about the apartment being for sale as currently "owning" my space.

So this could all be about mistaken number by the MC.

jamesbondings

to99 wrote: »

My solicitor is dealing with the management company and I left letters into the apartments that the management company said are using/or used the space.

It turns out the MC was wrong about the apartment being for sale as currently "owning" my space.

So this could all be about mistaken number by the MC.

Confusing from the mc. Makes me believe even more that they rented out your space!

ted1

to99 wrote: »

Yeah but the circumstances seem to be that the person currently occupying my space allegedly bought it off someone else in the building who claims they owned my space, when (allegedly) they didn't.

So, the "new owner" is not going to believe that they don't own the space as they think they bought it fair and square from someone else in the building. So they aren't going to go easily.

Now that I say it out loud... it sounds ludicrous :pac: I'm dying to see what document they have as title to my car space.

People who buy stolen stuff , don’t get to keep it. Their solicitor should have checked ownership before he let the sale go through

ted1

to99 wrote: »

My solicitor is dealing with the management company and I left letters into the apartments that the management company said are using/or used the space.

It turns out the MC was wrong about the apartment being for sale as currently "owning" my space.

So this could all be about mistaken number by the MC.

So are they going to pay your legal

to99

ted1 wrote: »

So are they going to pay your legal

Well we're only half way there.

So, while the MC may be wrong about who they think owns my car space, their records say I don't own it and someone else is in the space.

I do own my space. Definitively.

So, we're waiting on response from the MC's solicitor to our letter that they have denied us access to our space and denied our ownership.

fiachraX

Is there any public record where it's possible to see a copy of someone else's deeds - so in the case of this apartment what was in each contract for successive sales? Or is it only the owner (or bank if mortgaged) that ever has those?

Claw Hammer

fiachraX wrote: »

Is there any public record where it's possible to see a copy of someone else's deeds - so in the case of this apartment what was in each contract for successive sales? Or is it only the owner (or bank if mortgaged) that ever has those?

It would depend on whether the land is registered or not. Many apartment blocks are not on registered land.

fiachraX

Ah right - thanks. But if it was something like a house that was registered, the public registration would show the full set of deeds down through all the sales, not just a folio map?

Claw Hammer

fiachraX wrote: »

Ah right - thanks. But if it was something like a house that was registered, the public registration would show the full set of deeds down through all the sales, not just a folio map?

The contracts for each sale would not be shown anywgaere nor retained by anybody for loner than 12 years. The whole point of registration is so that there no no, or much reduced need to look behind the registration. The land registry has a mapping system with a diagramatic representation of the registered land as shown on the ordinance survey. This is of little use in the case of multi unit buildings.
The Registry of deeds has memorials for all deeds dealing with the property since the first deed was registered. the registry of Deeds only applies to about 85% of titles as the Registry of deeds is being phased out.

fiachraX

Ah - right. Thanks!

to99

I've come across a stipulation in our contract that could be problematic.

It says we are allotted car space no.x but underneath that it says;

provided that the Licensee shall always have the exclusive use of one carparking space, the Licensor shall be entitled to make and the Licensee shall at all times be bound by such arrangements and regulations for carparking and for allotting carparking spaces on the property as the Licensor may from time to time deem appropriate.

So, the management company could change the number allotment without letting us know?

kippy

to99 wrote: »

I've come across a stipulation in our contract that could be problematic.

It says we are allotted car space no.x but underneath that it says;



So, the management company could change the number allotment without letting us know?

You are a member of the management company. Are you aware of the operation of the company? Who is the management agent? Have you had any correspondance from them to advise you of any changes to your parking situation?
Did you solicitor clarify the parking situation with you on purchasing the property?

to99

kippy wrote: »

You are a member of the management company. Are you aware of the operation of the company? Who is the management agent? Have you had any correspondance from them to advise you of any changes to your parking situation?
Did you solicitor clarify the parking situation with you on purchasing the property?

No correspondence about changes to car spaces (that I recall) over the years.

Wouldnt I have to sign something surely for such a major change? Otherwise the licence with my deeds would be wrong.

Yes car space number was clarified and is in the licence when I purchased.

Yes to the other points.

runawaybishop

to99 wrote: »

I've come across a stipulation in our contract that could be problematic.

It says we are allotted car space no.x but underneath that it says;



So, the management company could change the number allotment without letting us know?

They cant do that without informing you, for the most practical of reasons it would cause ructions.

Peregrinus

OK, the word "licensee" is waving a big red flag at me, and jumping up and down. And blowing a vuvuzela.

It suggests to me that, while you may own your flat, possibly you don't own your car space; you just have a licence (which is a fancy word for "permission") to use a car space that belongs to someone else (presumably, the holding company for the block of flats) to park you car in.

