Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Hurrache

iamnotme wrote: »

Top story on BBC and Guardian. This is an EU fiasco, again. People here think the EU is infallible.

Outside of the UK, and few in Ireland, few give a crap what the UK media thinks, especially in Europe. And that's not just my opinion Brexit didn't even appear high on the list of EU priorities coming up to the date the UK actually left the EU.

HalfAndHalf

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

Where I’ve taken the contract views from and some have been posted in the AV thread are from, you would assume notable Belgian Lawyers posting on Twitter that they think the release of the contract has done the EC no ta ours and strongly backs AZs stance.

Especially clause 5 and it’s subsections which state the EU negotiated priority supply from EU plants specifically for the EU’s initial order of 300 million doses. Subsection 5.4 then states that if the EU want their additional 100 million doses they can come from EU/U.K. or other country plants.

Shouting that they should come from the U.K. is all well and good but it isn’t in the contract.

Clause 5.1 says that the primary batch should come from the EU if possible, clause 5.4 says that the EU includes the UK, neither say that the batches need to come exclusively from the EU. The EU was trying to prioritise EU manufacturing in these clauses, but AZ was still under contract to provide the 300M from anywhere -- as clause 5.4 clearly says.

More important is clause 13 (e) which says that AZ:

AstraZeneca. AstraZeneca represents, warrants and covenants to the Commission and the Participating Member States that:

it is not under any obligation, contractual or otherwise, to any Person or third party in respect of the Initial Europe Doses or that conflicts with or is inconsistent in any material respect with the terms of this Agreement or that would impede the complete fulfillment of its obligations under this Agreement;

ujjjjjjjjj

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a bit odd then that people are not supporting the EU to get batter, since this would in fact benefit the actual country they are living in. Offline I think support for the EU on this is pretty high. Online is a different matter.

It's really a case of keeping an open and questioning mind as to EU behaviour at all times. I think my issue in recent years (post Brexit ref mess) is that we have been 100% behind the EU and they can do no wrong. For Irish interests you have to keep an open mind on the forces in play in Europe and always look to see who is pushing for what. Very simple and big example being the introduction of the Euro and loss of control over interest rates and monetary policy has undoubtedly caused significant issue for many countries in Europe - i.e 2008 German Banks pump low interest loans into Ireland and we have the mother of all banking and property crashes while we all buy BMW's and Mercs.....yes it's a simplistic example but we have to question and probe the EU and ensure it meets our needs as a country. We need to endlessly push and question to secure the best for Ireland. This vaccine roleout illustrates that it's not always the case. German behaviour buying additional vaccines from Pfizer off the EU books should get our government thinking differently too but our government in recent weeks has been entirely behind waiting for EU procurement. Could we have followed the UK regulator and even looked to get our hands on some AZ vaccine through the UK - perhaps and look the Germans don't seem to have a problem working away on their own. Don't be slavish to the EU - use it to help us but don't not look at other options.

sondagefaux

Deleted User wrote: »

Clause 5.1 says that the primary batch should come from the EU if possible, clause 5.4 says that the EU includes the UK, neither say that the batches need to come exclusively from the EU. The EU was trying to prioritise EU manufacturing in these clauses, but AZ was still under contract to provide the 300M from anywhere -- as clause 5.4 clearly says.

More important is clause 13 (e) which says that AZ:

AstraZeneca. AstraZeneca represents, warrants and covenants to the Commission and the Participating Member States that:

it is not under any obligation, contractual or otherwise, to any Person or third party in respect of the Initial Europe Doses or that conflicts with or is inconsistent in any material respect with the terms of this Agreement or that would impede the complete fulfillment of its obligations under this Agreement;

That's the key clause. If AZ wants to maintain its stance that it has to supply the UK first because of its contract with the UK, how does it explain this away?

I wouldn't be shocked to see this reach the criminal courts in a couple of years time.

sondagefaux

Deleted User wrote: »

That's a non sequitur. That something is on The BBC and the Guardian doesn't mean that the EU cocked up.

British public opinion is not something the EU needs to be concerned about.

ujjjjjjjjj

sondagefaux wrote: »

British public opinion is not something the EU needs to be concerned about.

In fairness the Guardian isn't exactly anti EU or Pro Brexit......they have consistently been pro EU and Anti Brexit.

iamnotme

Hurrache wrote: »

Outside of the UK, and few in Ireland, few give a crap what the UK media thinks, especially in Europe. And that's not just my opinion Brexit didn't even appear high on the list of EU priorities coming up to the date the UK actually left the EU.

