Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

54and56

This all sounds like a self inflicted cluster fcuk.

hotmail.com

The EU looks like it is blaming an intern for the mistake.

HalfAndHalf

Amirani wrote: »

Please tell us more about the difference between the EU breaking international law and the EU effectively breaking international law.

That's all I'm asking for. I'm not sure they have done either, but interested to know how you've come to this conclusion.

Article 16 of the Northern Ireland protocol, a section of the Brexit is enshrined in International law between the EU and U.K.

Invoking it without following the proper process is breaking that treaty and by proxy the international law applied to it as part of the wider treaty.

It looks like the EU are backtracking now if that’s what you’re going to use to try to trip me up but this is currently in discussion and hasn’t happened yet. They’ve also changed their stance to ‘won’t invoke it’ again backtracking.

Anything else or will you have more passive aggressive questions rather than a discussion. From a mod of all people.

yagan

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Yes - new account but so what - I am a proud Irishman, don't normally post on these forums but this has got me so annoyed that people need to understand what is going on here. Take off your Brexit bashing anti British nonsense for one minute and open your eyes. I am not some crank and horrified at how the EU is behaving. We have for years during the Brexit process looked at how to protect the Good Friday agreement and secure peace on this island which needs protecting. In one fell swoop the EU has given two fingers to that to cover up for their total incompetence. We also in Ireland are going to now have to live with restrictions for many months longer than needed due to EU incompetence. I know you won't like this but the best thing we can do now is talk to the British on the side and try and secure some AZ vaccine. Time for Irish politicians to step up for Ireland and do the right thing.

At every juncture for an all Island approach the DUP have been blocking us.

Kermit.de.frog

54and56 wrote: »

This all sounds like a self inflicted cluster fcuk.

They just look incompetent.

How could they pull this without even consulting either the British or Irish governments!?

They look ridiculous now.

ujjjjjjjjj

54and56 wrote: »

This all sounds like a self inflicted cluster fcuk.

Absolutely, total and utter cluster fcuk from the EU. I can't believe this is happening. With the toys being thrown out over their vaccine mess-up it shows the mindset in the EU at the moment. Panic and more panic and while they can dismiss Israel as it is far enough away they can't ignore the success the UK are making of the rollout and this is causing them to behave like spoilt kids. It is unbelievable.

ujjjjjjjjj

yagan wrote: »

At every juncture for an all Island approach the DUP have been blocking us.

So what this has nothing to do with that ? This is the EU going nuts. Please try and think straight. How on earth could the DUP countenance closing the NI border to the mainland UK. It is politically impossible for them and anyone calling for this has absolutely no understanding of NI politics. It is naive navel gazing.

HalfAndHalf

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Absolutely, total and utter cluster fcuk from the EU. I can't believe this is happening. With the toys being thrown out over their vaccine mess-up it shows the mindset in the EU at the moment. Panic and more panic and while they can dismiss Israel as it is far enough away they can't ignore the success the UK are making of the rollout and this is causing them to behave like spoilt kids. It is unbelievable.

And who suffers......us! That’s what boils my **** the most out of all of it. I could be wrong but I’ve half thought this has just been an exercise in forcing a U.K. created vaccine and a part U.K. company into submission and do what they’re told and today’s escapades haven’t done much to change my mind. They need to cop on and start getting us our vaccines! At this rate Israel will become the business centre of the world!

54and56

Amirani wrote: »

It's not really clear whether a decision was actually made. What are you basing that on, a few journalist tweets or someone uploading something on a website that they shouldn't have?

This?

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/qanda_21_308

yagan

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

So what this has nothing to do with that ? This is the EU going nuts. Please try and think straight. How on earth could the DUP countenance closing the NI border to the mainland UK. It is politically impossible for them and anyone calling for this has absolutely no understanding of NI politics. It is naive navel gazing.

Why are you getting in a heap for the customs border that the DUP objected to?

Politically NI is part of the UK, its health system is funded from London, not Brussels or Dublin.

