When will it all end?

Ginger n Lemon

timmyntc wrote: »

The reason for that is that Irelands lockdown started later than the others. We didnt lock down till March, other countries started in February. When you're looking at moving averages then yes, you have to start when lockdown starts - otherwise data is skewed.

Fact remains that since last March up to now, we have had most strict restrictions in Europe. We havent had the least deaths per capita in Europe - so by that metric our lockdown has been a failure and we have hit diminishing returns.

Unfortunately true. Harshest lockdown does not mean lowest deaths or infections. Thats why you really want your govt engaging their neurons when it comes to deciding on restrictions. Unfortunately ours chose to delegate that to single issue zealots who actually believe that society can go months on end staying at home, isolated, getting obese while waiting for a vaccine. Flawed strategy tbf

Hector Savage

Lundstram wrote: »

Like anyone mentioning vaccine passports 6 months ago? They were labelled as conspiracy theorists too and look at us now.

It's a good point, I mean I am happy to take the vaccine just to get back to some bit of normality , but the fact that it was considered crazy talk last year makes me wonder what will be truth in another 6 months ?

Mandatory masks indoors as standard from now on ???

Ginger n Lemon

Hector Savage wrote: »

It's a good point, I mean I am happy to take the vaccine just to get back to some bit of normality , but the fact that it was considered crazy talk last year makes me wonder what will be truth in another 6 months ?

Mandatory masks indoors as standard from now on ???

Professors, who have our best interest at heart, are way ahead of you pal

"UCC professor calls for 'vaccination dividend' to allow people to mix freely

Prof Liam Fanning said there were some “simple things” that the public could be allowed to do out of doors, especially in counties with low case numbers.

“If you can see that people who are vaccinated are moving more freely that will be an incentive.”

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40254014.html

Good doctor :rolleyes:

Mr. Karate

Hector Savage wrote: »

Mandatory masks indoors as standard from now on ???

I'd say that's the plan in all their "Living with Covid" :rolleyes: plans there's been a mention of when we can stop wearing them. Not at Level 2 or Level 1. And there's never been a Level 0- Full Normality. So its very obvious that they never intend to let us return to actual normality. Hence all the "New Normal" and "Some sense of Normality" garbage for the last year.

trixi001

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

I am almost lost for words. Its rare that I read a post that suggests our lockdown is not severe.

Like in reality - I go to Dublin city center today and I see over 80% of shops closed. How can that be "quite different" to reality of harsh lockdown? They ve been closed for 3 months straight now btw. and were closed for better part of 5 months last year.

8 months in last 12 months Graham. 80% of shops closed. This is not harsh lockdown?

So called wet pubs opened from 21 Sept to 7th Oct only

Intercounty travel only allowed for about 3 months out of the last year (Late June to early Oct and Christmas)..and some counties were even in local restrictions for part of this (Dublin, Donegal, Kildare...)

Only country in Europe where construction is closed

Shops closed - even for click & collect

How is this not harsh?

Lundstram

Sure it’s only on paper.

francogarbanzo

trixi001 wrote: »

So called wet pubs opened from 21 Sept to 7th Oct only

Intercounty travel only allowed for about 3 months out of the last year (Late June to early Oct and Christmas)..and some counties were even in local restrictions for part of this (Dublin, Donegal, Kildare...)

Only country in Europe where construction is closed

Shops closed - even for click & collect

How is this not harsh?

Last week I was told it wasn't harsh because you can still go grocery shopping wherever you'd like and nobody needs to exercise outside of 5k anyway.

mcsean2163

francogarbanzo wrote: »

Last week I was told it wasn't harsh because you can still go grocery shopping wherever you'd like and nobody needs to exercise outside of 5k anyway.

Well, I guess it's worth considering that some people are homebirds and do not exercise, so they might think you sound mad. They may be quite happy working from home and can't see an issue...

