Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VIII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

FintanMcluskey

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

He’s got the whole world in his hands



At least that journalist had the balls to question him.

How does this end without NPHET being disbanded?

Inventing fake arguments and ignoring facts does not seem to be the preserve of this thread.

CruelSummer

Boggles wrote: »

Keeping repeating something won't make it true you know.

But if you want show me the science on the vaccine efficacy in the over 65s.

In your own good time.



You might send a copy to the Germans as well when you get it.

Of course we are going further and recommending it for up to 70 year olds, some countries are not recommending it for over 55s.

I sense a narrative change coming soon.

Evil Tony demanding over 55s take unproven vaccine.

And round and round we go.

The data on the small group of over 65's in the trail was very good. It's currently being rolled out in the U.K. and the North for this agegroup. We'll soon have more information to hand on this from the UK - it also seems to reduce transmission by up to 70%. The NIAC's group and the UK believe the quicker the vaccines can get rolled out, the better.
It's not about Tony being evil, but clearly there's a big problem, if as another poster pointed out earlier there are 49 other members of NPHET and essentially it's a one man show. And now the NIAC has been given the exclusive performance - a one man show is in town and is here to stay.

Heard a Dublin based doctor backing up his 'beaches in the locality for the summer' remark on Brendan O'Connor - get stuffed is what I say to that.

Windmill100000

Hector Savage wrote: »

I'm wondering when even the lockdown larrys on here will realise it's all a bit too much ?

Tell us , in May 2022 when we are still in this position , still endless lockdowns with no end in sight, will you still be saying "yes it's necessary, we need to SAVE LIVES!!"

I would say that while lockdowns will continue we wont remain in level 5 when numbers significantly drop. We may be more cautious than Europe but we will be out of lockdown. Cant wait for some more normality I also think my stress level and general mood will be better than those on here that have been raging against lockdowns for the most part of a year.

Boggles

walus wrote: »

I think that Irish people were treated like not-very bright children by a paternalistic government, which implemented a number of lockdown and restrictions as advised by “experts” operating well outside of their own circle of competence. In simple terms nphet exceeded their authority and the government failed to stop them. Every lockdown represents a failure in leadership, as politicians hide behind bureaucracies instead of leading from the front.

Lockdowns are not primarily intended to halt the spread of the virus. If they were we would not be in the third one right now. The main purpose of a lockdown is to “flatten the curve” which has been said many times by many people. What has not been explained however is that total infections and deaths are about the same with and without the lockdown. Flattening the curve merely means elongating the curve. The peak load is lower, but the duration is much longer, and so the total cases and fatalities are defined by the total area under the curve, not by the height of the curve. With no vaccine on hand lockdown may in fact increase fatalities by delaying herd immunity and allow the virus to mutate multiple of times.

It has been proven however that a lockdown can help with reducing the burden on a health-care system by reducing the peak load. Some patients will die if they cannot receive prompt and appropriate care and treatment – I don’t think that this fact can be disputed. Still there are better ways of dealing with the hospital admission overload than by country wide, blanket style lockdowns. Those measures must be limited by location and time, and applied to those areas or counties that are most likely to be overwhelmed. What is a point of locking down the whole country because a hospital or two in one hot spot are having difficulties in managing the situation. Is it really not smarter and more efficient to transfer staff over to those facilities to help out just as they did in 1918 with Spanish flu, and that was some pandemic to be dealing with. Disease containment works beast when people choose freely to comply and can make their own judgment on an objective information of the nature of the virus and the risk associated. Implementing fines and penalties and enforcing the rules via police power is wrong, deeply worrying and counterproductive.

Nphet ant the government failed deeply in informing the public of the reality of the situation and manipulated the truth and induced fear that were to give the compliance required for this living with covid strategy to work. The pure fact is that such approach while may work short term, long term causes mistrust. You don’t manage truth, you tell the truth and treat citizens like their equals. It is that mistrust and fear that have taken hold that are threatening to break our society apart.

Lockdowns are measures that cause harm that is disproportional to the benefits. From immunity loss that comes from evading other viruses and bacteria that we normally encounter, through deaths from drug and alcohol abuse, suicides, domestic violence, deferred medical procedures and patient screening, to mental health issues from loneliness and isolation.

The economic effects are also staggering. The destruction of wealth, unemployment and economic recession.
And it is all thanks to all those epidemiologists and virologists who know very little of sociology, psychology, law, economics etc. Who were made empowered by the politicians who to put it colloquially – have no balls to lead.

No.

Turtwig

polesheep wrote: »

If I were a member of the NIAC, this weekend I would be considering my position.

Why????

You have made the recommendation that the AZ vaccine is safe for all ages but efficacy for over 65s is not proven in the data. Where possible you have advised the over 65s should get the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines.