When the border is voted away that changes. New poster full of mock indignation at the suggestion that healthcare in NI isn't part of the UK.

ujjjjjjjjj

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

And who suffers......us! That’s what boils my **** the most out of all of it. I could be wrong but I’ve half thought this has just been an exercise in forcing a U.K. created vaccine and a part U.K. company into submission and do what they’re told and today’s escapades haven’t done much to change my mind. They need to cop on and start getting us our vaccines! At this rate Israel will become the business centre of the world!

Absolutely the Irish people will have to suffer months of longer restrictions due to the EU mess. I suspect you are right about trying to force what is perceived as UK company to submit to the mighty EU to show the UK who is boss. It is toys and prams stuff.

sondagefaux

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

Wow, Thanks for the passive aggressive response. Appreciate it.

Here’s the article 16 process. As per my post all was ignored.

Please feel free to provide evidence to the contrary to prove your side. I assume you read the AZ contract published today and especially clause 5 and it’s subsections that state what I posted?

The full text of the procedure used to invoke Article 16 of the Protocol, as set out in Annex 7 to the Protocol:

PROCEDURES REFERRED TO IN ARTICLE 16(3)
1. Where the Union or the United Kingdom is considering taking safeguard measures under
Article 16(1) of this Protocol, it shall, without delay, notify the Union or the United Kingdom, as
the case may be, through the Joint Committee and shall provide all relevant information.
2. The Union and the United Kingdom shall immediately enter into consultations in the Joint
Committee with a view to finding a commonly acceptable solution.
3. The Union or the United Kingdom, as the case may be, may not take safeguard measures until
1 month has elapsed after the date of notification under point 1, unless the consultation
procedure under point 2 has been concluded before the expiration of the state limit. When
exceptional circumstances requiring immediate action exclude prior examination, the Union or
the United Kingdom, as the case may be, may apply forthwith the protective measures strictly
necessary to remedy the situation.
4. The Union or the United Kingdom, as the case may be, shall, without delay, notify the
measures taken to the Joint Committee and shall provide all relevant information.
5. The safeguard measures taken shall be the subject of consultations in the Joint Committee
every 3 months from the date of their adoption with a view to their abolition before the date
of expiry envisaged, or to the limitation of their scope of application. The Union or the United
Kingdom, as the case may be, may at any time request the Joint Committee to review such
measures.
6. Points 1 to 5 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to rebalancing measures referred to in Article 16(2)
of this Protocol.

From paragraph 3:

When exceptional circumstances requiring immediate action exclude prior examination, the Union or
the United Kingdom, as the case may be, may apply forthwith the protective measures strictly
necessary to remedy the situation.

This means either party can invoke Article 16 without the normal notification procedures in 'exceptional circumstances requiring immediate action'.

There's no definition in the Protocol of what constiututes 'exceptional circumstances requiring immediate action'.

There's been no breach of international law, no breach of the Withdrawal Agreement, no breach of the Protocol,.no breach of Annex 7.

This is a political screw up, not a legal one.

sondagefaux

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Absolutely the Irish people will have to suffer months of longer restrictions due to the EU mess. I suspect you are right about trying to force what is perceived as UK company to submit to the mighty EU to show the UK who is boss. It is toys and prams stuff.

It's a Swedish-British company that has failed to meet its contractual obligations to the EU.

The rest is just blather.

Professor Moriarty

sondagefaux wrote: »

The full text of the procedure used to invoke Article 16 of the Protocol, as set out in Annex 7 to the Protocol:



From paragraph 3:

When exceptional circumstances requiring immediate action exclude prior examination, the Union or
the United Kingdom, as the case may be, may apply forthwith the protective measures strictly
necessary to remedy the situation.

This means either party can invoke Article 16 without the normal notification procedures in 'exceptional circumstances requiring immediate action'.

There's no definition in the Protocol of what constiututes 'exceptional circumstances requiring immediate action'.

