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Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

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Comments

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,375 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha


    I don't see starvation issues at all. I just see the poorest people in vulnerable sectors getting sacrificed at the alter of Brexit. Food can always be imported and waved through customs. If several farmers go bankrupt then they must be seditious remainers looking to undermine Brexit.

    Starmer is doing what any sensible Labour leader must do, trying and play both sides while pleasing nobody. Labour ran on a second referendum platform in 2019 and attained the worst result since 1935. Starmer and his team will be only too aware of this.

    Show me a god that does not demand mortal suffering. Show me a god that celebrates diversity, a celebration that embraces even non-believers, and is not threatened by them. Show me a god that understands the meaning of peace. In life, not in death.

    Steven Erikson



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,237 ✭✭✭ roosterman71


    That's probably already happening. The UK has more food banks than McDonalds now (not saying McDonalds food is better than what you'd get at a food bank, but the fact that there is a need for so many food banks shows how much of the population are struggling to feed themselves)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,377 ✭✭✭ yagan


    You're not countering in that while Britain could import cheaper food the ability to do so relies on their currencies purchasing power. GBP has been marked as being as volatile as an emerging countries currency, but further political instability will erode purchasing power down another rung.

    The biggest problem I think is that while they know wages have seen to lowest growth in the OECD over the last decade many still believe that brexit is a fix and not an a further accelerant to their decline.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,377 ✭✭✭ yagan


    Weren't UNICEF in some London suburb last year?

    Plus malnutrition will only aid the reemergence of diseases not seen in decades. I was chilled when I saw polio being cited last week.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,375 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha


    I just don't see it. We've had nearly three years of this now and the country hasn't imploded. It's suffered but it is what it is. Nobody thinks Brexit is a fix as far as I can tell. Even Johnson stopped pretending in 2019. It's only relevant now because it worked for them in 2019.

    Show me a god that does not demand mortal suffering. Show me a god that celebrates diversity, a celebration that embraces even non-believers, and is not threatened by them. Show me a god that understands the meaning of peace. In life, not in death.

    Steven Erikson



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,377 ✭✭✭ yagan


    Perhaps the phrase you're looking for is "it couldn't happen here".



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,375 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha


    What point are you trying to make with this statement?

    Show me a god that does not demand mortal suffering. Show me a god that celebrates diversity, a celebration that embraces even non-believers, and is not threatened by them. Show me a god that understands the meaning of peace. In life, not in death.

    Steven Erikson



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,377 ✭✭✭ yagan


    Did the UK implode when millions were starving in Ireland?

    I don't think the UK will implode if millions are malnourished now. But quality of life and expectations will diminish, especially after another currency devaluation.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,375 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha


    You're being a bit ridiculous now in fairness. Ireland 1845-1852 is not the same as the UK in 2022.

    Show me a god that does not demand mortal suffering. Show me a god that celebrates diversity, a celebration that embraces even non-believers, and is not threatened by them. Show me a god that understands the meaning of peace. In life, not in death.

    Steven Erikson



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,262 ✭✭✭✭ road_high


    What Starmer is proposing sounds very much like being in the SM just without a label to avoid upsetting the brexit hysterics



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,108 ✭✭✭ rock22


    And of course Starmer must think that the EU will of course bend over backwards to make a new agreement with a country that refuses to abide with the current one!

    I see little difference in Starmer's position and Trusses'Johnson's to be honest



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,884 ✭✭✭ ambro25


    Starmer just continues to dance on the head of an electoral pin, is all.

    Meanwhile, UK plc continues to burn down to the ground, and everybody and their pet red tops continue to look the other way.

    Fat lot of good getting elected would do to Starmer, when the UK, in hock to its hair root and without much of an economy left to heart-massage back up, is back to getting the begging bowl out to the IMF.

    This is the Brexit thread, not the UK politics one, but I can’t see UK politics reaching escape velocity from Brexit for a (yet another-) decade at this rate.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,884 ✭✭✭ ambro25


    But that’s the personality aspect.

    So Starmer is a nice upstanding citizen. It would be a welcome change from the current Muppet Show, sure. A good thing (no sark).

    But in terms of policies, rock22 isn’t wrong. Starmer is aligned on the Tories about no SM/CU, no IndyRef2, immigration, etc…

    To the lambda voter, assuming no red/blue tribalism factor, Labour and the Tories are much of a muchness in terms of “what will they do for me”.