I'm not one of those people but I guess they're probably a pretty big cohort

bucketybuck

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

I almost dont care about Mehole letting us down at 6.01 tonight.

Does anybody even listen to that rubbish anymore?

I know I don't. I have no trust in our government, I have no faith in them, I don't believe a word the ***** say and I have no interest in meholes empty bull****.

He thinks he is doing us a favour by going to 8kms restriction or something? **** him.

Mr. Karate

Mr. Karate wrote: »

I'd say that's the plan in all their "Living with Covid" :rolleyes: plans there's been a mention of when we can stop wearing them. Not at Level 2 or Level 1. And there's never been a Level 0- Full Normality. So its very obvious that they never intend to let us return to actual normality. Hence all the "New Normal" and "Some sense of Normality" garbage for the last year.

There's a level 0 in Scotland's roadmap, but the level 0 includes mask wearing. But it's all very vague because Sturgeon said they hope to be able to go beyond that, i.e. level 0, so it remains to be seen what will happen. But at least in the UK mask wearing has been talked about. Hancock has said on several occasions that he wants to move to people deciding for themselves whether to wear them or not. He has said that on several occasions. But then Dr Mary Ramsay of PHE is predicting they'll be in place for years. Professor Neil Ferguson predicted a few days ago they'd no longer be required by law come autumn. It's hard to know. There'll be a review into mask wearing in the UK in a couple of months.

There has been no mention of them being scrapped in Ireland, however. Ronan Glynn's "a degree of normality" appears to be the heavily restricted level 1. Thank God there's a big world out there. Mask wearing is not a low level restriction, in my opinion. It's a very high level restriction. It makes for a completely different culture.

Plumbthedepths

I'm beginning to think it won't end until the money runs out.

JDD

bucketybuck wrote: »

Does anybody even listen to that rubbish anymore?

I know I don't. I have no trust in our government, I have no faith in them, I don't believe a word the ***** say and I have no interest in meholes empty bull****.

He thinks he is doing us a favour by going to 8kms restriction or something? **** him.

I agree. I won't be listening at 6pm either.

Despite my misgivings about Sinn Fein, I'll be voting for them at the next election. While FG did a good job March to June, that doesn't wipe clean the last five years. And FF have been an utter sh*tshow.

gozunda

Hector Savage wrote: »

So Graham how should they handle this ?

Since "variants" will always be about - even vaccine resistant ones, so we could be back to square 1 even when population is vaccinated.

How about a learn to live with strategy like they are doing around europe ?

What like this?

https://www.mail.com/int/scitech/health/10658028-paris-doctors-warn-catastrophic-overload-virus-cas.html#.1272-stage-mostviewed1-4

snotboogie

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There's a level 0 in Scotland's roadmap, but the level 0 includes mask wearing. But it's all very vague because Sturgeon said they hope to be able to go beyond that, i.e. level 0, so it remains to be seen what will happen. But at least in the UK mask wearing has been talked about. Hancock has said on several occasions that he wants to move to people deciding for themselves whether to wear them or not. He has said that on several occasions. But then Dr Mary Ramsay of PHE is predicting they'll be in place for years. Professor Neil Ferguson predicted a few days ago they'd no longer be required by law come autumn. It's hard to know. There'll be a review into mask wearing in the UK in a couple of months.

There has been no mention of them being scrapped in Ireland, however. Ronan Glynn's "a degree of normality" appears to be the heavily restricted level 1. Thank God there's a big world out there. Mask wearing is not a low level restriction, in my opinion. It's a very high level restriction. It makes for a completely different culture.

Masks are a political flash point but social distancing is a far bigger restriction.

Lundstram

JDD wrote: »

I agree. I won't be listening at 6pm either.

Despite my misgivings about Sinn Fein, I'll be voting for them at the next election. While FG did a good job March to June, that doesn't wipe clean the last five years. And FF have been an utter sh*tshow.

Sinn Fein want harsher restrictions! They are a bunch of cowards.