There's been no breach of international law, no breach of the Withdrawal Agreement, no breach of the Protocol,.no breach of Annex 7.

This is a political screw up, not a legal one.

Not an Internal Market Bill so.

ujjjjjjjjj

yagan wrote: »

Why are you getting in a heap for the customs border that the DUP objected to?

Politically NI is part of the UK, its health system is funded from London, not Brussels or Dublin.

When the border is voted away that changes. New poster full of mock indignation at the suggestion that healthcare in NI isn't part of the UK.

No idea what you are talking about.....?? Of course NI healthcare is part of the Uk ?? You mentioned that the DUP were blocking an all Ireland approach....presumably you meant in relation to Covid ?? If so there is no way the DUP are going to separate NI from mainland UK. If you are talking about NI becoming part of Ireland and the DUP blocking that.....well good luck with that. 30 years of the horrors of the Troubles and a exhaustive peace process might hint that there is a bit more to it.....

yagan

sondagefaux wrote: »

This is a political screw up, not a legal one.

I don't see what the issue is really. The UK has shown itself to be completely untrustworthy in its coveting of EU vaccine allotments. This is life and death and Micheal Martin should be getting behind the EU in calling out the UK on their duplicity.

Partition is a British mess, a British creation and Arlene and Co wouldn't think twice about restricting vaccines from Irish areas of NI if they could get away with it.

Amirani

sondagefaux wrote: »

The full text of the procedure used to invoke Article 16 of the Protocol, as set out in Annex 7 to the Protocol:



From paragraph 3:

When exceptional circumstances requiring immediate action exclude prior examination, the Union or
the United Kingdom, as the case may be, may apply forthwith the protective measures strictly
necessary to remedy the situation.

This means either party can invoke Article 16 without the normal notification procedures in 'exceptional circumstances requiring immediate action'.

There's no definition in the Protocol of what constiututes 'exceptional circumstances requiring immediate action'.

There's been no breach of international law, no breach of the Withdrawal Agreement, no breach of the Protocol,.no breach of Annex 7.

This is a political screw up, not a legal one.

Yeah, spot on. It's clearly a political mess rather than legal.

As per the treaty section you cited too, treaty wasn't actually invoked because nothing was applied/implemented.

hotmail.com

This debacle has united Dublin and London governments which is a good thing to come out of this mess.

sondagefaux

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Not an Internal Market Bill so.

The Internal Market Bill, as originally set out, proposed to give the UK unilateral powers to over-ride any provisions of the Protocol it didn't like.

A completely different situation to a politically stupid but legally valid use of the exceptional circumstances provisions allowed for in the Protocol.

yagan

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Absolutely the Irish people will have to suffer months of longer restrictions due to the EU mess. I suspect you are right about trying to force what is perceived as UK company to submit to the mighty EU to show the UK who is boss. It is toys and prams stuff.

Did the EU force us to have a "meaningful christmas"?

We could have gone for a zero covid all island approach but the only obstacle was and always will be unionists.

Professor Moriarty

sondagefaux wrote: »

The Internal Market Bill, as originally set out, proposed to give the UK unilateral powers to over-ride any provisions of the Protocol it didn't like.

A completely different situation to a politically stupid but legally valid use of the exceptional circumstances provisions allowed for in the Protocol.

Exactly. It illustrates the difference in principle and in legal behaviour between the UK and the EU.

ujjjjjjjjj

sondagefaux wrote: »

It's a Swedish-British company that has failed to meet its contractual obligations to the EU.

The rest is just blather.

Nope that is the line being peddled by the EU to cover their incompetence. People need to wake up and just try to forget the default 'laugh at the Brits' and 'the EU are great' nonsense which has become standard discussion since the Brexit vote. People have short memories, we as a nation are saddled with huge national debt which a significant chunk of is socialised banking debt to avoid defaulting on German banks loans....we all seem to have forgotten that in our bash the brits frenzy in recent years. The EU will do exactly what benefits the Germans and to a lesser extent the French. We are along for a ride but please take off the blue goggles and try to look at the big picture.

yagan

hotmail.com wrote: »

This debacle has united Dublin and London governments which is a good thing to come out of this mess.

