Offseason 2021 - Trades, Free Agency, QB Carousel

eagle eye

Blut2 wrote:

Its a crude statistic but thats about accurate. Dalton is a slight upgrade from Nick Foles - not an awful QB, but nowhere near playoff standard. Hes a very good back-up, or a mediocre to poor starter, level in the NFL.

QB rating doesn't take the OL into consideration. How many seasons has either of Goff or Garappolo been sacked 35+ times?
Dalton has been in four seasons. His worst season in Cincy was his last one there when he had one receiver who could catch a ball for most of the season, that being Tyler Boyd, and around one second after the snap to get rid of the ball or get hit.

Garappolo has only had one full season.

Dalton is enough to win once you’ve most other things in place. Maybe not late in the playoffs but if the defense is good enough then he’s not the worst option for that either. Did Cincinnati ever have a really top defense?

adrian522

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Dalton is enough to win once you’ve most other things in place. Maybe not late in the playoffs but if the defense is good enough then he’s not the worst option for that either. Did Cincinnati ever have a really top defense?

Yeah in points allowed they were 9th in 2011, 8th in 2012, 5th in 2013, 12th in 2014, 2nd in 2015, 8th in 2016, 16th in 2017. They fell off a cliff after that but he played on plenty of teams with good defenses.

adrian522

adrian522 wrote: »

Yeah in points allowed they were 9th in 2011, 8th in 2012, 5th in 2013, 12th in 2014, 2nd in 2015, 8th in 2016, 16th in 2017. They fell off a cliff after that but he played on plenty of teams with good defenses.

Not outstanding though. Don’t get me wrong, they’ll need Ravens Dilfer levels but they are constantly a top end defense and have a steady enough QB now to go after a few pieces to make them outstanding.

Foxtrol

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Dalton is enough to win once you’ve most other things in place. Maybe not late in the playoffs but if the defense is good enough then he’s not the worst option for that either. Did Cincinnati ever have a really top defense?

I'd upgrade that to Dalton needing to have everything else in place and I don't see that being the case with the Bears.

Even if Robinson shows up next season, the Bears are a step down in skill players than what Dalton had at the Cowboys last year, where he didn't set the world on fire. I've let me feelings about Nagy be known here, so I also don't see the offense coaching approach being better either.

Foxtrol

Foxtrol wrote: »

I'd upgrade that to Dalton needing to have everything else in place and I don't see that being the case with the Bears.

Even if Robinson shows up next season, the Bears are a step down in skill players than what Dalton had at the Cowboys last year, where he didn't set the world on fire. I've let me feelings about Nagy be known here, so I also don't see the offense coaching approach being better either.

I’d be looking at Cincinnati rather than Dallas. Most of them gave up before the season started because they hated McCarthy.

The_Honeybadger

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

I’d be looking at Cincinnati rather than Dallas. Most of them gave up before the season started because they hated McCarthy.

Offence was going fine when Dak was there, Dalton really struggled, albeit the line was a disaster with injuries and opt outs

el Fenomeno

AJ Green off to Arizona for 1 year, $8.5m ($6.5m guaranteed)

Blut2

eagle eye wrote: »

QB rating doesn't take the OL into consideration. How many seasons has either of Goff or Garappolo been sacked 35+ times?
Dalton has been in four seasons. His worst season in Cincy was his last one there when he had one receiver who could catch a ball for most of the season, that being Tyler Boyd, and around one second after the snap to get rid of the ball or get hit.

Garappolo has only had one full season.

Garrapolo's QBR is based on him playing 48 NFL games. Thats more than enough to rate him accurately.

That aside,

"QB rating doesn't matter"
"The fact Daltons never won a playoff game in his entire career doesn't matter"
etc

.. at some point you have to stop making excuses. Dalton's about to turn 34 early in this season coming, and hes never once in his career been a proven big game winner. Whatever peak hes had hes also past it at this stage and declining.

I don't think anyone is saying hes awful. Hes not Nick Mullens. But hes only marginally better than Foles/Trubisky, which is why so many Bears fans are so upset with this. Its just an unnecessary signing.

If they're aiming to trade up to get a top QB in the draft then Foles for a season to nurse him in would have been fine - theres no need to bring Dalton in as well. If they're aiming to win now, while the defense is good, then Dalton just isn't good enough. They're never going to go deep into the playoffs with him.

