Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

ancapailldorcha · 13-10-2021 12:28pm

Is it, though? All I've seen is lots of sabre-rattling from some old men who are out of ideas and desperate to be relevant. The continent has moved on and it seems that if the UK actually do trigger A16, they know the EU will retaliate and then some. It's probably why they've not done it yet.

fly_agaric · 13-10-2021 12:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012788#Comment_118012788

Possibly. The UKs behaviour hasn't really harmed Ireland yet but if it does (e.g. NI protocol finally breaks down and there is further deterioration in EU-UK relationship and later a requirement emerging for some NI-IE customs controls), yes you may see increased calls to push for unity to somehow try and solve these problem(s). And SF are the political party who have always held that position (unifying Ireland as top priority) so that should give them an advantage.

Don't think that would be a good thing. We need to look after ourselves and our own future as much as possible without getting bogged down worrying about "saving" NI somehow. People fought over that issue in Ireland back in the 20s and the winners were correct IMO. If people living in NI get really fed up of being a UK govt. proxy in their battles with the EU + suffering harm from that they can agitate for a border poll. They are supposed to have the right to one, even if I highly doubt the current UK govt. would allow such a vote to be held irrespective of NI public opinion.

ancapailldorcha · 13-10-2021 12:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013113#Comment_118013113

I don't disagree about the narrative in general but the FT and The Economist are both relatively niche publications. Both are based on analysis rather than news (though the FT is a daily) and don't really contribute to the narrative to the same degree as the Mail or the Express.

fash · 13-10-2021 12:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012495#Comment_118012495

The obvious answer is to have an arbitration panel where the arbitrators can only be selected from the list of current ECJ judges.

Job done

listermint · 13-10-2021 12:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013135#Comment_118013135

I would ask you to back this up based on articles volume etc as there is a large amount of data available. But you disregarded my previous ask for polls you referenced.

So I expect very little in terms of basis for the UK press being pro remain and anti Boris in any majority.

I'm intrigued by your hypothesis though and wait any real evidence in earnest.

Padraig178 · 13-10-2021 12:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013315#Comment_118013315

If there was a consistent majority in opinions polls for a united Ireland then I can't see the UK government not offering a border poll.

The Irish government would also hold one but I see no great enthusiasm for one either among the public or those in power.

A united Ireland like an independent Scotland are worthy ideals but the reality, and polling, suggests they're both a very long way away.

A hefty price tag concentrates the mind at crucial times.

Padraig178 · 13-10-2021 12:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013374#Comment_118013374

Well you could start by providing this data which you say is readily available.

If you do that we can take it from there.

ancapailldorcha · 13-10-2021 12:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013372#Comment_118013372

I've been reading it weekly for half a decade it was always pro-Remain. They even did an anti-Brexit special report before the referendum where they dismantled every single Leave argument.

20silkcut · 13-10-2021 12:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013157#Comment_118013157

because it’s difficult to near impossible for anyone reasonable pragmatic person outside the little England/brexiteer bubble to have sympathy for the brexit cause.

Trumps sympathy to brexit is purely selfish.

it’s not a logical cause. And 100% not worth stirring up trouble in NI over it to anyone of a reasonable mind.

FrancieBrady · 13-10-2021 12:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013030#Comment_118013030

Have you stopped to ask why this is?

And why you are embarrassed by it? If it is justifiable criticism, what is remotely wrong with saying it?

Padraig178 · 13-10-2021 12:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013450#Comment_118013450

What about the people in Wales,Scotland or NI who voted for Brexit ?

What about Irish people in the UK who voted to Leave ?

How do they fit into your Little Englander narrative ?

hotmail.com · 13-10-2021 12:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013460#Comment_118013460

It's more than criticism. Just have a look at Neale Richmond's twitter. Non stop anti English stuff.

FrancieBrady · 13-10-2021 12:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013487#Comment_118013487

No fan of Richmond, but why do you characterise criticism of certain English behaviours as being 'anti- English'? This has more than the reek of a healthy inferiority complex about it.

20silkcut · 13-10-2021 1:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013465#Comment_118013465

Northern Ireland is a delicately balanced region held together by a shaky compromise. Which has worked for the last 23 years.

Seth Brundle · 13-10-2021 1:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013487#Comment_118013487

I wouldn't be a fan of NR. Nonetheless, I can't see anything that is anti-English. I do see a lot of stuff that shows he is opposed to any Brexit related collateral damage. Maybe you can post some of his anti-English tweets?

Leroy42 · 13-10-2021 1:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013505#Comment_118013505

Exactly, criticism of the way that the UK government are behaving is not being Anti-English. The UK government has behaved appallingly throughout the entire process, seeking to divide and agitate the EU at almost every turn. Cummings latests tweets are merely the acknowledgment of what many observers always felt, that the UK government never had any intention of trying to implement the agreement.

We saw this from the very off when the UK decided to pick a fight with the EU and refuse to allow them to have an office in NI. This, although relatively minor issue, showed that the UK had no intention of working with the EU.

The UK, unfortunately, have become an untrustworthy partner. They are happily causing great stress and issues for both their own citizens and also Irish citizens, as well as wasting a huge amount of the the EU's time.

Calling that out is not Anti-English, anymore that calling Brexit a disaster is Remoaner. But it is a simple way of avoiding having to deal with the actual arguments, a way of playing the man not the ball

J Mysterio · 13-10-2021 1:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013298#Comment_118013298

I wouldn't be in any way surprised to learn that the UK have been working with Poland on their case.

hotmail.com · 13-10-2021 1:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013536#Comment_118013536

Only last week or the week he tweeted the lie that Patel wanted to "starve" Ireland.

