Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VIII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

SusieBlue

beauf wrote: »

What you're saying is it was mistake to open up restrictions before Xmas. Couldn't agree more.

If you survived without those services before Dec there was nothing you really needed in Dec either.

Nah, I’m not going to bother engaging with you if you’re going to use tactics like that. I didn’t say or imply any such thing and insisting otherwise is just poor form and bad manners.

And that’s not for you to decide on behalf of other people, either.
If ‘nothing was really needed’ then people wouldn’t have rushed to shops, hairdressers, gyms and restaurants and there would have been no surge. It’s not up to you to decide what’s essential for other people. Not to mention being in employment is pretty essential for the half a million people currently on the PUP.
Taking away the supply doesn’t decrease demand, it just causes explosions of cases when they finally return. It isn’t difficult to understand.

FintanMcluskey

beauf wrote: »

A lot of people have never been healthier.

Since this whole argument is the needs of the many outweigh the few. It's just that it hasn't occurred to the people saying this that they might also be the few (economically speaking).

beauf wrote: »

...economically speaking...

This thread is about economics not health. Since the argument is let the fittest survive and the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

A lot of people have never been healthier . . . Economically speaking????!

This thread is about the sunk costs of lockdown and all that entails.

beauf

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

I think when behavioural psychologist’s become more vocal some people may understand what happened a little bit better.

Realistically, people meeting up is what the survival of the species depends on.

I see so in a thread complaining about the over dramatising if covid, over stating of the risk. You rock up with survival of the species.

francogarbanzo

It's unsettling how much "the ends justify the means" thinking is going on here, particularly with the pro-lockdowners (or anti-lockdown-skeptics, whatever you want to call them.) Since my human rights question was hand-waved away with an appeal to authority, I'll outline my thoughts below and I'd love someone to argue against it.

1. We have fundamental human rights. These rights must be observed by the state. These are outlined by the United Nations, as well as the EU - two organisations of which we are a member state.

2. Those human rights include the right of assembly, free association, free movement within our borders, etc.

3. Those rights are currently being violated by our current lockdown restrictions.

4. Violations of human rights are unethical.

5. Therefore, our current lockdown restrictions are unethical.

Regardless of the severity of COVID-19, the solution, even if temporary, should not be in violation of anyone's human rights. The whole idea of human rights is they are observed regardless of the circumstances, and regardless of any utility that would be gained by violating them. Either we have them, or we don't.

FintanMcluskey

beauf wrote: »

I see so in a thread complaining about the over dramatising if covid, over stating of the risk. You rock up with survival if the species.

To ensure that very survival of the species is perhaps much less selfless than sacrificing it to retain the comforts of a limited few?

beauf

SusieBlue wrote: »

Nah, I’m not going to bother engaging with you if you’re going to use tactics like that. I didn’t say or imply any such thing and insisting otherwise is just poor form and bad manners.

And that’s not for you to decide on behalf of other people, either.
If ‘nothing was really needed’ then people wouldn’t have rushed to shops, hairdressers, gyms and restaurants and there would have been no surge. It’s not up to you to decide what’s essential for other people. Not to mention being in employment is pretty essential for the half a million people currently on the PUP.
Taking away the supply doesn’t decrease demand, it just causes explosions of cases when they finally return. It isn’t difficult to understand.

Yes but they increased supply and it got worse.

No the govt and health officials decided what was essential.

It's not difficult to understand.

acequion

I have a question.

Without getting into my feelings about the latest targetting of foreign travel, I would like to know if the very strict clampdown is only because of level 5. Level 5 is effectively a lockdown where no non essential travel beyond 5km is permitted. And that includes leaving the country. Ok I get that. And presumably that's how they have the right to fine people. However increasing the fines to €500 just for leaving the country, but not for a very long journey within the country, how legal is that? And MM said today in leader's questions re people going on foreign holidays, “That needs to stops, that very clearly needs to stop.” Again what kind of legal footing does he have to say that? People are advised not to do non essential travel but it's not illegal. So how can they be so punitive?