Oat23

Blut2 wrote: »

Garrapolo's QBR is based on him playing 48 NFL games. Thats more than enough to rate him accurately.

That aside,

"QB rating doesn't matter"
"The fact Daltons never won a playoff game in his entire career doesn't matter"
etc

.. at some point you have to stop making excuses. Dalton's about to turn 34 early in this season coming, and hes never once in his career been a proven big game winner. Whatever peak hes had hes also past it at this stage and declining.

I don't think anyone is saying hes awful. Hes not Nick Mullens. But hes only marginally better than Foles/Trubisky, which is why so many Bears fans are so upset with this. Its just an unnecessary signing.

If they're aiming to trade up to get a top QB in the draft then Foles for a season to nurse him in would have been fine - theres no need to bring Dalton in as well. If they're aiming to win now, while the defense is good, then Dalton just isn't good enough. They're never going to go deep into the playoffs with him.

Nailed it. Pointless signing whatever way you look at it. Not gonna win with him and already had a bridge QB signed.

It has put us back over the cap too so we need to cut someone before 9pm. A beat writer suggested earlier that it might be Kyle Fuller who is cut or traded which would be the cherry on top of this sh*t cake.

The only way they redeem themselves from here is if the Wilson/Seahawks relationship doesn't improve over the next month for whatever reason. Maybe he isn't happy with their FA signings or whatever, then the Bears call before the draft and say "We'll give you 4 1sts and Dalton on draft night" and they decide to go for it.

eagle eye

Foxtrol wrote:

Even if Robinson shows up next season, the Bears are a step down in skill players than what Dalton had at the Cowboys last year, where he didn't set the world on fire. I've let me feelings about Nagy be known here, so I also don't see the offense coaching approach being better either.

He got injured, came back and played seven games with a terrible offensive line. He played decent in a lot of those games despite getting sacked 17 times.
He got no time with the team.proor to the season and it's a complicated offense so.ut was going to take a few games to get up to speed so I'll disk as the games before his injury.

The one common denominator throughout his career was a poor offensive line.

adrian522

Define poor?

He had a top 10 O-line in 2012, 2nd best Oline in 2013, 7th in 2014, 8th in 2015, 13th in 2016, 28th in 2017, 27th in 2018.

So he played behind a poor O-line from 2017, but prior to 2016 Cinci had at least a top 10 unit. This is all based on PFF rankings, which some people don't like or agree with but the Bengals had some great rosters in this period.

Mr. Guappa

Rodney Hudson being traded to the Cardinals. I thought he'd been released by the Raiders but guess not. 3rd pick, with a 7th going back to Arizona.

adrian522

That's weird. You also have Goodwin going back to the 49ers for some reason. They had traded him to the Eagles for swap of 6th round picks last season. He opted out of the season so now he reverts back to SF for some reason and the 49ers have to send a 7rth round pick to Philiadelphia.

Because the NFL is the answer to your question on this.

el Fenomeno

The Bengals had a very good offensive line with Whitworth and Andre Smith at the two tackle positions. Not too many teams could say they had 2 tackles that good back then. Kevin Zeitler was very good on his rookie contract for them also at the same time.

Realt Dearg Sec

I don't think Dalton is a terrible QB, he's fine, but there is just no painting it as a good move. For one thing, even if you accept that he can succeed once you have a good OL and Defence, our OL has not been good, particularly at Tackle (we cut Massie recently but I don't see that we are going to improve at that position straight away), and our D fell off a cliff as the year progressed, to the point where we fired our DC, and again no guarantee his replacement will be better.

This puts us in a position where we will almost certainly be treading water again. Unlikely to suck badly enough to draft high, definitely not likely to improve more than marginally. Some scope to get worse based on necessary roster moves.

The only sense I can make of it is if they can offload Foles and then draft someone. But who wants Foles now? The other possibility, still being daydreamed by Bears fans online, is that this is a way of continuing to negotiate for Wilson without looking desperate. I absolutely do not see how this makes us look any less desperate in such a negotiation. It definitely strengthens the Seahawks hand in negotiating with Wilson himself since he now has one less destination to threaten them with.

nerd69

el Fenomeno wrote: »

The Bengals had a very good offensive line with Whitworth and Andre Smith at the two tackle positions. Not too many teams could say they had 2 tackles that good back then. Kevin Zeitler was very good on his rookie contract for them also at the same time.