They went into hiding when their supporters needed them the most. I wouldn’t trust them to mind a goldfish.

People forget MM was front and centre during the fall out of 2008. What does Ireland do? Make him Taoiseach 12 years later.

Thought FG were doing a decent job until election time. Change for the sake of change is never a good thing.

Ginger n Lemon

gozunda wrote: »

What like this?

https://www.mail.com/int/scitech/health/10658028-paris-doctors-warn-catastrophic-overload-virus-cas.html#.1272-stage-mostviewed1-4

But with infections soaring and hospitals increasingly running short of intensive-care beds, doctors have been stepping up the pressure for a full French lockdown. Writing in Le Journal du Dimanche, 41 Paris-region hospital doctors said: “We have never known such a situation, even during the worst (terror) attacks” that targeted the French capital, notably assaults by Islamic State extremists in 2015 that killed 130 people and filled Paris emergency wards with the wounded.

Is this a joke? 41 doctors?

Another group of nine critical-care doctors writing in the newspaper Le Monde also warned that intensive care units in Paris may have to refuse patients.

9 doctors?

Theres thousands of doctors in Paris region. Seriously you keep linking Gerry Killeen material from abroad looking for us to get worried but it does not work that way, in fact it works the other way, its laughable.

This is actually funny, thank you for giving me a good laugh

gozunda

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

"If we look at restrictions in Ireland since the 12th March 2020 to 22nd March 2021, then we note that Ireland has had the strictest restrictions in Europe over this time frame."

"When we look at the fact that Ireland has the least amount of people over 65 in the EU and has spent the most in the EU in 2020, we might have hoped to have had a lesser lockdown.

Pure anger. And rage. Reading that. Fkin NPHET. Useless single issue zealots.

The only zealots I hear are the screamers ...

You left out the conclusion interestingly enough

However, in stating the above, Ireland has faired relatively well in terms of COVID-19 death per million in Europe so maybe the restrictions have worked

Not only have we've faired better - as detailed we've kept the death rate down. The UK has a death rate which places it in the top 5 in the world. We have half of that.

•Number of deaths per 100,000 population

UK 189.29

Ireland 93.53

And the UK only started to bring their death rate down when the eventually put in place restrictions even more stringent than ours.

JDD

Lundstram wrote: »

Sinn Fein want harsher restrictions! They are a bunch of cowards.

They went into hiding when their supporters needed them the most. I wouldn’t trust them to mind a goldfish.

People forget MM was front and centre during the fall out of 2008. What does Ireland do? Make him Taoiseach 12 years later.

Thought FG were doing a decent job until election time. Change for the sake of change is never a good thing.

Ah they weren't though. I mean, we'd go back to that point in a heartbeat - any complaints we had then seem dwarfed by the complaints we have now, but even still...

The housing crisis. The inability accept that the State needed to build houses on state land. The reliance on the private sector for social renting needs. The lad in a tent scooped up by a digger on the canal. The number of children in temporary bed and breakfasts. The overflowing hospitals. The reluctance to get the religious orders to pay out to abuse victims.

Now, they held a steady hand on the recovery, helped immensely by the global recovery and the fact that Ireland is a very open economy. But that's not enough to get another five years.

gozunda

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

But with infections soaring and hospitals increasingly running short of intensive-care beds, doctors have been stepping up the pressure for a full French lockdown. Writing in Le Journal du Dimanche, 41 Paris-region hospital doctors said: “We have never known such a situation, even during the worst (terror) attacks” that targeted the French capital, notably assaults by Islamic State extremists in 2015 that killed 130 people and filled Paris emergency wards with the wounded.

Is this a joke? 41 doctors?

Another group of nine critical-care doctors writing in the newspaper Le Monde also warned that intensive care units in Paris may have to refuse patients.

9 doctors?

Theres thousands of doctors in Paris region. Seriously you keep linking Gerry Killeen material from abroad looking for us to get worried but it does not work that way, in fact it works the other way, its laughable.