She never used that word and he knows she didn't. But he's happy to whip up an anti English frenzy and get likes.

When Irish people insult or mock the Tory Party, they are insulting their voters. The Tory Party is and always will be England. So I think Irish people should be more careful in how they speak them.

Brussels Sprout · 13-10-2021 1:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013135#Comment_118013135

Really? I think there's quite a bit of evidence for it really. Let's look at the daily publications:

Pro-Brexit, Pro Tory

The Telegraph

The Times

The Sun

The Daily Mail

The Daily Express

Other

The Guardian

The Independent

the Daily Mirror

It's difficult to get accurate circulation figures for these papers (and practically impossible to calculate their online reach) but by the metrics we do have the pro-Brexit/Tory papers are read by more people than the others. Young people may not read newspapers as much but they also don't vote as much as their elders.

fly_agaric · 13-10-2021 1:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013378#Comment_118013378

As per my post I'd be a person with no great enthusiasm for an immediate "United Ireland" or agitating for it or the holding of votes on it and as you say the main parties [apart from SF] and I think the public are of a similar mind. SFs growing popularity in Ireland right now has very little to do with NI or their position on it.

If/when it is put to us here, that will most likely after NI has already said they actually want it (via a positive/majority vote there?). I would vote yes as I think pretty much all Irish people will. You are wrong about the costs coming into it at that point I think.

I believe this UK govt. (or Conservative govt. of similar ideology) would be extremely reluctant to hold a vote no matter the public opinion in NI.

I think they'd be very worried and see it as a big crack in the Union to have NI leave (a UK "domino theory" of sorts?). I'm sure the Tories know very well the dangers & massive unpredictibility of giving the public a direct vote on such matters (after the Scottish referendum they nearly lost and Brexit itself of course).

edit: Apart from using opposition to it to damage the EU, I think the UK govt. are being quite honest about not "liking" the NIP because it damages the UK union. It does weaken the economic links between NI and GB, and I think this UK government has been open about wanting to go in opposite direction as regards "tightness" of the union (bring the regions more under the wing again etc and row back somewhat on devolution where possible [Johnson has called it a mistake I think]).

20silkcut · 13-10-2021 1:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013559#Comment_118013559

True, I and I’m sure most others here wholeheartedly agree on brexit with English commentators such as James o Brien , Andrew Adonis, Phil Moorhouse, Ian Dunt, Femi oluwele, Dominic grieve, John major etc etc.

Anti brexit is nothing to do with being Anti English. That is a Tory narrative.

murphaph · 13-10-2021 1:26pm

Another opinion piece in an influential German magazine (Handelsblatt, the German Economist I guess):

https://www.handelsblatt.com/meinung/kommentare/kommentar-die-eu-muss-notfalls-einen-handelskrieg-gegen-grossbritannien-fuehren/27698242.html?ticket=ST-12005988-OVC0Vd6Zcmxx5F2TbTOt-ap6

The author responds to Frost's latest speech and basically says if the Brits give up on the NIP, the EU should hit them with a trade war. No more softly softly. If this opinion takes hold, we will sone see just how mighty Britannia is.

FrancieBrady · 13-10-2021 1:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013606#Comment_118013606

What else would you describe 'using food shortages' to bring the Irish into line as? 'Starve' may not be a word the English or those embarrassed on their behalf, like used but it is a perfectly appropriate inference to make from her tweet, which she seems to have deleted. Thereby accepting it was inappropriate.

That kind of insensitive comment should be criticised and even mocked, it isn't anti- English to do it, it is anti a certain English attitude.

hotmail.com · 13-10-2021 1:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013648#Comment_118013648

They are English people criticising English policy and politicians.

That's much different from foreign people, like us, constantly attacking English policy and English cabinet ministers.

Padraig178 · 13-10-2021 1:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013611#Comment_118013611

The Times came out for Remain as did the Sunday Times, Mail on Sunday, Observer, Sunday Mirror.

You also forgot Cambridge Analytica and ' dark money ' lined up in the Brexit starting XI ...😉

20silkcut · 13-10-2021 1:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013668#Comment_118013668

No it’s not we are likely to be as negatively affected by this horror show as much as any of them. We are facing having a border running through the middle of our country.

hotmail.com · 13-10-2021 1:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013659#Comment_118013659

He brought it back up because saying anything negative about English ministers will get likes and support from a public which is furious with England. There was no need for a tweet like that and whilst her argument was disgraceful, she never said "starved". Richmond falsely used this phrase to incite the Irish public against English ministers.

Sam Russell · 13-10-2021 1:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013606#Comment_118013606

'When Irish people insult or mock the Tory Party, they are insulting their voters. The Tory Party is and always will be England. So I think Irish people should be more careful in how they speak them.'

That is a bit rich.

The Tory Party are in Gov with a known liar as its leader - fired as a journalist by the London Times for writing an article of lies. (He has plenty of other faults). There are people other than the Tory Party voters who consider themselves English and would be horrified to be considered anything to do with the Tories - particularly this particular lot of Tories. Why, there are former Tory leaders - Major comes to mind - who are dead against all this particular incarnation of the Tory party stand for in every way.

Why should Irish people be careful in how they speak to or about them? I doubt many Irish people would ever speak (knowingly) to Tory voters, and certainly not be prepared to doff their cap or tug their forelock.

Such rubbish!

[You are not John Bruton, are you?]