Fair enough, i live near the border, and Brexit matters here. It's wise to keep up with British media. Earlier poster quoted "tabloids and yellow journalism". Not so. As for EU priorities, Ireland well down the list.

ancapailldorcha

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

In fairness the Guardian isn't exactly anti EU or Pro Brexit......they have consistently been pro EU and Anti Brexit.

It doesn't matter. Brexit is done and the Guardian clearly wasn't influential enough to influence either Brexit or the two elections which followed it.

dublin49

OMG ,an official EU statement NOW called an accident,disaster and Arlene and Dodds making hay already.Massive needless own goal by EU.

listermint

iamnotme wrote: »

Fair enough, i live near the border, and Brexit matters here. It's wise to keep up with British media. Earlier poster quoted "tabloids and yellow journalism". Not so. As for EU priorities, Ireland well down the list.

Your right. It's why they're getting a quarter of the brexit fund.

That's how far down they are......

iamnotme

sondagefaux wrote: »

British public opinion is not something the EU needs to be concerned about.

Irish public opinion is not something the EU needs to be concerned about.

FrancieBrady

iamnotme wrote: »

Irish public opinion is not something the EU needs to be concerned about.

The Commission seem to have listened to Irish opinion tonight. But yeh, we have no say...de Germans etc etc.

Hurrache

iamnotme wrote: »

Irish public opinion is not something the EU needs to be concerned about.

If the EU, us, weren't concerned about Irish opinion Brexit would have been resolved and signed off on years ago.

However tonight certainly seems to be a diplomatic mess.

sondagefaux

iamnotme wrote: »

Irish public opinion is not something the EU needs to be concerned about.

Of course we are. By we I mean all the member states, including Ireland. The EU is not something separate from Ireland.

Irish public opinion led to the EU adding special provisions about Ireland's then constiutuonal position on abortion to the EU treaty.

https://euobserver.com/news/4646

Irish public opinion led to the EU amending the EU treaties to meet Irish concerns.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32013D0106

Irish public opinion led to the insistence on the Protocol in the Withdrawal Agreement, almost at the cost of no deal with the UK.

Irish public opinion led to the swift withdrawal of the proposal to invoke Article 16 of the Protocol.

Irish public opinion, and the opinions of Irish governments, has been very influential within the EU.

The members of the EU have gone to huge lengths to satisfy Irish public opinion.

FrancieBrady

sondagefaux wrote: »

Of course it is.

Irish public opinion led to the EU adding special provisions about Ireland's then constiutuonal position on abortion to the EU treaty.

https://euobserver.com/news/4646

Irish public opinion led to the EU amending the EU treaties to meet Irish concerns.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32013D0106

Irish public opinion led to the insistence on the Protocol in the Withdrawal Agreement, almost at the cost of no deal with the UK.

Irish public opinion led to the swift withdrawal of the proposal to invoke Article 16 of the Protocol.

Irish public opinion, and the opinions of Irish governments, has been very influential within the EU.

The other members of the EU have gone to huge lengths to satisfy Irish public opinion.

Good post. Fair play

ujjjjjjjjj

SNIP. No nicknames.

Burlap_Sack

Somehow we have become almost a peace broker between the UK & EU. It would be all out political war between the two if we weren't stuck in the middle.

sondagefaux

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Good post. Fair play

Simple reality. The EU is its members, not something imposed on its members.

Naturally, public opinion of its members is of concern.

If this row concerned Gibraltar, Spanish public opinion would be of great concern.

Each member state has different issues that are of great importance to it, and these issues are dealt with bearing that in mind.

People will screw up from time to time.

What tonight demonstrates is that when this happens, it's fixed to suit the particular member state's specific concerns.

Hurrache

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

In fairness to Mehole

Who?

BonnieSituation

iamnotme wrote: »

Irish public opinion is not something the EU needs to be concerned about.

We. Are. The. EU.

---

Just read through tonight's contributions. Wow. That was something. Like a rollercoaster ride.

sondagefaux

Burlap_Sack wrote: »

Somehow we have become almost a peace broker between the UK & EU. It would be all out political war between the two if we weren't stuck in the middle.

The Irish government has been the UK's best ally in the Brexit process.

It will always act as an intermediary in UK-EU disputes, making sure that Ireland's interests are respected too.

Sweden plays a aimilar role with respect to Norway's relationships with the EU.

The UK media and political classes in general are unlikely to ever acknowledge this.

iamnotme

sondagefaux wrote: »

Of course we are. By we I mean all the member states, including Ireland. The EU is not something separate from Ireland.

