Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Igotadose

Yorkshire Bylines has put out a 'Detriments of Brexit' paper in response to ReesMogg. If you ignore the satirical forward by the PM who apologizes for having lied, the rest is serious. Lots of things going on (or not going on) in the UK directly as a result of Brexit that aren't good.

https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/The-Detriments-of-Brexit-FINAL-1.pdf

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119169069#Comment_119169069

See post #12213 above.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119161005#Comment_119161005

Well, at least it is getting bumped. Still worth reading.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119167832#Comment_119167832

I wonder if thats why weve got some tory backbenchers in the past few weeks coming out in favour of moving back into EFTA like arrangements. Basically trying to pre-empt him from running in that direction.

Mr.Nice Guy

https://twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1534208533406810112?cxt=HHwWgICw0YqizcoqAAAA

This is what I was worried about. Tories will use Ireland as the next 'dead cat' strategy to take the headlines away from Partygate, leadership votes and whatever else.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119158338#Comment_119158338

I was definitely one of those smug travellers coming through El Prat yday. The non-EU line was chaos. No one waiting at all at the e-gates!

Leroy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119170526#Comment_119170526

They were always going to do it, this has just speeded up the process.

But they run into the very same issues that have dogged them from Day 1. They cannot square the circle of aligning standards without taking EU standards. They have successfully given the narrative that they only signed the deal because they had no choice but to get Brexit done. Its nonsense but it's the only card they have.

They agreed the deal because it was the only reasonable way forward. Always has been. They either go No Deal, and thus break the GFA agreement because of a Hard Border, or they do a deal which, deal being in the name, requires some part of acceptance of the other side.

Their new proposal sounds great, but in reality it is nothing more than a new coat of paint. Green and red channels, by their nature mean people and products will be checked. Even of it to work EU would need access to data, discussions on standards and the EU could revoke the deal whenever they felt the UK standards had moved too much away from the EU.

It solves nothing and will hit the same wall that every other attempt to pretend the fallacy of Brexit can be overcome.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119170637#Comment_119170637

I think they are just lying about that.

They probably intend everything will go into their "green channel" eventually (should the EU be foolish enough to bow down and agree to it!) so no questions asked and no checks whatsoever.

I think I recall (going from memory here...) when there was talk of a "trusted trader" scheme etc. to help with supermarkets in NI at an earlier point in this mess when Gove was the UKs main man for dealing with the EU, the UK govt. wanted to put pretty much every company in the UK that might wish to send something to NI onto this "trusted trader" list!

Grassey

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-61719444

Sammy Wilson told BBC News NI that such a move would be "childish" and "short-sighted".

So he must support that approach then 🤣

breezy1985

Just saw it on BBC news. Jeysus it sounds like Johnson has actually managed to unite the nationalists and unionists on something 🤣

Hermy

Did anyone catch Hilary Benn talking to Sarah McInerney on Drivetime this evening?

I was surprised to hear him say the EU needs to do more on the protocol.

Surely he's smart enough to know that the UK acting in bad faith is the single biggest stumbling block to progress.

Or is he just trying to appeal to his Brexiteer constituents?

Mr.Nice Guy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119175464#Comment_119175464

He said similar in a twitter thread a month ago:

https://twitter.com/hilarybennmp/status/1525145388243615744

Sam Russell

Benn obviously does not consider the future of the UK diverting from EU standards. Importing beef and other food products from Brazil, Argentina, and Australia will not meet EU standards. He cites that the protocol has been in operation for eighteen months, but in truth, it has not been operating at all.

Iam surprised at his approach.

tanko

If Labour were in government they’d be just as useless as the Tories.

Leroy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119176411#Comment_119176411

I think you are right. Catch a load of this absolute waffle and denial.

https://twitter.com/mikegalsworthy/status/1534641413320843270?s=20&t=AFxyFzb6tOcA6-iB2-wrqA

johnnyskeleton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119175616#Comment_119175616

What a strange position, part saber rattling rhetoric, part calls for calm.

He asks what threat a sandwich in a supermarket in Strabane or Carrigfergus is to the EUs single market. But this begs the question, under current arrangements, can a GB sandwich be sold in Strabane or Carrigfergus (not that theyd want one).

If the answer to that is yes, and it is indeed yes, then the protocol works.

Everything else is just posturing

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119176670#Comment_119176670

Well, that's deeply frustrating. The Labour centrists are suppoesed to be the best chance of improving the situation and Cooper can't even admit that the hard Brexit enacted by the Tories was and remains an appalling idea.

Sam Russell

So, for Labour, the UK have left the EU and with it the SM, so that is done - they have gone, end of story.

So how do they deal with all the red tape that is a result of leaving the SM? Well, a series of agreements, item by item. Now the EU have made it quite clear that in no way are they going for the salami approach the they have with Switzerland - no way will the EU allow another deal like that.

So Tories want to scrap the NI Protocol, which will result in the EU taking actions that will surprise even the Tories.

UK Labour want to replace the problems with the SM with a myriad of smaller deals that the EU says it will not even contemplate.

So UK Labour are just as useless as the Tories if that is all they have to offer. What a grim future the UK faces.

pixelburp

To be fair, we've had these kind of waffling answers over a simple question since the day Mass Media was born; Jeremy Paxman's career is propped up by a sequence of asking the same question over and over, once the politician started waffling.