Bengals had a very good line. They where also stacked at reciever. Realistically the bears are by some margin the worst situation dalton's had

Foxtrol

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

I don't think Dalton is a terrible QB, he's fine, but there is just no painting it as a good move. For one thing, even if you accept that he can succeed once you have a good OL and Defence, our OL has not been good, particularly at Tackle (we cut Massie recently but I don't see that we are going to improve at that position straight away), and our D fell off a cliff as the year progressed, to the point where we fired our DC, and again no guarantee his replacement will be better.

This puts us in a position where we will almost certainly be treading water again. Unlikely to suck badly enough to draft high, definitely not likely to improve more than marginally. Some scope to get worse based on necessary roster moves.

The only sense I can make of it is if they can offload Foles and then draft someone. But who wants Foles now? The other possibility, still being daydreamed by Bears fans online, is that this is a way of continuing to negotiate for Wilson without looking desperate. I absolutely do not see how this makes us look any less desperate in such a negotiation. It definitely strengthens the Seahawks hand in negotiating with Wilson himself since he now has one less destination to threaten them with.

It would make sense if the Bears knew the Seahawks liked Dalton and could then include him in any trade for Wilson - as there is no way Seahawks trade him if they dont have a QB they like lined up.

The fact there is a need to twist into those kind of conspiracy theory/galaxy brain logic to attempt to make sense of the move shows how poor it is.

adrian522

Possibly the Seahawks would trade Wilson if they were getting Watson in return or possibly Rodgers but that is about the extent of the acceptable options. Dalton was a free agent, if they wanted him they'd sign him themselves. Trade compensation would need to include a top 5 pick I would imagine.

3 or 4 1st round picks in the 20's or later just won't cut it,

eagle eye

adrian522 wrote:

He had a top 10 O-line in 2012, 2nd best Oline in 2013, 7th in 2014, 8th in 2015, 13th in 2016, 28th in 2017, 27th in 2018.

A top 10 OL in 2012 when he got sacked 46 times? 13th in 2016 when he got sacked 41 times?
I'd love to know where you are getting your facts from.

adrian522

From PFF. Not all sacks are the fault of the O-line, Russell Wilson is a prime example, causes a lot of the sacks he takes.

Blut2

eagle eye wrote: »

A top 10 OL in 2012 when he got sacked 46 times? 13th in 2016 when he got sacked 41 times?
I'd love to know where you are getting your facts from.

Russell Wilson has been sacked over 40 times for 8 of his 9 years in the NFL. Deshaun Watson over 40 times 3 out of his 4 years in the NFL.

Getting sacked over 40 times in a season isn't ideal, but its not exactly uncommon. Top tier QBs play through it.

eagle eye

adrian522 wrote:

From PFF. Not all sacks are the fault of the O-line, Russell Wilson is a prime example, causes a lot of the sacks he takes.

PFF is crap, check out football outsiders for proper grading of offensive lines.

eagle eye

Blut2 wrote:

Russell Wilson has been sacked over 40 times for 8 of his 9 years in the NFL. Deshaun Watson over 40 times 3 out of his 4 years in the NFL.

Those are QB's who run with the ball and get themselves in trouble as a result of that and it's not the fault of the offensive line. With a pocket passer it's a different situation.

adrian522

Right, do they say that Cinci had terrible offensive line play from 2011 to 2019?

Blut2

And how did the hallowed football outsiders grade the Bears o-line last year? Because I haven't seen it above #15 anywhere. Which wouldn't seem to bode well for Dalton.

adrian522

The Raiders are signing Solomon Thomas, one year $5m. Hopefully he fully recovers from his injury and has a good career.

eagle eye

Blut2 wrote:

And how did the hallowed football outsiders grade the Bears o-line last year? Because I haven't seen it above #15 anywhere. Which wouldn't seem to bode well for Dalton.

Not even top 20, thought they were better than that.

eagle eye

adrian522 wrote:

Right, do they say that Cinci had terrible offensive line play from 2011 to 2019?

Top in 2015, not in the top 10 any other year and below 20 most years.

Xavi6

Kyle Long to the Chiefs on a one-year deal.