Also, will this extreme punitiveness end with level 5, as in the fining of people travelling abroad? Without being in a lockdown situation how can they continue to do that? Will it just be whatever testing and quarantine requirements are currently in place?

I would like factual answers to the above please, not somebody finger wagging about foreign travel. There is enough of that at the moment. I'm also surprised that these measures are not being in any way challenged or officially criticised. Or maybe they are and I've missed it? Any clarification would be great, thanks.

Lundstram

beauf wrote: »

I see so in a thread complaining about the over dramatising if covid, over stating of the risk. You rock up with survival of the species.

The health of 5M people is a lot more important than the health of 200k over 70s. Harsh but that’s life.

The elderly in Ireland are treated like royalty, it’s high time they sacrificed some of their freedom and cocoon for the sake of us all.

Protect the vulnerable, let the rest of us live. Because what we are doing now is not living. It’s inhumane.

darconio

Italy, the country that according to the experts was overrun by the virus, was never locked down excluding the initial 3 months, they had and have zoned restrictions tailored according to the curve of infected. What I don't understand is how it is possible that they cannot implement something similar in here? I mean it's not rocket science, open the hairdresser and let in only 1 at a time, open the non-essential shops only for a certain number of customers: the way they are doing it I won't be surprised if people go wild next time everything is open.

Gael23

Is this a long term measure
https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0127/1193387-covid-ireland/

PTH2009

The government are already talking about 'new variants' emerging in the coming months and admitting defeat to them with restrictions been strongly suggested

Yesterday was a kick in the head for everyone and once reopening starts it will be chaos and rightly so

beauf

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

To ensure that very survival of the species is perhaps much less selfless than sacrificing it to retain the comforts of a limited few?

You seem to be arguing this is both mostly overblown out of proportion and a mass extinction event at the same time.

You may also be implying having a functioning emergency medical service is a luxury for a few sick people. I'm not entirely sure. Apologies if not.

ypres5

Gael23 wrote: »

Is this a long term measure
https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0127/1193387-covid-ireland/

it's actually astounding to see all these once liberals suddenly transform into the cast of deliverance with their blind hatred of the outside world. back to the 50's we go

Lundstram

Gael23 wrote: »

Is this a long term measure
https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0127/1193387-covid-ireland/

Excuse my unparliamentary language but they can go fcuk themselves if they think I’m going to be stuck on this hysteria filled island for the next year.

If the government in France or Germany came out with this sh1te there’d be full scale riots before the day was out.

I wish they’d STFU trying to predict the future, they haven’t a clue what they’re at in the present.

SusieBlue

beauf wrote: »

Yes but they increased supply and it got worse.

No the govt and health officials decided what was essential.

It's not difficult to understand.

They didn’t increase supply, cause we had none to begin with. They allowed a small amount of it for a short window of time and people made the most of it.

Doing nothing at all and keeping hospitality open might have had us in a precarious position by Christmas, agreed.
But they could have kept us at level 3.5, granted the cases wouldn’t have gone down so quickly but we would have stayed on a more even keel instead of having cases plummet down to nothing and explode to almost 10k in the space of a few weeks.
Ironically the option you are arguing against is the one which would have meant less pressure on the health service and less misery for society. Bizarre.

This just isn’t sustainable any more.
The longer it goes on the more the cases will rise with each reopening.
We had the longest and strictest lockdown in the EU and ended up either the same or worse off than every other EU country. That much can’t be denied.

beauf

Lundstram wrote: »

The health of 5M people is a lot more important than the health of 200k over 70s. Harsh but that’s life. ...

Why do you only get end up in ICU and hospital if you are over 70. Who knew....

Whatsisname

PTH2009 wrote: »

The government are already talking about 'new variants' emerging in the coming months and admitting defeat to them with restrictions been strongly suggested

Yesterday was a kick in the head for everyone and once reopening starts it will be chaos and rightly so

Reminds me of Matt Hancock saying the other day that the variant he fears most is "the one thats not been discovered". So we're locking down on hypotheticals now? Don't even think I ever heard the word variant and covid together until December 22nd.

