Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013697#Comment_118013697

I'd say Major voted Tory in 2019.

Padraig178

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013668#Comment_118013668

There's nothing wrong with Irish people and politicians attacking UK govenment policy at all.It's perfectly acceptable provided it's not done in a racist way.

Of course it also behoves us to understand this is a two-way street and not to get upset when there's incoming from the Brits on Varadkar, Coventry et al.

We must also remember that generally the Brits don't give a toss what we think about them and not to get upset at this.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013739#Comment_118013739

I agree with the last point. Amazingly the English seems so far to not care about Irish attitudes. I suspect this further irritates Irish public opinion.

Retr0gamer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013606#Comment_118013606

The Tory party isn't England. It's a bunch of toffs voted to represent the people that voted for them. You're just trying to come up with a correlation that people with issues with the British government hate british people as well and it's even just based on flimsy correlation, it's pathetic and wrong.

And Priti Patel might not have said she wanted to 'starve' Ireland but did advocate the use of food shortages to push for better terms from the EU which shows an outrageous lack of understanding and empathy, and really isn't far off starving either lets be honest.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013695#Comment_118013695

What was she implying? How would using food shortages have worked? 'Starve' 'cause hunger' etc etc was what she implied and why she has taken the tweet down.

It warrants being brought back up because certain types of English/British politicians still come out with this stuff.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013756#Comment_118013756

In England, just England, the Tories get about half the vote. They are the party of government for England for the last 150 years. You've labelled 50% of England as Toffs.

Padraig178

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013756#Comment_118013756

Is the Tory party a ' bunch of toffs ' ?

The current UK government Cabinet is the most diverse in history.

Three of the most senior posts are occupied by children of BAME immigrants.

Only one Cabinet Minister other than Boris went to Eton.

Most were not educated privately.

None is a member of the aristocracy.

There are more University-educated Labour MPs in Parliament than Tory.

Toffs is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013668#Comment_118013668

Well all we are doing is verbally criticising in fairness. It's a lot less dangerous than the kind of aerial carpet "criticising" the UK does when it doesn't like foreign governments.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013783#Comment_118013783

50% happy to be ruled by toffs.

fash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013487#Comment_118013487

That's because it's hard to actually spend much time engaging with the Tories' Brexit shenanigans without getting into a murderous rage.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013793#Comment_118013793

This is the kind of generalising bordering on offensive commentary we get in Ireland about the Tories.

As you say, the current Tory cabinet and party is far far more diverse than anything in Ireland.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013824#Comment_118013824

😁😁 You have just spent several posts 'generalising' about Irish attitudes to what the English/British are doing.

Retr0gamer

What has diversity got anything to do with it? It's not important. It doesn't matter what their backgrounds are. The vast majority of the Tory cabinet are neo-liberal disaster capitalists running the country into the ground with Brexit. That's all that matters. They used populist rhetoric to get into power and then pushed through legislation that actively harms the disenfranchised people that voted them in while while they lap it up due to being blinded by the propaganda being pedalled by the press. I feel sorry for those people and can't hate them. The Tories on the other hand are hateful. You might argue they are a very diverse bunch of toffs, it still doesn't make them any less of a hateful bunch of diverse Toffs.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013606#Comment_118013606

All untrue. Like, literally all of it.

The Tory party is at barely 200,000 member whereas England is about 56 million. 56 million is a considerably higher number than 200,000.

The UK's highly unrepresentative voting system means that the government is almost comically unrepresentative of voters. I've seen various attempts to shut down criticism of the Tory party and Brexit but this ranks as the weakest.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118014121#Comment_118014121

The Tories get about half the vote in England, particularly in Southern England.

The Tories are England, just as much as Labour is.

Eclectic Econometrics

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013802#Comment_118013802

14,000,000 tory voters and 56,000,000 population.

