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Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

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Comments

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,362 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha


    I don't think Starmer wants to cherrypick anything. I think he just wants closer alignment which is a sensible position for anyone outside the Brexiter bubble. Bear in mind that we're seeing the full on effects of Brexit now, unmasked by covid. I think the charge of duplicity is unfair. People should be allowed to change their minds as time goes on. He has not made this a formal election pledge codified in a manifesto. Much can and will almost certainly change between now and the issuing of such a document.

    I think the EU would love closer alignment. It neuters chicanery from the UK, settles the protocol and begins the path to re-entry though that is both a long way off yet and will require significant constitutional change on this end.

    Show me a god that does not demand mortal suffering. Show me a god that celebrates diversity, a celebration that embraces even non-believers, and is not threatened by them. Show me a god that understands the meaning of peace. In life, not in death.

    Steven Erikson



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭ yagan


    Ian Dunt flagged the veterinarian checks as a massive red flag back at the time of the vote as then 95% of the vets working in the UK meat industry were EU nationals; UK vets being mostly focused on pets and horses.

    It really is a case of needing an agreement on this matter as the UK can't uphold any meat standards it sets itself. Anyone who remembers BSE and the foot and mouth outbreak twenty years ago knows how damaging low standards can be for UK meat producers.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,301 ✭✭✭ peter kern


    your problem seems to be that you think only the uk has issues and the rest of europe does not . while the uk has slightly bigger issues its not like uk is very bad eu is doing super well. germany and france have many many food banks and germany has a lot of issue with animal hygiene and meat processing. all the european main countries have lorry driver shortages and all big airports and airlines in europe have huge issues.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,362 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha


    You've missed the point. Nobody was claiming that the EU is perfect. The point is that Brexit exacerbates the current problems with staffing, cost of living and so on.

    Show me a god that does not demand mortal suffering. Show me a god that celebrates diversity, a celebration that embraces even non-believers, and is not threatened by them. Show me a god that understands the meaning of peace. In life, not in death.

    Steven Erikson



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭ yagan


    With respect you obviously didn't read my earlier post where I explained that the number of German food banks mostly exist on paper from the post war reconstruction era, whereas in the UK they've exploded in numbers since 2008.

    The main point is that in the last decade foodbanks in UK have surpassed the amount Germany required after a catastrophic war. The fact that other European countries have food banks has zero to do with the established trend in the UK since 2008 to the point where essential workers now rely on them.

    At least now some people who voted for brexit might finally realise that it was not the EU asset stripping their nation.



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 10,560 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Quin_Dub



    All those things are true - Nowhere is doing particularly well at the moment , but the UK is carrying an extra "Brexit tax" on top of all of this entirely of their own making.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,843 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell


    Well, if the UK sets up a fully functioning vet inspection system such that SPS checks are not needed with trade between the UK and EU, then the UK are signing up to EU standards - it can be no other way. So not the SM but the SM in all but name for SPS controlled goods. This means no chlorinated chicken, no gmo foods, and lots of food standards not able to diverge. That alone solves most of the NI protocol for a start - but still full Brexit.

    Now for the rest of the Brexit nonsense and he will quickly get to BRINO. Let us hope so.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,884 ✭✭✭ ambro25


    It is much worse than an extra “Brexit tax”, IMHO.

    The negative effects of the deal didn’t arrive at once, and hit different sectors in waves, the whole shitshow cohering slowly, like Guernica painted by a pointillist”:

    I’d argue that it is now doing systemic damage, and has reached sufficient critical mass across and within UK plc, to become both self-sustaining and self-aggravating.

    As much of the vectors of crisis (oil, inflation, food, etc.) have yet to play out fully, I cannot think of any other European country facing such a perfect storm of attritional factors.

    With further compounding factors in the background, like all UK applicants to Horizon finally getting the boot (29 June deadline came and went, UK still hasn’t implemented TCA-NIP provisions).

