Ireland is a pretend football country

Bobblehats

IAMAMORON wrote: »

There was outrage in the media about it.

Jorjingo is Brazilian.

As I said nil respecto from the fanzini's

That the fella who had to lose the pounds? They were callin him Gourgino at one point

partyguinness

breezy1985 wrote: »

The Spanish were definitely on the move in the 00s but it was rare for a top Italian international to leave.
But for any top country it was rare. The small English exodus to Italy and Spain in the 90s was seen as a strange and rare thing at the time

As a matter of interest I have looked at the Spanish squads at major championships during the 00s and how many of the squad played outside La Liga:

Euro 2000 - 0
WC 2002 - 1 (Mendieta was at Lazio- think that was a loan)
Euro 2004 - 1 (Morientes was at Monaco)
WC 06 - 5 (all in England: Fabregas, Reina, Alonso, Garcia, Reyes)
Euro 08 - 5 (all in England: Fabregas, Reina, Alonso, Torres, Arbeloa)

ROI I believe is the only country that has gone to the WC but with zero players from its own national league. All three times in fact.

After the Juventus scandal in 06 a few Italians moved to Spain like Zambrotta and Cannavaro.

Isn't soccer the only sport in which the island is divided?

Badminton
Basketball
Boxing
Cricket
Hockey
GAA
Rugby
Cycling
Rowing
Olympic Federation

are all All-Ireland governing bodies.

Howitzer the 5th

partyguinness wrote: »

As a matter of interest I have looked at the Spanish squads at major championships during the 00s and how many of the squad played outside La Liga:

Euro 2000 - 0
WC 2002 - 1 (Mendieta was at Lazio- think that was a loan)
Euro 2004 - 1 (Morientes was at Monaco)
WC 06 - 5 (all in England: Fabregas, Reina, Alonso, Garcia, Reyes)
Euro 08 - 5 (all in England: Fabregas, Reina, Alonso, Torres, Arbeloa)

ROI I believe is the only country that has gone to the WC but with zero players from its own national league. All three times in fact.

After the Juventus scandal in 06 a few Italians moved to Spain like Zambrotta and Cannavaro.

Mendieta went for a mammoth fee for the time (close to €40m) in 2001. Lazio had a gilded team at the time but he proved a disastrous buy. Played 20 games in three years and arguably sent Lazio into the decline they've been in ever since. He was imperious with Valencia before that to be fair. Neither Madrid nor Barca were keen to snap him up. Didn't stop him either way from knocking out Ireland on spot kicks in 2002.

breezy1985

partyguinness wrote: »

As a matter of interest I have looked at the Spanish squads at major championships during the 00s and how many of the squad played outside La Liga:

Euro 2000 - 0
WC 2002 - 1 (Mendieta was at Lazio- think that was a loan)
Euro 2004 - 1 (Morientes was at Monaco)
WC 06 - 5 (all in England: Fabregas, Reina, Alonso, Garcia, Reyes)
Euro 08 - 5 (all in England: Fabregas, Reina, Alonso, Torres, Arbeloa)

ROI I believe is the only country that has gone to the WC but with zero players from its own national league. All three times in fact.

After the Juventus scandal in 06 a few Italians moved to Spain like Zambrotta and Cannavaro.

Used to be that the the big 3 would would hold onto almost all their own and then add in a few from other leagues.
The change started when a good English team coincided with Italian megabucks and Heysel then came Bozeman, the Galacticos, Calciopoli and Premier League megabucks which really ended any hopes of protectionism for any league

partyguinness

breezy1985 wrote: »

Used to be that the the big 3 would would hold onto almost all their own and then add in a few from other leagues.
The change started when a good English team coincided with Italian megabucks and Heysel then came Bozeman, the Galacticos, Calciopoli and Premier League megabucks which really ended any hopes of protectionism for any league

The English first division and PL was very much in the wilderness from 86 onwards and pretty much most of the 90s. English players were generally just not good enough to play in Spain or Italy with the big teams.

Liverpool won the European Cup in 84 and no English club won it again until 1999 and then Liverpool in 2005. One winner in 20 years- obviously Heysel ban took out 86-91.

It was the massive influx of money that turned English football around rather than talent. To a large degree that is still the case.