The relevant organisations have indicated they will follow this guidance and you're now going to resign??

ujjjjjjjjj

Boggles wrote: »

Keeping repeating something won't make it true you know.

But if you want show me the science on the vaccine efficacy in the over 65s.

In your own good time.



You might send a copy to the Germans as well when you get it.

Of course we are going further and recommending it for up to 70 year olds, some countries are not recommending it for over 55s.

I sense a narrative change coming soon.

Evil Tony demanding over 55s take unproven vaccine.

And round and round we go.

OK so u are suggesting the German expert body is the body you suggest the Irish CMO follows and not NIAC the expert Irish body ? Strange.

The MHRA in the UK has recommended it for all age groups so if you are advocating following the Germans why not the UK it makes as much sense.

Holohan is not following NiACs recommendation which means he and the government are not following scientific advice in Ireland.

If you want to question NIAC'S decision as other regulators and competent bodies have questioned use in over 55's and 65's that is fine but that is entirely different to what I have been talking about.

Boggles

CruelSummer wrote: »

The data on the small group of over 65's in the trail was very good. It's currently being rolled out in the U.K. and the North for this agegroup. We'll soon have more information to hand on this from the UK

Indeed but not yet.

That is the Germans point and a dozen other European countries.

None of that is "going against science" like you claimed.

CruelSummer

CruelSummer wrote: »

The data on the small group of over 65's in the trail was very good. It's currently being rolled out in the U.K. and the North for this agegroup. We'll soon have more information to hand on this from the UK - it also seems to reduce transmission by up to 70%. The NIAC's group and the UK believe the quicker the vaccines can get rolled out, the better.
It's not about Tony being evil, but clearly there's a big problem, if as another poster pointed out earlier there are 49 other members of NPHET and essentially it's a one man show. And now the NIAC has been given the exclusive performance - a one man show is in town and is here to stay.

Heard a Dublin based doctor backing up his 'beaches in the locality for the summer' remark on Brendan O'Connor - get stuffed is what I say to that.

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/da62c-statement-on-the-approval-of-the-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccine-in-the-irish-vaccination-programme/

The National Immunisation Advisory Committee (NIAC) has recommended that, in line with the approvals granted by the European Medicines Agency (EMA), all currently authorised COVID-19 vaccines can be used in adults of all ages, including those aged 70 years and older.

NIAC has also recommended that mRNA vaccines (Pfizer BioNTech and Moderna approved in Ireland) should be used for the over 70’s where practicable and timely.

The Chief Medical Officer has reviewed the NIAC’s recommendations and has advised the Minister for Health who has accepted the recommendations provided

.

Boggles

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

OK so u are suggesting the German expert body is the body you suggest the Irish CMO follows and not NIAC the expert Irish body ? Strange.

The NIAC echo the Germans.

CruelSummer

CruelSummer wrote: »

So how to you equate this with DeGascuns behaviour at Christmas, tweeting the U.K. variant wasn’t accountable for the spread here based on a sample of 130 cases out of approx 6000 per day on average. Clearly trying to undermine government decisions re Christmas and stir the pot is how I judge it. Holohan stated they now think the U.K. variant is responsible for 70% of cases here when they’re falling.

Do we need to go into Statistics101 again?

And can you not see how the more transmissible variant would become the dominant variant when cases are falling?

FintanMcluskey

Windmill100000 wrote: »

I would say that while lockdowns will continue we wont remain in level 5 when numbers significantly drop. We may be more cautious than Europe but we will be out of lockdown. Cant wait for some more normality I also think my stress level and general mood will be better than those on here that have been raging against lockdowns for the most part of a year.

Well done you

You obviously aren’t vulnerable to the economic catastrophe that will need to be tackled after lockdown

From one crisis to the next

Windmill100000

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Well done you

You obviously aren’t vulnerable to the economic catastrophe that will need to be tackled after lockdown

From one crisis to the next

Of course I will be. I pay tax like everyone else.

Having survived two redundancies and a recession in the past decade, this is just another part of life I will get through.

ujjjjjjjjj

Boggles wrote: »

The NIAC echo the Germans.

Not my understanding of and reading of it.

Germans state the AZ vaccine should only be given to 18-64 year olds.

I have already earlier posted a link to the NIAC statement/ advice and it differs from this clearly.

Boggles

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Not my understanding of and reading of it.
.

At this stage is has been pointed out to you several times your reading of it is remedial, colored purely by your dislike for an individual.

That's not very scientific is it?

Even the author of the article has come out and admitted she has no idea what she was talking about and the aim of the article was to stir political shíté.