    Where Brexit is concerned, Starmer’s messaging is welcome -inasmuch as it may get people to dare utter the ‘B’ word again- but in terms of policy, it does nothing to curb the rate at which Brexit is killing off British industry, agri-food and services - of which there would be precious left (never mind ‘still in British controlling hands’) by the time he’s managed to turn the public opinion supertanker.

    The stats have long been there, and have recently been officialised by the ONS. Rome is burning fast.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,375 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha


    Agreed. It'll be nice to hopefully have a prime minister with a known amount of children if nothing else. The Tories are openly spreading misinformation on a scale shocking even by their low standards. Labour aren't.

    Starmer is only aligned on them because he feels he has to be. His party is pro-Remain and pro-EU. There's no way he maintains his current position if he becomes PM. Less so if he has to do a deal with the Lib Dems.

    If Rome is burning, at least its obvious that Johnson is more concerned with procreating and sheltering morally disgusting people while it does. Best thing for Labour and Liberals is to just wait it out and knock his party off their seats in the inevitable by-elections.

    Show me a god that does not demand mortal suffering. Show me a god that celebrates diversity, a celebration that embraces even non-believers, and is not threatened by them. Show me a god that understands the meaning of peace. In life, not in death.

    Steven Erikson



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,188 ✭✭✭✭ breezy1985


    What new agreement ?

    Most of what he is saying is about keeping the UK in line with the current rules. Also the EU are grown ups who understand that Starmers government could not be judged on the actions of Johnsons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,377 ✭✭✭ yagan


    The UK was the wealthiest country in the world then, yet domestically millions were starving under policies of laissez faire.

    The rapid rise in UK food banks over the last decade has surpassed the legacy foodbanks from Germany's reconstruction period.

    In a nation that's imports 50% of its food another currency devaluation will push hand to mouth existence to the fore.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,375 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha


    As I said, the comparison is absurd and frankly in poor taste.

    Show me a god that does not demand mortal suffering. Show me a god that celebrates diversity, a celebration that embraces even non-believers, and is not threatened by them. Show me a god that understands the meaning of peace. In life, not in death.

    Steven Erikson



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,884 ✭✭✭ ambro25


    I understand well the point of Starmer’s signalling how he does “because he feels he has to be” and acknowledged it.

    But by the same token, you cannot expect me to buy into that “his party [Labour] is pro-Remain and pro-EU”: if that was the case, he would not be signalling so closely to the UKIP’ied Tories on Brexit.

    Labour hasn’t been pro-Remain and pro-EU for 6 years. Starmer is straddling the exact same electoral fence that Corbyn did for years beforehand. And he/Labour would get obliterated at the next GE for the exact same reason in that respect: appealing to both sides of the Brexit ideological divide, and pleasing neither.

    Away from domestic electoral considerations: don’t kid yourselves that irrespective of whether Starmer got the keys to no.10 with a side helping of LibDems, the EU will still want to see the TCA with NIP implemented in full, and then monitor compliance awhile, before any improvements can be considered.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,188 ✭✭✭✭ breezy1985


    Food banks and the famine really have nothing got to do with each other.

    In fact "food bank" is actually a misleading name for those places as they deal in all categories of grocery and it's often found that people have spent what little they have on food and are going to a food bank for everything except food.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,375 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha


    I think you're conflating the Labour party with the previous leadership which was quite Eurosceptic. I recall posting a link showing that 82% of the Momentum movement were pro-Remain and wanted a second referendum, a pledge to which they secured at the 2019 conference. If memory serves, the Parliamentary party had a similar percentage.

    I'm not sure what it is now. Starmer is straddling said electoral fence because he actually wants to win. Corbyn and his crew were happy with controlling the party as a whole, not winning elections (save John McDonnell). There's a hostile media primed to pounce on any hint of undoing Brexit.

    Best case scenario, even if he does pledge to rejoin ASAP and the EU27 accept, what's to stop the Tories just running on the opposite platform via "undoing the will of the people". The Brexit narrative needs to be tangibly dismantled on the ground and that only happens when the Brexit Titanic hits the reality iceberg. We can visibly see the water flowing in now, metaphorically speaking.

    I think his position opens up the possibility of closer alignment and it has my tepid support for now. I want back in but I see that it's pointless without real change in the way the UK is governed and improving that will take time.

    Show me a god that does not demand mortal suffering. Show me a god that celebrates diversity, a celebration that embraces even non-believers, and is not threatened by them. Show me a god that understands the meaning of peace. In life, not in death.