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/05/eu-scraps-115-grants-uk-scientists-academics-brexit-row?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Dark day for British science. Less R&D, more brain drain <etc>



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,301 ✭✭✭ peter kern


    they dont exist just on paper they are real in germany especially in the eastern part of germany about 930 in 2017 feeding aobut 1.5 milion people

    https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2017/09/world/germany-food-bank-cnnphotos/

    in this link there is a link in german and from 2014 to 2016 the use off foodbacnks increased by 18 percent according to this survey https://www.tafel.de/fileadmin/media/Presse/Pressemappen/2016_Tafel-Umfrage.pdf

    and they are close too 1000 now and they are seriously struggling to provide help at the moment .google can even help you in english.

    yes brexit is costing the uk about the 4 percent that was projected but brexit is only one of the problems. and europe is just doing marginally better . i would assume that the level of foodbanks which was immense in greece during the crises is still higher in greece than uk as food prices are rather high compared with earnings with uk .

    i dont get this comparisons from before 1960 with 2020 ...

    this is the brexit thread and not a history thread. so if foodbanks rise in uk since 2008 than this has not much to do with brexit ... it might speed it up a bit now but is not really a brexit issue. since foodbanks in europe are also rising at the moement in europe.

    i guess on this thread which is a bit more on facts than tabloid level it would be best to stick to facts as much as possible

    brexit is not good and a bit stupid , but its also not a disaster the brit government is ... but again that is not really brexit.



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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 27,113 Mod ✭✭✭✭ pixelburp


    Wonder is there any scope for Ireland pinching the potential brain drain; all the talk was about FinTech, but perhaps there's an opening for Ireland to pivot towards the kind of scientific R&D previously conducted by British firms and institutions.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,362 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha


    A few years ago, I'd have been sceptical. Now though, Ireland has limited but not insignificant potential. In my own area of specialisation, there are immunotherapeutic companies growing in Ireland. This is the sort of base that a whole sector could grow out from. There's even a firm in Galway specialising in Natural Killer (type of immune cell) cell therapies.

    What hurts Ireland most is its lack of infrastructure and cost of living. I looked into the Galway firm but accommodation is quite expensive, even in Galway.

    Fintech could do better. All you really need is premises and an internet connection. Most staff will work from home anyway for much of the time. English-speaking, well educated population count heavily in Ireland's favour. A bit tongue-in-cheek but the Irish don't have to worry about their country sinking economically like their neighbour or literally like the Dutch.

    Show me a god that does not demand mortal suffering. Show me a god that celebrates diversity, a celebration that embraces even non-believers, and is not threatened by them. Show me a god that understands the meaning of peace. In life, not in death.

    Steven Erikson



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭ yagan


    Brexit is history in the making. It's possibly the greatest example of a nation imposing trade sanctions upon itself in the modern age.

    The explosion of UK foodbanks may have increased the desire for change that the Brexit campaigner took advantage of.

    One thing is certain, brexit has accelerated the decline of living standards that was already underway. The EU is about pooling resources in a world of rising competing trade blocs just to maintain the current standard of living, but the UK going it alone means basically trading its current standard for something less.

    They'll never admit that of course, instead concocting half truths to tell themselves that food banks are normal, the return of polio is normal etc....



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,301 ✭✭✭ peter kern


    that is a real brexit issue, well more a northern ireland protocol issue. and of course kermit will nerver mention this here ...



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,103 ✭✭✭ rock22


    @ancapailldorcha wrote ... There's even a firm in Galway specialising in Natural Killer (type of immune cell) cell therapies.

    What hurts Ireland most is its lack of infrastructure and cost of living. I looked into the Galway firm but accommodation is quite expensive, even in Galway.

    Have you considered satellite towns around Galway. Accommodation would be cheaper and the infrastructure is slowly improving.

    .... A bit tongue-in-cheek but the Irish don't have to worry about their country sinking economically like their neighbour or literally like the Dutch.

    Off topic, but being Irish i think i can tell this one. I was told a joke about the Irish and Dutch swapping countries. The Dutch went on to feed the world, the Irish drowned.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,362 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha


    Either way, it is what it is. A bit annoyed that my own CV is worth the same as toilet paper but I'm in a good enough position to carry on here. What really matters from this point on is how the UK performs in relation to other EU contries of a similar economic size, ie France and Germany. Maybe Italy. So far, the signs are not good. It's not a disaster but then, it was always going to be a slow burn of emigration, lost investment and hiring problems.

    Show me a god that does not demand mortal suffering. Show me a god that celebrates diversity, a celebration that embraces even non-believers, and is not threatened by them. Show me a god that understands the meaning of peace. In life, not in death.

    Steven Erikson



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,865 ✭✭✭✭ murphaph


    I can definitely see Ireland benefiting from moving up the food chain in a number of sectors thanks to Brexit. I'm pretty sure I read that automotive software development had even become a thing in Ireland which it hadn't been previously. The IDA should be absolutely merciless in trying to attract FDI away from GB to us. We owe them nothing after the way they've behaved.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,301 ✭✭✭ peter kern


    out of interest who do you think will profit most from the current uk horizon waterloo. is there a country in eu that profits the most or does it move evenly.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,362 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha


    I don't drive and I have the expat's mindset that moving home is admitting failure. I've a decent job in the UK and so far the only adverse Brexit-effect I've encountered is a more expensive weekly shop.