Hego Damask

SheepsClothing wrote: »

IF we are in lockdown in May 2022, I will concede that things have gone too far. Until then, I'm not going to entertain delusional BDSM fantasies of permanent lockdown, from people who can't acknowledge the damage opening up now, or in the next month would cause.

Remember this time a year ago when all this was kicking off, people that said it would still be going on in a year (worse in fact) were dismissed as "deluded BDSM fantasy" lunatics.

Yet here we are!!

SnuggyBear

SnuggyBear wrote: »

Tony Holohan is a god. Let us all bow before him.

It’s more let’s not invent conflict just so some can demonise people doing a job.

Genuine criticism is warranted. This is just cluelessness

Kermit.de.frog

walus wrote: »

The economic effects are also staggering. The destruction of wealth

Yes but this was always going to be the case regardless. It is unavoidable.

It astonishes me that people still, even now, don't understand the gravity of the situation the world was plunged in to last year.

It was never going to be short term, it was going to a painful process and there were going to be serious long term consequences for society.

The only good that comes from this in the end will be that humanity will take these threats much more seriously going forward.

The world has paid a terrible price for indifference and negligence with just one of the threats we face, in this case a global pandemic.

It can't be allowed unfold like this again and lessons will be learned that if we don't crush at source, if you take improper policy responses to an initial outbreak, you end up in the situation we have now.

CruelSummer

Deleted User wrote: »

Do we need to go into Statistics101 again?

And can you not see how the more transmissible variant would become the dominant variant when cases are falling?

Are you saying DeGascun was correct with that tweet, and the sole reason for spread at Christmas was reopening rather than a much more infectious variant from the UK. A variant we only used a tiny sample to try and find?
Of course I understand why the new variant would become dominant now, I also believe it was widespread at Christmas - we weren't testing enough of our positive tests to ascertain what variant was circulating. To imply a new strain from our nearest neighbour wasn't widespread here when things were not good was reckless, political interference and outside of NPHET's remit which is to advise Government. The Government, as one other poster put it here re poor old NPHET & CMO - who are just trying to do their job.

The spineless opposition who keep trying to hang the Government for 'Going against NPHET' are a disgrace to democracy. They're supposed to scrutinise NPHET's advice and implement it with broader considerations in mind. The retrospective I told you so's and their obsessions to introduce totalitarian type laws getting to a unachievable 'Zero Covid' island inspires no confidence.

CruelSummer

CruelSummer wrote: »

Are you saying DeGascun was correct with that tweet, and the sole reason for spread at Christmas was reopening rather than a much more infectious variant from the UK. A variant we only used a tiny sample to try and find?
Of course I understand why the new variant would become dominant now, I also believe it was widespread at Christmas - we weren't testing enough of our positive tests to ascertain what variant was circulating. To imply a new strain from our nearest neighbour wasn't widespread here when things were not good was reckless, political interference and outside of NPHET's remit which is to advise Government. The Government, as one other poster put it here re poor old NPHET & CMO - who are just trying to do their job.

The spineless opposition who keep trying to hang the Government for 'Going against NPHET' are a disgrace to democracy. They're supposed to scrutinise NPHET's advice and implement it with broader considerations in mind. The retrospective I told you so's and their obsessions to introduce totalitarian type laws getting to a unachievable 'Zero Covid' island inspires no confidence.

It’s basic statistics, you don’t need a large sample size to draw conclusions on data. There will also be a confidence interval, but 160 is more than enough. It’s more than the numbers used to draw conclusions on the efficacy of the Pfizer vaccine for example.

It was before Christmas that caused the surge, and the actual impact of the new strain was over estimated because of the pre Christmas surge. It’s being revised down to more like 30% rather than 70%

FintanMcluskey

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Yes but this was always going to be the case regardless. It is unavoidable.

It astonishes me that people still, even now, don't understand the gravity of the situation the world was plunged in to last year.

It was never going to be short term, it was going to a painful process and there were going to be serious long term consequences for society.

The only good that comes from this in the end will be that humanity will take these threats much more seriously going forward.

The world has paid a terrible price for indifference and negligence with just one of the threats we face, in this case a global pandemic.

It can't be allowed unfold like this again and lessons will be learned that if we don't crush at source, if you take improper policy responses to an initial outbreak, you end up in the situation we have now.

About 3 million children under the age of 5 die each year. Easily preventable deaths.

So despite the rubbish above, Covid is still a first world illness and first world lives will be prolonged at all costs, even if it comes at a cost of lives in the 3rd world.

walus

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Yes but this was always going to be the case regardless. It is unavoidable.

It astonishes me that people still, even now, don't understand the gravity of the situation the world was plunged in to last year.

It was never going to be short term, it was going to a painful process and there were going to be serious long term consequences for society.

The only good that comes from this in the end will be that humanity will take these threats much more seriously going forward.