Irish public opinion led to the EU adding special provisions about Ireland's then constiutuonal position on abortion to the EU treaty.

https://euobserver.com/news/4646

Irish public opinion led to the EU amending the EU treaties to meet Irish concerns.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32013D0106

Irish public opinion led to the insistence on the Protocol in the Withdrawal Agreement, almost at the cost of no deal with the UK.

Irish public opinion led to the swift withdrawal of the proposal to invoke Article 16 of the Protocol.

Irish public opinion, and the opinions of Irish governments, has been very influential within the EU.

The members of the EU have gone to huge lengths to satisfy Irish p[/QUOTE
1. It was up to the Irish themselves to address the abortion issue.
2. This old rubbish? The Irish got it right first time (twice) and pro-EU scared a small minority into changing their gut instinct.
3 A red herring if ever. May had negotiated a better deal for the British. Irish were not at table.
4 Tonight? They didn't have a clue what was happening.
5 No, go ask a trawlerman.

O'Neill

Burlap_Sack wrote: »

Somehow we have become almost a peace broker between the UK & EU. It would be all out political war between the two if we weren't stuck in the middle.

Like everything everything Brexit related, Northern Ireland has and will continue to be in the middle of this nonsense.

Burlap_Sack

sondagefaux wrote: »

The Irish government has been the UK's best ally in the Brexit process.

It will always act as an intermediary in UK-EU disputes, making sure that Ireland's interests are respected too.

Sweden plays a aimilar role with respect to Norway's relationships with the EU.

The UK media and political classes in general are unlikely to ever acknowledge this.

The way it's going it won't be long before we have a hard decision to make. The UK seems to of out manoeuvred the EU and some members are clearly baying for blood. The Tories are only to happy to call foul about the potential enacting of article 16. The EU may have revoked but have already showed intention.

listermint

Burlap_Sack wrote: »

The way it's going it won't be long before we have a hard decision to make. The UK seems to of out manoeuvred the EU and some members are clearly baying for blood. The Tories are only to happy to call foul about the potential enacting of article 16. The EU may have revoked but have already showed intention.

I'm always interested in this line of thinking what does the UK have to gain by further limiting their trading mechanism and ramping up more rhetoric.


Please details..

Burlap_Sack

listermint wrote: »

I'm always interested in this line of thinking what does the UK have to gain by further limiting their trading mechanism and ramping up more rhetoric.


Please details..

You'd have to ask them, they are the ones doing it. I'm sure it isn't without reason.

Hurrache

iamnotme wrote: »

2. This old rubbish? The Irish got it right first time (twice) and pro-EU scared a small minority into changing their gut instinct.

Fixing your quotes, but at this stage I thought an Irish man posting on a Politics forum on an EU topic would have at least a basic understanding of the various EU related referenda.

sondagefaux

iamnotme wrote: »

1. It was up to the Irish themselves to address the abortion issue.

But there was concern that EU law might over-ride Ireland's abortion laws, misplaced as it turns out.

The point is those concerns were dealt with by a Protocol specifically guaranteeing Ireland's constitutional position.

iamnotme wrote: »

2. This old rubbish? The Irish got it right first time (twice) and pro-EU scared a small minority into changing their gut instinct.

Glib and angry answer to serious issues which led to a Protocol clariftying that the Treaty of Lisbon does not provide for the creation of an EU army, clarifies that member states control their own military and armed forces without question, and reiterated the original protocol on Ireland's constitutional position on abortion, all issues that were given prominence by the anti-Lisbon campaigns.

iamnotme wrote: »

3 A red herring if ever. May had negotiated a better deal for the British. Irish were not at table.

Apart from the commitment made by every member state, the Commission and the negotiating team to ensure Ireland's position on Northern Ireland, sure.

iamnotme wrote: »

4 Tonight? They didn't have a clue what was happening.

The Irish government, chosen from the Irish people's representatives, stepped in and fixed it in a matter of hours.

iamnotme wrote: »

5 No, go ask a trawlerman.

The ones now outside the EU who are tearing their hair out over Brexit?

sondagefaux

Hurrache wrote: »

Fixing your quotes, but at this stage I thought an Irish man posting on a Politics forum on an EU topic would havem at least a basic understanding of the various EU related referenda.

Calling us 'the Irish'? Always a sure sign...

sondagefaux

O'Neill wrote: »

Like everything everything Brexit related, Northern Ireland has and will continue to be in the middle of this nonsense.

There's a very straightforward fix for that. Provided for in the GFA, British law and rhe Irish constitution.