How is the UK robbing the vaccine allotment we paid for a unting action?

yagan

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Nope that is the line being peddled by the EU to cover their incompetence. People need to wake up and just try to forget the default 'laugh at the Brits' and 'the EU are great' nonsense which has become standard discussion since the Brexit vote. People have short memories, we as a nation are saddled with huge national debt which a significant chunk of is socialised banking debt to avoid defaulting on German banks loans....we all seem to have forgotten that in our bash the brits frenzy in recent years. The EU will do exactly what benefits the Germans and to a lesser extent the French. We are along for a ride but please take off the blue goggles and try to look at the big picture.

And here it is from the brand new account, ze germans blah blah blah.

proud Irish man my arse. More likely fully paid up Daily Express reader.

ujjjjjjjjj

hotmail.com wrote: »

This debacle has united Dublin and London governments which is a good thing to come out of this mess.

Agree, UK and Ireland relations need a lot of patching up. Hopefully this helps.

HalfAndHalf

sondagefaux wrote: »

The full text of the procedure used to invoke Article 16 of the Protocol, as set out in Annex 7 to the Protocol:



From paragraph 3:

When exceptional circumstances requiring immediate action exclude prior examination, the Union or
the United Kingdom, as the case may be, may apply forthwith the protective measures strictly
necessary to remedy the situation.

This means either party can invoke Article 16 without the normal notification procedures in 'exceptional circumstances requiring immediate action'.

There's no definition in the Protocol of what constiututes 'exceptional circumstances requiring immediate action'.

There's been no breach of international law, no breach of the Withdrawal Agreement, no breach of the Protocol,.no breach of Annex 7.

This is a political screw up, not a legal one.

I stand corrected. Thanks.

Not on the fact it’s the icing on the monumental cock up cake of a week but on the article, I concede.

Now hopefully they’ll stop ****ing around and get us our goddam vaccines!

ujjjjjjjjj

yagan wrote: »

And here it is from the brand new account, ze germans blah blah blah.

proud Irish man my arse. More likely fully paid up Daily Express reader.

Yes new account so put anything I say on the tip due to that or you could take your head out of your rear end for one second and look at what is actually happening. Or shall we just continue singing rebel songs and going on about 800 years for another 800 years......tedious nonsense.

Harsh reality is you will be waiting for a vaccine for months longer than your British cousin across the water and 'Ze Germans' and the EU mess is the cause of this. Dismiss reality if you want.

And please don't insult my intelligence by calling me a Daily Express Reader, it is a rag like most of the British press.

Larbre34

So, President Van der Leyen now has to address how a) this confusion today happened, b) how the Brussels bureaucracy was so far behind the 8 ball when it came to contracting vaccines, c) how they were so late approving vaccines, d) how they were so late deploying vaccines, e) if and how the contract with Astra Zeneca gave that company the idea that they could completely take the piss with the deliverables.

Its not great.

Hurrache

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

So your view is that the commission has not shown themselves to be utterly incompetent today but rather are playing 4D chess?

One thing that many people are missing throughout this whole mess is that the EU are us, and it's yours, mine, our vaccine that they're arguing to get as quickly as possible.

HalfAndHalf

Hurrache wrote: »

One thing that many people are missing throughout this whole mess is that the EU are us, and it's yours, mine, our vaccine that they're arguing to get as quickly as possible.

But a lot of us don’t think they are, we think they’re arguing to cover their asses! The Inclusive Vaccine alliance of France, Germany, Italy and the Netherlands negotiated the contract back in June, AZ have stated the EC contract is the same. The EC told the IVA to let them handle negotiations and then proceeded to take a very long time not changing anything then finally agreeing it.

This is not acceptable at any level.