It is more like a 25%. 😀

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118014169#Comment_118014169

Nonsense. There's realistically two parties that will govern this country, Labour or the Tories. FPTP makes all other choices borderline pointless unless you live in Brighton Pavilion, Richmond or similar.

Strazdas

Cummings' claim that it is 'no big deal' if you rip up an international agreement is provocative to say the least. It's not how most countries conduct their affairs and he doesn't even seem to care if the UK is seen as a rogue state.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013824#Comment_118013824

You get plenty of that in England from the 50% who don't want to be ruled by toffs too.

No one in their right mind is buying the poor little bullied Britain thing from you or the government

Padraig178

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013931#Comment_118013931

So if it doesn't matter what their backgrounds are why should it matter to you so much to you that they're Tory toffs ? The voters in Tony Blair's constituency Sedgefield - who elected a Tory MP in 2019 - don't seem to hate the Tory toffs. Not sure you'd last long in the local working men's club if you told them they were duped by the Tory press and they're too dumb to work out what they voted for.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118014293#Comment_118014293

Which part of my post is nonsense?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118014436#Comment_118014436

>The Tories are England, just as much as Labour is.

This. Feel free to provide some evidence if you have any but the composition and lack of members clearly shows otherwise.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118014448#Comment_118014448

Oh resort to insults. Call a post you don't agree with nonsense. Don't argue against the point.

Usual stuff.

Retr0gamer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118014375#Comment_118014375

I'm not calling them toffs because of their background, more so to highlight how out of touch they are with the realities outside of their upper class circle of disaster capitalists.

As for Sedgefield, not all people in Sedgefield voted for Tory but you seem to equate that to everyone there being happy with tories. That's a very simple and ignorant way to look at the world, in much the same way as saying the Tories are England as if they represent all of England and a slight against them is a slight against all english people.

Actually why am I even arguing with you. You are talking complete and utter tosh as per usual, the workman's club comment is just more nonsense and another example.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118014530#Comment_118014530

Where's the insult? Questioning what you said isn't an insult.

Still waiting for that source.

pixelburp

Rationalising any given political party as somehow representative of an absolute of a nation's mood or ideology is exactly the kind of intellectual slippery-slope that allows more authoritarian leanings take root. At best it's just naive. The presumption of those in power, or those supportive of that party, that they are the nation, as opposed to just temporary custodians, and/or the least-worst choice by an electorate.

And as already pointed out, the FPTP system means a fair reflection of an overall population is even less relevant; the social contract might say they represent "the nation", but again it takes wilful nativity or deliberate disingenuous positioning to claim that's how things work in the real world.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118014637#Comment_118014637

Every party is at least a little bit populist. Heck, the only reason the Lib Dems won the Amersham and Chesham by-election was down to pandering to NIMBY's. The problem with nationalists is their claim to be the only ones who can represent "the people". The implication is that everyone else is "the elite". It's nonsense of course and we know where this sort of toxic politics can lead. It's a slippery slope to authoritarianism and we're seeing that in the UK with the Tories paring back Human Rights legislation.

Padraig178

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118014540#Comment_118014540

I mentioned Sedgefield because when Tony Blair was MP there he had a 25,000 majority. In 2019 the ' Tory Toffs ' took the seat with a majority of over 4,000.

Where have those 21,000 Labour voters gone ?

Far from being out of touch with reality outside their ' upper class circle of disaster capitalists ' the Tories captured Sedgefield and a host of other solid Labour seats precisely because they know exactly what they wanted which was carrying out the result of the referendum they voted for.

Blithely dismissing them as Tory toffs is the same sort of lazy stereotyping on show at the recent Labour party conference. Labour voters don't care about people's backgrounds or where they come from even if they're a millionaire Oxford University-educated lawyer from Islington.

Irish people should be careful about what they said about the Tories because the Tories are England?

What are they going to plant us again because we were mean about their politicians?

fash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118014751#Comment_118014751

The CTA could allow them to do just that ... 😱