In which case, your rights are exactly those defined by the licence — nothing more and nothing less. So the licence could well say "you have the exclusive use of whatever space we assign to you, but we can change your assigned space at any time if we need or want to".

I think it would be implied (if not expressly stated) that they would have to tell you about any change of assigned space. And from your recollection there has been "No correspondence about changes to car spaces". But in post #11 you told us that they identified a space for you (which you don't consider suitable as a car parking space). The dispute may come down to whether the terms of the licence allow them to assign that space to you, in substitution for the space that was originally assigned to you but which you didn't use and which, we infer, they may have assigned to someone else in the intervening years.

Now, I'm reading a lot into the one word "licensee", and your solicitor may be telling you something different. In which case, listen to your solicitor; he has read the entirety of the title documents, and I'm only looking at one word. But it's not unusual for the nature of a flat-owners interest in a car parking bay to be different from the nature of their interest in their flat.

to99

Peregrinus wrote: »

OK, the word "licensee" is waving a big red flag at me, and jumping up and down. And blowing a vuvuzela.

It suggests to me that, while you may own your flat, possibly you don't own your car space; you just have a licence (which is a fancy word for "permission") to use a car space that belongs to someone else (presumably, the holding company for the block of flats) to park you car in.

In which case, your rights are exactly those defined by the licence — nothing more and nothing less. So the licence could well say "you have the exclusive use of whatever space we assign to you, but we can change your assigned space at any time if we need or want to".

I think it would be implied (if not expressly stated) that they would have to tell you about any change of assigned space. And from your recollection there has been "No correspondence about changes to car spaces". But in post #11 you told us that they identified a space for you (which you don't consider suitable as a car parking space). The dispute may come down to whether the terms of the licence allow them to assign that space to you, in substitution for the space that was originally assigned to you but which you didn't use and which, we infer, they may have assigned to someone else in the intervening years.

Now, I'm reading a lot into the one word "licensee", and your solicitor may be telling you something different. In which case, listen to your solicitor; he has read the entirety of the title documents, and I'm only looking at one word. But it's not unusual for the nature of a flat-owners interest in a car parking bay to be different from the nature of their interest in their flat.

Thanks for that.

I'm waiting to hear back now from MC.

But starting to lose hope.

Re post #11 The Mc stated that they had no documentation that suggested we owned a space so they told us to just use the bad space. That's when I went and got the deeds to see what the documentation did say about our car space number.

TheW1zard

As an owner you should be part of the management process, do you attend board meeting etc?
Hope you get sorted

Claw Hammer

to99 wrote: »

Thanks for that.

I'm waiting to hear back now from MC.

But starting to lose hope.

Re post #11 The Mc stated that they had no documentation that suggested we owned a space so they told us to just use the bad space. That's when I went and got the deeds to see what the documentation did say about our car space number.

They have to give you a usable space, in any event. Some smart ass obviously saw that you weren't using the original space and took it over for themselves.

Peregrinus

to99 wrote: »

Thanks for that.

I'm waiting to hear back now from MC.

But starting to lose hope.

Re post #11 The Mc stated that they had no documentation that suggested we owned a space so they told us to just use the bad space. That's when I went and got the deeds to see what the documentation did say about our car space number.

If your hope is that the MC will solve your problem for you, abandon it. They will not. They just want a quiet life, and if you sit back and wait for them to solve your problem, that's quiet enough for them.

You have to solve this problem yourself.

And your beef is not with the management company; it's with the person who is using the car space to which you have an exclusive licence. The MC may have "stated that they had no documentation that suggested we owned a space", but if I understand matters correctly you do have documentation. The documentation shows that you were granted (at least) an exclusive licence for the use of car space no. X. Even if MC (or some other entity) has a power to vary that and give you a different space, or something of the kind, so far as you are concerned that power has never been exercised, and you are still entitled to the exclusive use of space no. X, and you need to deal directly with the person who is using that space and insist that they stop.

Only by this means will you find out what makes them think they have the right to the space, and whether their right is, in fact, stronger than yours. But until you're shown that it is, as far as you're concerned, it isn't.

I get that confrontation of this kind is unpleasant. Some people find it very unpleasant, and you may be one of them. But you paid €25,000 for this space, and heaven knows what it is worth now; do not let it go without a fight.

Caranica

Just a thought, has the management agent for the development changed at any stage. I know when we changed agents next to nothing was handed over. I had to lend the agent my common area keys to get a set cut and send them copies of the various leases. (I've been a director of the MC since the developer handed it over, and I'm the onsite keyholder).