    Steven Erikson



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,377 ✭✭✭ yagan


    What comparison?

    I'm not comparing the present with the past. I'm asserting that the established trend will inevitably lead to food security problems. It's arrogance to state otherwise considering the established upward explosion of food banks in the UK since 2008.

    A historical note the workhouses where so many perished were actually mostly constructed before the mass failure of the tenants main food. It was policy not to interfere with insecure tenure just as the current UK government is happy to let Britain be asset stripped now.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,375 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha


    By invoking the potato famine, you compared 2022 Britain to it. It's tasteless and unnecessary. I've no interest in going any further down this tangent.

    Show me a god that does not demand mortal suffering. Show me a god that celebrates diversity, a celebration that embraces even non-believers, and is not threatened by them. Show me a god that understands the meaning of peace. In life, not in death.

    Steven Erikson



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,377 ✭✭✭ yagan


    There was no shortage of food in Ireland when the blight ruined the subsistence crop of the tenant farmer.

    People in Liverpool didn't believe there was mass starvation in Ireland because their docks were constantly full of Irish wheat, beef and butter.

    The potato also failed across western Europe, blight being first noted in France, but only in Ireland did it lead to mass starvation.

    The workhouses may as well have had "arbeit macht frei" above their entrances.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,161 ✭✭✭ Enzokk


    The end is nigh for Johnson, would be surprised if he lasts the week and may even be gone tonight. We have 2 ministers who has resigned as of now, Sunak and Javid at the moment. So we will have to see who takes over to see if there will be a change in approach from the UK.


    Add in the talk of Starmer being fined for Covid breaches, which means he will resign, it could be a tumultuous few days/weeks/months in the UK. Just what you need in a crises, more drama.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,108 ✭✭✭ rock22


    I am going by the extract posted by Nody. Let me highlight

    the Labour leader will.. say .. would not join a customs union with the EU, in maintaining the hard Brexit brokered by Boris Johnson.

    He wants a new veterinary agreement for agricultural products moving between the UK and EU, and an enhanced trusted trader scheme to allow low-risk goods entering Northern Ireland without unnecessary checks.

    a new veterinary agreement in a bid to resolve the protocol row, Labour would also try to extend a veterinary agreement to cover all of the UK

    As Nody wrote, "..let's do all this stuff already proposed that EU already said "no way" to two previous PMs because Starmer will make it work"

    @54and56 said I don't think that's at all fair. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with his politics Starmer is at least honourable and trustworthy

    but

    @ancapailldorcha said Starmer is only aligned on them because he feels he has to be. His party is pro-Remain and pro-EU. There's no way he maintains his current position if he becomes PM.

    So is he trustworthy, keeping his word , or intending to change his position when he gets elected as PM?

    The whole point is, Starmer is now saying he will deliver a new agreement with the EU but he is ruling out a customs union or aligning with the single market. It just isn't deliverable, any more than the ready made deal for Christmas that Johnson delivered.

    I had great hopes for Starmer, felling he had the analytical mind to sort through the agreements and media savvy enough to sell it. But I fear I was wrong, The EU are not going to go over or change any agreement to allow a new UK government cherry pick the best bits of EU membership, at least not until the NI Protocol in working properly. If he came out unabiguously and stated that he would immediately live up to the withdrawal agreement, NIP included, then I would have more confidence he position was different to Johnsons. So far he hasn't.

    At this stage, I think there is a certain exhaustion in the EU around Brexit. No one will be happy to get into negotiation again with the UK. And the commission wont move until the NIP is sorted and implemented.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,063 ✭✭✭✭ Podge_irl


    A veterinary agreement is possible, but it would require aligning to EU veterinary standards. Something they already do, but they could not then diverge from them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,108 ✭✭✭ rock22


    I would think the EU would only agree to such an agreement if the UK agreed , by treaty, to align with EU standards. They would not countenance an agreement simply based on current standards when the UK government are already talking of changing them.

    What i am waiting to hear from Starmer is that as PM he will live up to the current agreements with the EU. Until then, from an outsider(Eu) perspective, there is little to distinguish the Tory and Labour position . I think that both revolve around the idea of UK exceptionalism and that a new government can reset the negotiations with the EU



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,188 ✭✭✭✭ breezy1985


    It just isn't deliverable, any more than the ready made deal for Christmas that Johnson delivered

    So it's as not deliverable as a delivered deal ?

    Johnson's "oven ready" deal is fully deliverable it just needs Johnson to stop stirring sht.



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