This is actually funny, thank you for giving me a good laugh

Oops my bad! Wtf would doctors on the front line know! Those doctors in France who've got together with Gerry Killen (wtf?) in Cork to make up stuff. :rolleyes:

Maybe its got something to do with this no?



"Funny" that "infections soaring and hospitals increasingly running short of intensive-care beds"?

Yeah sure all that's "laughable" - but only if you have your fingers in your ears, your head in the sand or someplace darker.

Doctor Jimbob

gozunda wrote: »

The only zealots I hear are the screamers ...

You left out the conclusion interestingly enough



Not only have we've faired better - we've kept the death rate down. The UK has a death rate which places it in the top 5 in the world. We have half of that.

•Number of deaths per 100,000 population

UK 189.29

Ireland 93.53

And the UK only started to bring their death rate down when the eventually put in place restrictions even more stringent than ours.

New York, which had one of the strictest lockdowns in the US, has a death rate of 259 per 100k.

Texas, recently ridiculed by Joe Biden for easing restrictions too much, has a death rate of 167 per 100k.

New York's population density is 159 per square km compared to 40 in Texas.

The UK's population density is 279 per square km compared to 70 in Ireland.

I don't know whether that's definitely the reason for the death rate discrepancies, but it's possible there are factors other than government management of the situation responsible for the UK's higher death rate.

Dr. Bre

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I'm beginning to think it won't end until the money runs out.

Money grows on trees . It will never run out

timmyntc

gozunda wrote: »

The only zealots I hear are the screamers ...

You left out the conclusion interestingly enough



Not only have we've faired better - we've kept the death rate down. The UK has a death rate which places it in the top 5 in the world. We have half of that.

•Number of deaths per 100,000 population

UK 189.29

Ireland 93.53

And the UK only started to bring their death rate down when the eventually put in place restrictions even more stringent than ours.

So is that the goal? Aim for as low deaths as possible?

Because if we lockdown every winter we could wipe out flu deaths
If we stop people driving we could stop road traffic accidents
If we ban the sale of red meat and fried foods we could cut heart disease deaths

UK are about to reopen. We dont even have a plan. We are the only country to have construction closed.
Though the UK will likely have quite bad economic consequences from covid response too, it wont be nearly as bad as Irelands.

gozunda

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

New York, which had one of the strictest lockdowns in the US, has a death rate of 259 per 100k.

Texas, recently ridiculed by Joe Biden for easing restrictions too much, has a death rate of 167 per 100k.

New York's population density is 159 per square km compared to 40 in Texas.

The UK's population density is 279 per square km compared to 70 in Ireland.

I don't know whether that's definitely the reason for the death rate discrepancies, but it's possible there are factors other than government management of the situation responsible for the UK's higher death rate.

Why breaking it down by state? The US has one of the Top 10 death rates in the World

The strange thing about population density- is some of the most population dense places in the world have had relatively low death rates due to their restrictions.

ujjjjjjjjj

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

New York, which had one of the strictest lockdowns in the US, has a death rate of 259 per 100k.

Texas, recently ridiculed by Joe Biden for easing restrictions too much, has a death rate of 167 per 100k.

New York's population density is 159 per square km compared to 40 in Texas.

The UK's population density is 279 per square km compared to 70 in Ireland.

I don't know whether that's definitely the reason for the death rate discrepancies, but it's possible there are factors other than government management of the situation responsible for the UK's higher death rate.

Average age in the UK also far higher.

Bottom line is with any respiratory virus like this it would be impossible to see how the UK's infection and death rate would not be higher. We keep clinging onto this 'well look how bad it was in the UK' as some kinda reassurance that we have done OK and to wallpaper over the EU and Irish government vaccine debacle.

The UK has far higher population density, it is a global travel hub with huge diversity in its population, substantially higher average age and mega cities which are ideal for viral spread.