"We are the richest league in the WORLD...!!"

partyguinness

partyguinness wrote: »

As a matter of interest I have looked at the Spanish squads at major championships during the 00s and how many of the squad played outside La Liga:

Euro 2000 - 0
WC 2002 - 1 (Mendieta was at Lazio- think that was a loan)
Euro 2004 - 1 (Morientes was at Monaco)
WC 06 - 5 (all in England: Fabregas, Reina, Alonso, Garcia, Reyes)
Euro 08 - 5 (all in England: Fabregas, Reina, Alonso, Torres, Arbeloa)

ROI I believe is the only country that has gone to the WC but with zero players from its own national league. All three times in fact.

After the Juventus scandal in 06 a few Italians moved to Spain like Zambrotta and Cannavaro.

Wouldn't Belgium be similar to us in that respect, having most of their players playing in bigger leagues outside their country?

WesternZulu

Deleted User wrote: »

Wouldn't Belgium be similar to us in that respect, having most of their players playing in bigger leagues outside their country?

I'd imagine they'd still have few players from Anderlecht and the likes in WC squads.
The Belgian league is decent enough, would be great if Ireland had a league comparable.

trashcan

partyguinness wrote: »

It was the massive influx of money that turned English football around rather than talent. To a large degree that is still the case.


"We are the richest league in the WORLD...!!"

Yeah, money which facilitated a large amount of foreign top quality imports, as opposed to the 80’s where the top English teams largely consisted of British and Irish players. Look how many of the top 3/4 teams in England now have a lot of British/Irish players, very few.

trashcan

IAMAMORON wrote: »

You can retain both national teams whilst having an all Ireland League.

That was my point.

Can you though ? My understanding was that a domestic league was a requirement for a National team. Anyway, can’t see a United league or International team this side of political unification, whenever that may or may not be.

trashcan

trashcan wrote: »

Yeah, money which facilitated a large amount of foreign top quality imports, as opposed to the 80’s where the top English teams largely consisted of British and Irish players. Look how many of the top 3/4 teams in England now have a lot of British/Irish players, very few.

Every year that passes the lower table teams get much less British/Irish also.

Even the Championship is slowly but surely becoming more international, for better or worse. In many ways it's not by design it's just the way it works in a capitalist system. I wish a lot more of our top talent would consider a move to the continent, places like France, Holland, Germany would be great places to learn and develop talent you'd think.

IAMAMORON

Deleted User wrote: »

Wouldn't Belgium be similar to us in that respect, having most of their players playing in bigger leagues outside their country?

The entire Benelux is a country. If you live in Southern Holland you essentially live in Northern Belgium. You can drive from Eindhoven to Brussels in 90 mins. Paris is a further 3 hours away.

There is a different tribalism in north western europe than you get in Iberia, Italy or eastern Germany.

Although the Feyenord Fans are different league. I met a gang of them in an Irish bar in Lisbon once, they stripped me bollock naked and burnt my jeans for the craic. It was actually more fun than it sounds, they reimbursed everything and made sure I had a good night of it. Who was I too argue?

partyguinness

trashcan wrote: »

Yeah, money which facilitated a large amount of foreign top quality imports, as opposed to the 80’s where the top English teams largely consisted of British and Irish players. Look how many of the top 3/4 teams in England now have a lot of British/Irish players, very few.

Well, it was interesting to see England pursue Grealish and Rice. No way that would have been the case 20-25 years ago.

partyguinness

Deleted User wrote: »

Wouldn't Belgium be similar to us in that respect, having most of their players playing in bigger leagues outside their country?

Looking at their 2018 WC squad they had one player playing at home. But historically Belgian teams at WCs would have had a fair cluster of players playing domestically. Anderlecht, Standard Liege, Brugge etc all have respectable European pedigree.


At the 2018 WC, Croatia had 2 home based players and Iceland had 1.


Still one more than the ROI at WC.

trashcan

partyguinness wrote: »

Well, it was interesting to see England pursue Grealish and Rice. No way that would have been the case 20-25 years ago.