The world has paid a terrible price for indifference and negligence with just one of the threats we face, in this case a global pandemic.

It can't be allowed unfold like this again and lessons will be learned that if we don't crush at source, if you take improper policy responses to an initial outbreak, you end up in the situation we have now.

You do realise that it is not a pandemic that has caused this economic hardship that is sure to follow, but the government that has chosen to implement this strategy of lockdown-until-vaccine? Blaming a virus for economic downturn and recession is a cognitive shortcut that has to be called out at this point.

Kermit.de.frog

walus wrote: »

You do realise that it is not a pandemic that has caused this economic hardship that is sure to follow, but the government that has chosen to implement this strategy of lockdown-until-vaccine? Blaming a virus for economic downturn and recession is a cognitive shortcut that has to be called out at this point.

You can open up all of society tomorrow. There will still be little to no investment, jobs will still be lost, the population will be sicker.

It makes little difference.

Some seem to believe that this country uniquely can withstand and counter a global recession despite being heavily dependent on foreign markets that are seized up. It can't. And we are suppose to do this how? By opening pubs and gyms?

SheepsClothing

walus wrote: »

You do realise that it is not a pandemic that has caused this economic hardship that is sure to follow, but the government that has chosen to implement this strategy of lockdown-until-vaccine? Blaming a virus for economic downturn and recession is a cognitive shortcut that has to be called out at this point.

It is clearly the pandemic that has caused this, given that almost every country has experienced a downturn. The only countries that have escaped economic devastation are those that followed a zero covid/maximum suppression strategy.

Arghus

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

About 3 million children under the age of 5 die each year. Easily preventable deaths.

So despite the rubbish above, Covid is still a first world illness and first world lives will be prolonged at all costs, even if it comes at a cost of lives in the 3rd world.

What do you think we should do from this point onwards?

walus

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

You can open up all of society tomorrow. There will still be little to no investment, jobs will still be lost, the population will be sicker.

It makes little difference.

Some seem to believe that this country uniquely can withstand and counter a global recession despite being heavily dependent on foreign markets that are seized up. It can't. And we are suppose to do this how? By opening pubs and gyms?

The path that the government has set us all on early last year, without even considering alternative measures, has nothing but exaggerated the effects that this pandemic will have on our society and economy going forward.

Necro

Mr. Karate wrote: »

His lockdown fetish has ruined the economy and ruined people's lives and livelihoods while indulging himself in the process. So Yes he deserves the criticism he's getting. That's getting off easy. 100 or so years ago he would have had his head chopped off [along with the clowns in Govt who encouraged him] by now.

Mod:

Threadbanned - seriously folks this nonsense is not ok.

walus

SheepsClothing wrote: »

It is clearly the pandemic that has caused this, given that almost every country has experienced a downturn. The only countries that have escaped economic devastation are those that followed a zero covid/maximum suppression strategy.

Which countries do you have in mind?

Idbatterim

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Yes but this was always going to be the case regardless. It is unavoidable.

It astonishes me that people still, even now, don't understand the gravity of the situation the world was plunged in to last year.

It was never going to be short term, it was going to a painful process and there were going to be serious long term consequences for society.

The only good that comes from this in the end will be that humanity will take these threats much more seriously going forward.

The world has paid a terrible price for indifference and negligence with just one of the threats we face, in this case a global pandemic.

It can't be allowed unfold like this again and lessons will be learned that if we don't crush at source, if you take improper policy responses to an initial outbreak, you end up in the situation we have now.

You would think this. The irish government are such idiots, they would have to learn the lessons all over ... I mean they are repeating same mistakes as the past bust, economically now...

pjohnson

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Any more ludicrous then yesterday when the same outrage ensued on the thread?

Wait till next weekend when it happens again!

walus

walus wrote: »

The path that the government has set us all on early last year, without even considering alternative measures, has nothing but exaggerated the effects that this pandemic will have on our society and economy going forward.

I would even take this further. Considering how deadly covid-19 disease is in comparison with a mother of all pandemics - Spanish flu, this pandemic would have caused a merely a blip in productivity, growth and economy at large should it not have been approached with conservatism, overreaction and a lack of critical thinking. The Spanish flu indeed caused serious hardship with businesses reporting a drop in revenues in a range of 30-70%. But that was a virus that killed an equivalent of today’s 150m people! If you think that cv-19 bears a comparable risk, you are living in a parallel universe.

You need to remember that this path that we are on right now has been formulated back in the early 2020 based on poor evidence and official deception. This strategy was based on assumption that 100-200k people were to die in Ireland alone from covid. Reality today is much different, yet we have not revised it and are not seeking more tailored approaches that consider time and location for restrictions. Mind boggling to say the least.