It doesn't tale a genius to figure it out......

gozunda

timmyntc wrote: »

So is that the goal? Aim for as low deaths as possible?
Because if we lockdown every winter we could wipe out flu deathsIf we stop people driving we could stop road traffic accidentsIf we ban the sale of red meat and fried foods we could cut heart disease deathsUK are about to reopen. We dont even have a plan. We are the only country to have construction closed.Though the UK will likely have quite bad economic consequences from covid response too, it wont be nearly as bad as Irelands.

Where was that stated? Or are you going to just engage in endless what aboutery? As detailed with regard to the link in my original comment- it's certainly not just about deaths

This is the relevant section taken from gingernemons link and to which I replied.

However, in stating the above, Ireland has faired relatively well in terms of COVID-19 death per million in Europe so maybe the restrictions have worked

I just love when covid deniers / skeptics go to great lengths and endless trouble to try and disprove what is already known.

It doesn't wash I'm afraid.

The Big Easy

Dr. Bre wrote: »

Money grows on trees . It will never run out

It actually doesn't run out in situations like this. There's nothing behind any of these numbers anymore, the gold standard is long gone. Quantitative easing is a more and more acceptable response to such crises.

The debt is then constantly rolled over and inflation eventually takes care of it. Of course the servicing of such debt is taken from citizens pockets through taxation. It's in no one's interest to collapse the whole house of cards, so on and on it goes.

Doctor Jimbob

gozunda wrote: »

Why breaking it down by state? The US has one of the Top 10 death rates in the World

The strange thing about population density- is some of the most population dense places in the world have had relatively low death rates due to their restrictions.

Why not combine Ireland and the UK with the rest of Europe if you're going to combine states in the US? It's one country, but the variation in restrictions and demographics between states makes it meaningless to compare them as a whole.

I'm not claiming this is entirely down to population density either. I'm saying it's not as simple as saying we have high restrictions and low death rates, therefore the restrictions worked.

Ginger n Lemon

I have a strange feeling Gozunda isnt happy with ANY relaxation of restrictions.

But please correct me if I am wrong. :pac:

Goz - you gonna play some golf later in the month?

gozunda

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Why not combine Ireland and the UK with the rest of Europe if you're going to combine states in the US? It's one country, but the variation in restrictions and demographics between states makes it meaningless to compare them as a whole.

I'm not claiming this is entirely down to population density either. I'm saying it's not as simple as saying we have high restrictions and low death rates, therefore the restrictions worked.

Erm for the simple reason - Ireland is a country. The UK is a country. And yes the US is a country the last time I checked.

If you like you could compare Europe with the Americas - if you want to do regions.

And no I'm not implying a direct correlation eitherway. But what we do know is that looking at countries overall - those countries with consistent restrictions tend to have lower death rates. What else comes into playy? I don't really know. It doesn't seem to be population density either.

snotboogie

snotboogie wrote: »

Masks are a political flash point but social distancing is a far bigger restriction.

Sorry, I meant more on an individual level. But on an economic level social distancing is a massive restriction. Although Dr Ramsay of PHE said both mask wearing and social distancing were low level restrictions. I don't know how social distancing could be considered a low level restrictions in terms of the economy.

Just on the point I made before about there being 0 opposition in Ireland, be it in the media or in politics, here's the main article on the Daily Mail at the moment: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9417711/More-HALF-people-England-Covid-antibodies-thanks-huge-vaccination-drive.html

"More than HALF of people in England now have Covid antibodies thanks to huge vaccination drive and natural immunity - with PM facing more calls to lift restrictions NOW as lockdown-weary Brits head to beaches and parks to sizzle on hottest day of the year"

Look at the difference opposition in, and pressure from, the media can make. If there were calls in Dáil Éireann (would never happen, I know) RTÉ either wouldn't report on it, or the story would be well hidden so that people wouldn't see it on the website.

I know it's the Daily Mail and that a lot of posters think it's a rag, but it's still an established newspaper and it's still opposition.