    We'll see. I'm hopeful that we might get a government connected to reality here some time soon.

    Show me a god that does not demand mortal suffering. Show me a god that celebrates diversity, a celebration that embraces even non-believers, and is not threatened by them. Show me a god that understands the meaning of peace. In life, not in death.

    Steven Erikson



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,884 ✭✭✭ ambro25


    Whichever EU-based scientific projects next-in-line (-applying for H grants) are most deserving.

    Allocation is not country-biased, it is project team’s skillset- and project’s outcomes-biased, according to compatibility with EU R&D objectives.

    Besides, team members in any given EU research team are frequently well-distributed across the EU member states, these days. What with EU-driven FoM, qualification recognition, data regulations, etc.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,654 ✭✭✭ Fionn1952


    Brandon Lewis gone now too. How much longer can Johnson brass-neck this out?



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,123 ✭✭✭✭ breezy1985


    I assume the NIP is safe now with today's news. The imminent "next week next week" nonsense is surely on hold at least.

    DUP will again be forgotten about across the water now that they have real things to worry about.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,422 ✭✭✭ wexfordman2


    Peppa is bacon!!

    Announcement due from downing Street this morning



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,422 ✭✭✭ wexfordman2


    Actually, I expect more of the same tactics from the next tory brexit pm



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,316 ✭✭✭ Christy42


    Well yes but a big question is can they continue to force through Boris' old measures when he was such a failure.


    They will likely have to start from scratch with their own protocol busting bill. Given that this won't even start till they are elected, found their feet, gotten some important stuff done it would be quite some time before it gets to a vote.


    Similar tactics in the future but once again waiting for the UK to collapse has come up trumps for the EU.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,060 ✭✭✭✭ Danzy


    As someone involved in the meat industry.


    The highest quality and standards in Western Europe would be us by a large margin,then Britain, then Germany back a bit, the rest have a deliberate lax approach to them.



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,273 Mod ✭✭✭✭ looksee


    He isn't bacon at all - yet. He says he wants to stay on till September, so he limps on. He's not gone till he's gone. And how much damage can he do in the meantime? Whatever happened to gardening leave?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,362 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha


    I'm not too worried. Parliament breaks up for much of the time he has remaining. I'd say there'll be handouts, peerages and the like. Not much else.

    Show me a god that does not demand mortal suffering. Show me a god that celebrates diversity, a celebration that embraces even non-believers, and is not threatened by them. Show me a god that understands the meaning of peace. In life, not in death.

    Steven Erikson



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,301 ✭✭✭ peter kern


    thanks

    but if i have a quick look at the table of countries receiving funds which was posted on this page a few posts up countries such as luxemburg finland netherlands seem to punch way above their weight

    while countries like poland and italy and rumania punch way bellow their weight

    for instance italy has 3 times the amount of people than the netherlands but in terms of received funding they are within 7 percent of each other so.

    so while it might well be distributed with a lot of staff working internationally. from a job and tax point of view it would appear that luxemburg netherlands and finland might profit the most.as they seem to have strong programs.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,884 ✭✭✭ ambro25


    That’s as may be, and you can take it as an indication of each country’s academic prowess, capacity to host teams (in part or whole) and to administer/‘sell’ projects.

    As said, attribution is not based on a (specific) country nor its size, whether in population or GDP.

    You can have a large country with relatively low academic potential (say, Italy or Poland) and a tiny country with exceptional academic potential (say, Luxembourg or the Netherlands), whereby the tiny country gets more grants.

    Poland is a bit of an outlier in there, they are increasingly facing ‘soft’ sanctions due to their ongoing populist-driven constitutional spat with the jurisdiction of the CJEU. Which may go some way to explain the low attribution in recent times.

    That said, I work with the University of Luxembourg and regularly interface with a tech transfer person there, who joined them from Poland not so long ago - and whose evidence, all anecdotal that it is, matches your observation and my present reply (Poland is large and has decent academia, but they’re not great with modern/current research topics, transnational coordination and grant application-making).

    So LU, NL and FI get more grants.

    So IT, PL and RO have their work cut out: manage academia better to enhance their competitiveness relative to LU, NL and FI.

    No such thing as a free lunch.



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