It's mad seeing in the US, Biden say that "nothing we do over the coming months can change the course of the pandemic" and a lot of states that were very lockdown heavy, California, New York etc have now started opening up indoor dining and removing stay at home measures. The US seem to be moving on.

Lundstram

beauf wrote: »

Why do you only get end up in ICU and hospital if you are over 70. Who knew....

I was been kind saying over 70 considering vast majority of deaths have been over 83.

Keep clinging to the few middle aged folk with underlying conditions who died “from” Covid19.

Young lad stabbed to death in Dublin the other night. Should we ban all knives? No because that’s silly. Like your way of thinking.

Mr. Karate

Whatsisname wrote: »

and a lot of states that were very lockdown heavy, California, New York etc have now started opening up indoor dining and removing stay at home measures. The US seem to be moving on.

Isn't it marvelous what being near bankruptcy can do. NY and CA have been in dire straits for years. It was foolishness of Cuomo and Newsom to think they could keep up these lockdowns indefinitely.

Graham

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

people meeting up is what the survival of the species depends on.

whoa, too much hyperbole there Fintan.

You've been asked to stay at home for a few weeks, I don't think extinction is on the cards quite yet.

ypres5

Graham wrote: »

whoa, too much hyperbole there Fintan.

You've been asked to stay at home for a few weeks, I don't think extinction is on the cards quite yet.

I think few weeks is a bit of an understatement at this point

Graham

Lundstram wrote: »

Young lad stabbed to death in Dublin the other night. Should we ban all knives? No because that’s silly. Like your way of thinking.

Knives should stay at home, much like your good self at the moment.

doublejobbing 2

Deleted User wrote: »

Ones that are already definite is far high levels working from home permanently. So probably permanently move aways from the likes of Dublin. Can see things like mask wearing becoming common too tbh.

.

I can only imagine the productivity of WFH employees must be through the floor. Combination of apathy, hangovers, haphazard internet etc etc. This nonsense won't last and rightly so, it has been an absolute nightmare trying to conact, for example, any call centres during all this.

Windmill100000

Lundstram wrote: »

I was been kind saying over 70 considering vast majority of deaths have been over 83.

Keep clinging to the few middle aged folk with underlying conditions who died “from” Covid19.

Young lad stabbed to death in Dublin the other night. Should we ban all knives? No because that’s silly. Like your way of thinking.

I don't think we are going to see hundreds of victims of knife attacks going to hospital. Do you?

Lundstram

Graham wrote: »

Knives should stay at home, much like your good self at the moment.

Nope. I’ve a full time job and a life to live.

You stay put if you wish but I’ll make my own choices.

Graham

ypres5 wrote: »

I think few weeks is a bit of an understatement at this point

4 so far. That meets my definition of 'few'.

ypres5

Graham wrote: »

4 so far. That meets my definition of 'few'.

What about the past year of restrictions? and the way the government are talking the year yet to come because of some boogeyman variant they've dreamt up

Graham

Lundstram wrote: »

Nope. I’ve a full time job and a life to live.

You stay put if you wish but I’ll make my own choices.

how rebellious of you.

FintanMcluskey

Graham wrote: »

whoa, too much hyperbole there Fintan.

You've been asked to stay at home for a few weeks, I don't think extinction is on the cards quite yet.

If you have only been staying at home for a “few weeks” since last March you haven’t been following the guidelines

Kunta Kinte

Lundstram wrote: »

I was been kind saying over 70 considering vast majority of deaths have been over 83.

Keep clinging to the few middle aged folk with underlying conditions who died “from” Covid19.

Young lad stabbed to death in Dublin the other night. Should we ban all knives? No because that’s silly. Like your way of thinking.

Waiting for you to claim that his death will be classified as having died from Covid.:rolleyes: