Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VIII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

Russman

dalyboy wrote: »

That’s what I said.

Any new protest tactic will need to contain a respectable element with industrial backing.
I don’t see our protests ever getting violent to the levels of Netherlands etc tbh

Never going to happen, most people recognise if we open up tomorrow the health system collapses within a month.

Loafing Oaf

dalyboy wrote: »

If we are to have effective protests in Ireland the message needs to be clear
One clear message . “REOPEN Ireland NOW”

That’ll require huge organisation and willingness from respected members of hospitality, tourism, mental health representation , fitness industry etc etc

WicklaBlaa wrote: »

When people, especially business owners and retail/tourism sectors, see the reopening in other countries, they will mobilise and begin to vocalise their dissent.

If I quote these posts back at you guys in, say, 6 weeks and nothing of the kind has happened, will ye accept that ye haven't a bull's notion?

dalyboy

Russman wrote: »

Never going to happen, most people recognise if we open up tomorrow the health system collapses within a month.

Once the over 70s are vaccinated this collapse threat evaporates.

average_runner

WicklaBlaa wrote: »

That was me actually and the article was in the Irish Times yesterday and is a very reasonable one.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/why-is-it-that-we-irish-do-not-riot-like-the-dutch-1.4472456

Basically we don't do civil unrest and are very deferent to those in positions of authority.

Many reasons for that:
1) The people who organizes the demonstrations do it at the worst time.
2) The crowd that usually ends up at these things, are not the smartest people in the world!!!
3) The organisers brings in all type of politics to these events, that actually alienate people from them

4) They never have a proper message, they are always watered down and the point gets lost.
5) They piss everyone else off by stopping them from getting home, instead of pissing off the politicians, hence the mood swings against them quickly.

dalyboy

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

If I quote these posts back at you guys in, say, 6 weeks and nothing of the kind has happened, will ye accept that ye haven't a bull's notion?

I actually agree. 6 weeks nothing much will change but say 12 weeks from now.? If the majority of our euro countries are open will we happily stay shut ? Nah

WicklaBlaa

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

If I quote these posts back at you guys in, say, 6 weeks and nothing of the kind has happened, will ye accept that ye haven't a bull's notion?

You can quote back yes.

There is a bit of hope in my statements as I don't want Ireland to just accept the current plan and extended lockdowns while other European countries are reopening.

I do really think once vaccinations programme is well underway, case numbers are down, hospitals under less pressure, the urgency to open will begin from those who rowed in over the last few months, while sacrificing the most.

When things improve, these people deserve to be properly listened to and considered.

PTH2009

Think we have to forget about this 'when the vulnerable and older people are vaccinated they can seriously lift restrictions' Thing

It's logic but no way will it happen because they will move the goalposts again. Already the narrative is gone to 'when 70% of the population is vaccinated'

WicklaBlaa

PTH2009 wrote: »

Think we have to forget about this 'when the vulnerable and older people are vaccinated they can seriously lift restrictions' Thing

It's logic but no way will it happen because they will move the goalposts again. Already its gone to 'when 70% of the population is vaccinated'

Other European countries will ease restrictions once the vulnerable and other priority groups are vaccinated. Particularly because the vaccination roll-out is slower than anticipated. The continent won't wait until next winter to open up.

The pressure will be on our government to follow suit and open up.

Those disproportionately affected by the restrictions will begin to speak up.

It's inevitable.

PTH2009

WicklaBlaa wrote: »

Other European countries will ease restrictions once the vulnerable and other priority groups are vaccinated. Particularly because the vaccination roll-out is slower than anticipated. The continent won't wait until next winter to open up.

The pressure will be on our government to follow suit and open up.

Those disproportionately affected by the restrictions will begin to speak up.

It's inevitable.

Hope your right but nothing like that happened last summer when we were 70% closed with almost all the rest of Europe open

WicklaBlaa

PTH2009 wrote: »

Hope your right but nothing like that happened last summer when we were 70% closed with almost all the rest of Europe open

We really can't accept this again.

hynesie08

PTH2009 wrote: »

Hope your right but nothing like that happened last summer when we were 70% closed with almost all the rest of Europe open

Please explain how we were 70% closed? From June 29th food pubs, gyms, cinemas, tourist attractions museums and non essential retail were all open.

SnuggyBear

Boggles wrote: »

Nope, I'm nothing like you.

But if I were I still wouldn't be encouraging people throwing paving stones or destroying peoples property from that room.

Where did I encourage any of that and by the way my job involves working with people and can't be done at home while posting on boards all day.

frozen3

WicklaBlaa wrote: »

Other European countries will ease restrictions once the vulnerable and other priority groups are vaccinated. Particularly because the vaccination roll-out is slower than anticipated. The continent won't wait until next winter to open up.

The pressure will be on our government to follow suit and open up.

Those disproportionately affected by the restrictions will begin to speak up.

It's inevitable.

We had nothing to lose then

We now have vaccines vulnerable to mutations to lose

Which means we have everything to lose

They will restrict travel to protect the vaccines imo

Idbatterim

dalyboy wrote: »

This is an iconic post.
Sums up the reality to a tee.
Every politician and every hard nosed , one track minded , sledgehammer wielding aiming to nuts , pro lock downer needs to read this and more importantly let it sink in.

The impacts of lockdowns are beyond shocking at this point. Cruelty is too weak a word for them.
Who or what government body is responsible for ensuring that the cure is not worse than disease/virus. ????
We should have been informed if this is even being monitored from day one.

I have probably the absolute best case scenario that I could have at the moment, in terms of work, living situation, personal situation and my head is sometimes absolutely done in with this!

There is only so many walks, runs, tv, projects to do (I am very active work wise and hobby wise) and doing the same things and looking at the same four walls you can stomach! What I wouldnt give for a week of normality, as a break and pause from this ****. We are where we are. The endline is in sight. It panned out exactly as I expected, in terms of there being no leadership and no proper plan here. I mean nearly zero deaths and cases during the summer months and everything shut.

Listening to those gob****e politicians, nphet, holohan. The fear craving mediarte in particular. Many of us will be delighted to see the back of covid and probably make us realise when things get back to normal, to never take it fore granted again! I would say there are many there that dread the return to normal!

They like the fear, the control etc...

Penfailed

PTH2009 wrote: »

Hope your right but nothing like that happened last summer when we were 70% closed with almost all the rest of Europe open

70% closed?! If you are going to fire out percentages, you'll need to back it up.

Don't Chute!

I think the biggest reason Irish people won’t protest is because in this country if you think say or do ANYTHING that goes against the self appointed moral guardians you are immediately branded an idiot or a simpleton or a scumbag. You MUST NOT go against your superiors. Catholic Ireland is alive and well.

Idbatterim

WicklaBlaa wrote: »

I completely get what you're saying but it's a very defeatist attitude.

We shouldn't just accept the above scenario - we need to positively come together look to other countries, our falling numbers and roll-out of vaccinations to vulnerable, etc.

and say right now we've done our bit, time to start balance other societal concerns and reopen the economy in a safe manner.

I agree with you lads, but with the vaccine roullout now underway, it wont happen. It there was still no vaccine in sight, I can see many saying enough is enough, come up with a living with covid plan. Wont happen now, the politicians took a gamble and the vaccine MAY have come just in time to stop people here, properly protesting etc, I think they will escape that, BUT I would be near a hundred percent certain, financial problems arent too far away as a result...

frozen3

Don't Chute! wrote: »

I think the biggest reason Irish people won’t protest is because in this country if you think say or do ANYTHING that goes against the self appointed moral guardians you are immediately branded an idiot or a simpleton or a scumbag. You MUST NOT go against your superiors. Catholic Ireland is alive and well.

It's how we have been educated for a century

Question everything dies at 4 years old in the western world, its beaten out of kids by first class

Responder XY

Penfailed wrote: »

70% closed?! If you are going to fire out percentages, you'll need to back it up.

In fairness - for a lot of people it probably felt like that. For me anyway 70% of my life was closed, no office to go to, social events such as Weddings and Christenings cancelled. No live sport, music. Pubs never opened (where I am anyway).

Don't think it's fair to call that 70% closed, but I can see how folks would have felt like it was!

aziz

Don't Chute! wrote: »

I think the biggest reason Irish people won’t protest is because in this country if you think say or do ANYTHING that goes against the self appointed moral guardians you are immediately branded an idiot or a simpleton or a scumbag. .

Or worse. A gemmaoid

Bsharp

I don't protest because I bend the rules to varying degrees to suit myself in any case, often privately or unannounced, much like the majority of people I know.

Restrictions will be lifted when a level of the population decide the risks have been sufficiently minimised and more overtly disobey the rules. It just takes the first in a family or group of friends to suggest meeting up etc and then rest follow. Reckon mine are about 2-3 weeks away from meeting up outdoors for coffee, having a kick around. The rules will slowly get bent further. The weather's still poor, and hospitalisations high, so everyone's staying put for now.

This is similar to last summer, when the reopening was fast-tracked because the government lost the narrative and updated the rules to match behaviours. The same will happen again. Big sessions and gatherings are likely to remain off limits unless the continent demonstrate they're safe to get away with. Most stuff will open because we'll be out and about regardless. Hospitalisations will either up or they won't, and if they don't then we'll continue to open up as much as possible.

WicklaBlaa

Bsharp wrote: »

I don't protest because I bend the rules to varying degrees to suit myself in any case, often privately or unannounced, much like the majority of people I know.

Restrictions will be lifted when a level of the population decide the risks have been sufficiently minimised and more overtly disobey the rules. It just takes the first in a family or group of friends to suggest meeting up etc and then rest follow. Reckon mine are about 2-3 weeks away from meeting up outdoors for coffee, having a kick around. The rules will slowly get bent further. The weather's still poor, and hospitalisations high, so everyone's staying put for now.

This is similar to last summer, when the reopening was fast-tracked because the government lost the narrative and updated the rules to match behaviours. The same will happen again. Big sessions and gatherings are likely to remain off limits unless the continent demonstrate they're safe to get away with. Most stuff will open because we'll be out and about regardless. Hospitalisations will either up or they won't, and if they don't then we'll continue to open up as much as possible.

So in Ireland we privately bend/break the rules instead of publicly challenging them even though we think they are too restrictive/conservative, otherwise we wouldn't be breaking them.

The issue is businesses, hospitality/retail staff can't privately break the rules - they would need to publicly challenge them which is not acceptable in our society where we rarely challenge those in positions of authority.

I think most people agree it would be ridiculous if Ireland had the most restrictive lockdown measures in Europe over the next four months. But that's where NPHET/government are leading us.

acequion

WicklaBlaa wrote: »

That was me actually and the article was in the Irish Times yesterday and is a very reasonable one.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/why-is-it-that-we-irish-do-not-riot-like-the-dutch-1.4472456

Basically we don't do civil unrest and are very deferent to those in positions of authority.

This is an excellent article, thanks for posting it. It amuses me that there are a great many people who try to discredit the claims of that article and also try to rubbish the grievances of protesters. They like to paint them as some kind of lunatic fringe who no self respecting person would associate with. Very untrue.

The simple truth is pointed out in that article. The Irish are deeply reverential and subservient to authority. There is a notion here in Ireland that the boss /politicians/ CMO/ Mr so and so down the street, even one time the school master, the priest and the local guard, all know better and they're right. And you're wrong and who are who to question these gods, do you not know your place! It goes back very far in our psyche and it's disturbing. Especially when you read that in Holland, well educated people are protesting for their right to freedom. Or read the rather charming anecdote about the Parisian lady out walking her dog after curfew and arguing vehemently with the police. Good for her! These people are not lunatics or retrogrades, just articulate, educated people questioning and challenging decisions which hugely affect their lives and which they disagree with.

Such a shame we don't do more of it here. But again great article. As an English teacher I'm going to show it and discuss it with my students. Maybe the next generation mightn't be so unquestioningly subservient.

JMNolan

And what I find even odder about that Irish Times article is that the state has been the enemy of some of its citizens many times, e.g. the mother and baby homes, yet we don't protest. I think the article on Dutch TV was one we should consider ourselves, why have our freedoms been taken away without any discourse or debate? Just a simple order via the government from NPHET.

I said it elsewhere and I'll say it here. Other European citizens will decide when Ireland reopens as they will protest and force the issue.

Bsharp

In my experience I think so yeah, not just covid, for all rules that people don't necessarily see as 'crimes', including the Gardai to a point. It's wrong, but being honest, I've part-paid a builder in cash to avoid the VAT, and I've worked with the public enough to know I'm not in the minority. I've lived elsewhere and we're slightly more prone to that approach here, businesses included.

I directly challenge the rules through contacting local TDs via email or ringing them up. We've a direct line to our elected officials which people don't utilise enough. My TDs respond and engage in discussion. Any decent TD knows what way the wind is blowing, they see it in their mailbox, hear it on the phone, or meet it on the street. For me not enough people use these channels and exert waste full energy on twitter and the likes where TDs don't have to engage in meaningful discourse.

Bsharp

As a populace I'd say we're subversive as opposed to confrontational.

Today, no one I know believe people in authority are a greater power. We were in school with them and they're nothing special. Rules are followed insofar as practicable so the fabric of society doesn't break down.

Malcomex

average_runner wrote: »

Well considering where the numbers were and the crisis in the hospitals, la strict lockdown was effective, it got the numbers down.


Now once we get into Spring, hopefully the numbers will drop and we can open things up.


If the South African variant comes here, you can forget it though, you can see how serious the UK are taking it.


South Africa banned alcohol sales as it was so bad there.

The SA variant will come here or is already here

How much of a problem will it be ?

VonLuck

dalyboy wrote: »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/extra.ie/2018/02/09/news/irish-news/number-flu-deaths-far-season-doubles-70/amp

My maternal grandmother died in 2018 in the middle of the worst influenza period recorded in years. Flu was the “cause” of her death but she was 100 years old the day of her death.

My own mother was extremely upset and so was the rest of the family. However nobody was blaming any of the rest of the family / friends / care staff nurses etc that possibly infected her with flu before she passed.
It was her time and that was that.

Amazingly nobody was asking for swathes of our industrial and basic infrastructure to be shut down resulting in unimaginable damage to the fabric of our social and economic existence.

Such action would have been considered unbalanced and disproportionate to the issue in hand.

The link above is from that period. It was 36 months ago NOT 36 years ago.
How we have managed to shift from logical action of then to now is beyond my ability to work out.

That's because the flu is manageable. Covid is currently not. If you didn't apply any restrictions the deaths would be much higher, and not just from Covid. An overrun ICU would result in the deaths of people who, under normal circumstances, could have been saved. I don' see that as being disproportionate.

Mr. Karate

VonLuck wrote: »

That's because the flu is manageable. Covid is currently not.

It has a survival rate of 99%. I'd say its manageable.

dalyboy

VonLuck wrote: »

That's because the flu is manageable. Covid is currently not. If you didn't apply any restrictions the deaths would be much higher, and not just from Covid. An overrun ICU would result in the deaths of people who, under normal circumstances, could have been saved. I don' see that as being disproportionate.

Flu hospitalisation led to hospital overruns in 2018 that were unmanageable.

https://www.inmo.ie/Home/Index/217/13443

We heard no outcry by ANYONE to shut everyone in their houses or burn a thriving economy to the ground and turn entire country into a near police state with huge entry and exit restrictions.

It’s wholly undefendable