True. Apart from Mark Lawrenson it’s hard to think of any other “English” player capped by us in the 80’s/90’s that they would have felt they missed out on. (I know both David O’Leary and Paul McGrath were born in England, but with them both being raised here I never really thought of them as dual qualification players, though technically they would both have been I think, without knowing the in and outs of UK citizenship. McGrath would almost certainly have got into the England team in my view.)

partyguinness

trashcan wrote: »

True. Apart from Mark Lawrenson it’s hard to think of any other “English” player capped by us in the 80’s/90’s that they would have felt they missed out on. (I know both David O’Leary and Paul McGrath were born in England, but with them both being raised here I never really thought of them as dual qualification players, though technically they would both have been I think, without knowing the in and outs of UK citizenship. McGrath would almost certainly have got into the England team in my view.)

I believe Andy Townsend was defo approached by Bobby Robson and asked not to declare and that he was on the verge of being picked for England. Townsend knew he would just up with 2-3 caps in a few friendlies and that would be it.

weldoninhio

IAMAMORON wrote: »

There was outrage in the media about it.

Jorjingo is Brazilian.

As I said nil respecto from the fanzini's

Was there “outrage” for his previous 26 caps?? A few hours ago they never played. You haven’t a clue what your talking about.

trashcan

partyguinness wrote: »

I believe Andy Townsend was defo approached by Bobby Robson and asked not to declare and that he was on the verge of being picked for England. Townsend knew he would just up with 2-3 caps in a few friendlies and that would be it.

Interesting, didn’t know that. He was capped for us while at Norwich if I recall correctly. I’d agree, it would have been hard to see him getting in the England team at that stage.

IAMAMORON

IAMAMORON wrote: »

The entire Benelux is a country. If you live in Southern Holland you essentially live in Northern Belgium. You can drive from Eindhoven to Brussels in 90 mins. Paris is a further 3 hours away.

There is a different tribalism in north western europe than you get in Iberia, Italy or eastern Germany.

Although the Feyenord Fans are different league. I met a gang of them in an Irish bar in Lisbon once, they stripped me bollock naked and burnt my jeans for the craic. It was actually more fun than it sounds, they reimbursed everything and made sure I had a good night of it. Who was I too argue?

Your post, while entertaining, doesn't really address my point. Belgium, one of the top ranked teams in the world, have most of their players playing abroad, and it doesn't do them any harm.

I don't think we need a particularly strong domestic league. We didn't have on in the Charlton years, and nothing has really changed since then.

I just think we need to get lucky and hope that we get a cycle of talented youngsters coming through at the same time. If we get the keeper Kelleher with Liverpool he would be a good starting point. Then hopefully a couple of strikers, Troy Parrot, Adam Idah, Aaron Connolly. If 2 or 3 more players establish themselves in the Premier league we could start to get a few results.

partyguinness

partyguinness wrote: »

I believe Andy Townsend was defo approached by Bobby Robson and asked not to declare and that he was on the verge of being picked for England. Townsend knew he would just up with 2-3 caps in a few friendlies and that would be it.

Apparently he was supporting England against Ireland in Euro '88 then playing for us against England 2 years later!

weldoninhio

trashcan wrote: »

Can you though ? My understanding was that a domestic league was a requirement for a National team. Anyway, can’t see a United league or International team this side of political unification, whenever that may or may not be.

Correct. The amount of European places available would also be diluted.

partyguinness

Deleted User wrote: »

Apparently he was supporting England against Ireland in Euro '88 then playing for us against England 2 years later!

I would well believe it.

Sure a lot of players from that era had absolutely zero affinity with Ireland and just wanted to play international football. Vested interests at play too- more money and clubs commanded bigger fees.

The likes of Townsend, Cascarino and a good few others were not Irish in the slightest but they played for Ireland but at least they gave it 100%

bullpost

Deleted User wrote: »

Your post, while entertaining, doesn't really address my point. Belgium, one of the top ranked teams in the world, have most of their players playing abroad, and it doesn't do them any harm.

I don't think we need a particularly strong domestic league. We didn't have on in the Charlton years, and nothing has really changed since then.

I just think we need to get lucky and hope that we get a cycle of talented youngsters coming through at the same time. If we get the keeper Kelleher with Liverpool he would be a good starting point. Then hopefully a couple of strikers, Troy Parrot, Adam Idah, Aaron Connolly. If 2 or 3 more players establish themselves in the Premier league we could start to get a few results.

The big change since the Charlton era is the influx of players into the Premiership from all round the world. This has meant much less interest in sourcing Irish players .

partyguinness

partyguinness wrote: »

I would well believe it.