In slim - slim! - defence of Cooper, Labour are in a bind here. It's easily forgotten while the Tories dominate the zeitgeist, but there's a cohort of the more hardened Left Wing who, if not behind a hard Brexit, were certainly anti-EU enough to cheer the concept as a pushback towards that halcyon days of "sovereignty". If Labour openly came out against Brexit, they'd probably lose a whole glut of voters from the Centre leftward. Maybe even their Momentum cohort - though I know little about them to say with confidence.

That's not a defence of her response, but I kinda get why she did it at the same time.

CrabRevolution

Labour have long criticised the Tories for demanding a bespoke deal with the EU which contains only benefits but no responsibilities. They have deliberately kept their own Brexit plan vague because whenever they're pressed on details they have to admit that their plan is .....to get a bespoke deal with the EU which contains only benefits but no responsibilities.

I gave up after she said five words, and I like her normally. It's like Homelander is asking the question.

Leroy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119177412#Comment_119177412

And therein lies the problem. The UK itself (general population) still hasn't accepted that Brexit is a bad idea. Labour know that anything about getting back into SM etc is toxic. At most they would accept that this Brexit isn't working, but it just needs another deal, another leader, another demand. Throughout any talk of a better deal, there is never a talk of what the UK is willing to compromise on. All there ever is is that the EU needs to come to the table, they need to accept that the deal is bad, they need to make changes.

But on what basis? Freedom of movement? No. Agree to ongoing alignment of standards? No. There are still at the point of 6 yers ago (this month) when the EU needed them more and all they had to do was out their deal on the table and the EU would be only too happy to accept.

So we have this weird situation where the majority accept Brexit isn't working, but the obvious solution is not something anybody is even willing to talk about and so they just talk about fairytales and makebelieve.

Seth Brundle

The ECJ has ruled that British "ex-pats" living in the EU "no longer enjoy the status of citizen of the Union"...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-09/you-ve-lost-your-eu-rights-bloc-s-top-court-tells-expat-brits

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119177835#Comment_119177835

Well yeah, that's true. It's a Don't Ask, Don't Tell kinda scenario I suppose, where the dogs on the street can see Brexit isn't working in real terms, but nobody's brave enough step forward and just say it out loud - lest it aggravate the noisy minority(?) within key pillars of society, be it demographic or the media. English Exceptionalism demands that the EU come to them, give them a Very Special Deal for Good Boys.

breezy1985

New bill delayed again. Big surprise there

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2022/06/09/british-government-delays-bill-to-scrap-unilaterally-parts-of-ni-protocol/

rock22

I know that some here have faith in a more rational Brexit stance if labour got to power but Starmer has made it clear, since the last election, that they are not reopening the whole Brexit debate and in fact are now almost totally aligned with the Tories

See

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/19/stop-talking-about-the-problem-fix-the-bloody-thing-keir-starmer-on-boris-johnsons-parties-and-his-plan-to-win-power

when , he answered a question about brexit with the waffle ( from the linked article)

Starmer,.said

“Yes,” he says. “Look, we’ve left the EU. There’s no case for rejoining, so we have to make it work. We are out and we’re staying out.”

So that rules out a return to the single market or customs union under a Labour government? “Yes, it does. We’ve got to make Brexit work from the outside and not reopen old wounds.”

Hilary Benn is simply expanding on what is now settled Labour party policy.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119177412#Comment_119177412

I think that, while this is a fair point, prevaricating over Brexit has been disastrous for Labour. This is a circle they desperately need to square. We've got Tories now questioning the wisdom of leaving the single market while the likes of Cooper can't answer a simple question when her party nominally supported remain in 2016.

I do get where you're coming from but the left in the UK have other options. Centrists can vote Lib Dem while leftists can vote Green. Johnson, meanwhile knows he is the only game in town.

So, yes. I see where you're coming from but the tedious tergiversations after literally over half a decade of this sh*te will not enthuse anyone. Brexit has been a disaster. Jacob Rees-Mogg was even begging Express readers to help him identify opportunities ffs. The red wall looks to be flipping back. A deal may be workable with the SNP if the voting system can be changed but someone needs to grow a spine and sharpish.

storker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119177412#Comment_119177412

Quite. You can just see the headlines in the right wing press: "Labour Quislings Will Force Us Back Into EU!". I agree that they should really come out and say that Brexit has been a clusterf**k from start to finish and that re-joining the SM would be the start of repairing the damage, but I don't think the English electorate has matured or learned enough - yet - for such an approach not to be damaging for Labour.

I suspect that Labour is talking just about finding the best way to making Britain's economy successful outside the SM while in truth they're well aware that the idea of replacing all that EU trade with far-flung trade deals is fantasy, and that their strategy is to gently lead the electorate to that view...with help as ever from No. 10 Bullingdon St.

storker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119177907#Comment_119177907

Good.

breezy1985

Although they may be close on not rejoining the SM or the EU one place Labour and the Tories would differ is that Labour would not be vacantly threatening to pull the NIP every other week.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119178202#Comment_119178202

Joining the customs union abrogates the need for a protocol to begin with and was Labour's initial Brexit policy in 2017. The DUP really screwed themselves there.