Sure a lot of players from that era had absolutely zero affinity with Ireland and just wanted to play international football. Vested interests at play too- more money and clubs commanded bigger fees.

The likes of Townsend, Cascarino and a good few others were not Irish in the slightest but they played for Ireland but at least they gave it 100%

Agree completely. They weren't Irish that much, but they got stuck in when wearing the green jersey, and did us proud and gave us great memories, so have nothing but fondness towards those lads. Same in the rugby, don't know how Irish Bundee Aki is but don't care when he is bashing into people.

AllGunsBlazing

Deleted User wrote: »

Apparently he was supporting England against Ireland in Euro '88 then playing for us against England 2 years later!

McAteer was an English supporter watching Italia '90. Don't think he would have opted for us but for the world cup. Venables would've certainly capped him but I doubt he would have made his Euro '96 squad.

IAMAMORON

weldoninhio wrote: »

Was there “outrage” for his previous 26 caps?? A few hours ago they never played. You haven’t a clue what your talking about.

I do though sweetheart.

I know he is a fat Brazilian who winds up Italians all over the world, they hate him.

You should ask around.

trashcan

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think we need a particularly strong domestic league. We didn't have on in the Charlton years, and nothing has really changed since then.
.

Well, that depends on your priorities. If you think only the National team matters, then yeah maybe (although, as pointed out already, during the Charlton era we had players playing for the top teams in England. In all likelihood those days are over, so depending on that is problematic.) on the other hand, some of us want to see the league here progress and reach its maximum potential, and don’t believe it’s all just about the National team.

partyguinness

bullpost wrote: »

The big change since the Charlton era is the influx of players into the Premiership from all round the world. This has meant much less interest in sourcing Irish players .

I was at a wedding over here in England a few years ago and I was sitting next to an ex pro who now works with the FA. This player (absolutely sound out) played in the late 70s and a journeyman footballer in the 1980s. Never played international and TBH nobody here would recognise his name although he did win an FA cup medal in the 70s. I had to go outside and Google his name- no idea.

But anyway, he was saying that Irish young fellas who come over for trials have a reputation for a being a real pain in the hole.

Back with their club in Ireland they are **** hot and of course they get a trial in England then they think they are God almighty but they will be one of thousands upon thousands of young fellas the club will cast an eye over.

They ask too many questions and their attitude can be off. Most of the time they are past it- clubs want to mould players in a certain way.

Reminds me of Steve Staunton. I knew a lad who played with him mid 80s- all he did was stand there hoofing the ball with this big dirty left peg. Lads with 20 times the ability running around the pitch. Liverpool took Staunton- the club knew what the wanted and they could see in Staunton a player who was raw and ready to prime. The lad with all the fancy dribbling was no good to them- too far gone.

breezy1985

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Wouldn't Belgium be similar to us in that respect, having most of their players playing in bigger leagues outside their country?

One big difference is there are 11 million people in Belgium and as far as I know the only other major sport in the country is cycling

breezy1985

partyguinness wrote: »

I was at a wedding over here in England a few years ago and I was sitting next to an ex pro who now works with the FA. This player (absolutely sound out) played in the late 70s and a journeyman footballer in the 1980s. Never played international and TBH nobody here would recognise his name although he did win an FA cup medal in the 70s. I had to go outside and Google his name- no idea.

But anyway, he was saying that Irish young fellas who come over for trials have a reputation for a being a real pain in the hole.

Back with their club in Ireland they are **** hot and of course they get a trial in England then they think they are God almighty but they will be one of thousands upon thousands of young fellas the club will cast an eye over.

They ask too many questions and their attitude can be off. Most of the time they are past it- clubs want to mould players in a certain way.

Reminds me of Steve Staunton. I knew a lad who played with him mid 80s- all he did was stand there hoofing the ball with this big dirty left peg. Lads with 20 times the ability running around the pitch. Liverpool took Staunton- the club knew what the wanted and they could see in Staunton a player who was raw and ready to prime. The lad with all the fancy dribbling was nbo godo to them- too far gone.

Like most reputations it's probably based on BS. There is no way that there is only one type or an overriding type of personality that fits all the Irish that head over.

I suppose they all loved Guinness and potatoes too