The way forward for LC2021

Random sample

The sec have said they will send out the usual reappointment form to everyone who applied last year. It’s not assumed that you will do it.

am_zarathustra

Treppen wrote: »

Compare that to the standard of individual teacher predicted grades from a hotchpotch of unique class tests and interactions.

Absolutely, it's would be better if everyone had the same exam corrected from the same marrking scheme but given most subjects are online now what is the benefit? You'd just get an ok system in place instead of just using the SEC system and sticking with your experienced examiners correcting blindly!

Wombatman

Teach30 wrote: »

I’ve had an email from one of my LCs today hoping I’m doing well... that’s the start of the licking up now.

That type of imitative had to be worth a couple of points. It's rewarded in every workplace right, so should prepare them for life after education? :pac:

rainbowtrout

Treppen wrote: »

Compare that to the standard of individual teacher predicted grades from a hotchpotch of unique class tests and interactions.

There was very little to lose in writing down a H1 or H6 for a student last year. Literally the only thing submitted was the form we wrote the mark on. Crazy when you think about it. But it was a predicted grade.

You get into the territory of actual marking you'll have teachers looking at papers where students are on 89% and actively looking for marks to get them to 90%, or down the other end of the scale so they will pass. There is the subjectivity of 'Ah he hasn't really worded it correctly, but I know he knows this, he's been able to explain it in class in the past' vs 'That little bollix hasn't done a stroke of work all year' And can you imagine the appeals???

Teachers way overmarked last year with predicted grades.

Normally 5.4% of all grades are H1s. With predicted grades it was 9%. Before the DES moderated, it was 13.4%. Apply that to marking......


https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40044278.html

rainbowtrout

Teach30 wrote: »

I agree, I love teaching but detest correcting. Have no interest in correcting at any level, I just dont have the attention span for it. I give the bare minimum of tests.

With that in mind I also have very little to go on if I have to predict. I’m a terrible record keeper I gave back tests but forget to keep note of all of them. I never record who hands up homework but I’d have a fair idea, just no actual record.

I’ve had an email from one of my LCs today hoping I’m doing well... that’s the start of the licking up now.

And that's another issue. Foisting marking the Leaving Cert on people who have never done it and have no desire to do it would be a disaster.

deiseindublin

Random sample wrote: »

What else are the sec staff doing though? Considering how busy they normally would be with junior and leaving cert, they had a much reduced workload last year. There’s a reason examiners have not been appointed yet. Sec staff are doing something else. I don’t know what!

I'd say they are busy at mo getting results out for November LC exams. Also, making sure they have drafts and examiner applications for all 2021 papers, just in case, along with LCA session credits etc.

I'd say they have to be sitting with all ready, just not sending the letters.

Anytime I've been there they have been up the walls busy, you never see somebody standing still. Also, SEC guy told me that quite a few of them have been seconded to SW dept.

am_zarathustra

deiseindublin wrote: »

I'd say they are busy at mo getting results out for November LC exams. Also, making sure they have drafts and examiner applications for all 2021 papers, just in case, along with LCA session credits etc.

I'd say they have to be sitting with all ready, just not sending the letters.

Anytime I've been there they have been up the walls busy, you never see somebody standing still. Also, SEC guy told me that quite a few of them have been seconded to SW dept.

I actually didn't account for secondments actually, that makes sense!!

shesty

Angry these discussions are happening now and didn't happen in the 5 months between March and August last year.That they let schools go back with no contingency plans for numbers rising.

Not surprising but it makes me beyond angry all the same.

amacca

shesty wrote: »

Angry these discussions are happening now and didn't happen in the 5 months between March and August last year.That they let schools go back with no contingency plans for numbers rising.

Not surprising but it makes me beyond angry all the same.

They did have a contingency plan of sorts:D

It's name was operation Foley..........

Treppen

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Absolutely, it's would be better if everyone had the same exam corrected from the same marrking scheme but given most subjects are online now what is the benefit? You'd just get an ok system in place instead of just using the SEC system and sticking with your experienced examiners correcting blindly!

I was thinking of it reducing the turnaround time from one month conference and marking, to one week... Especially if exams have to be pushed back from June .

Treppen

rainbowtrout wrote: »

And that's another issue. Foisting marking the Leaving Cert on people who have never done it and have no desire to do it would be a disaster.

I'd assume at a very basic level, a teacher should be qualified enough to be able to mark their classes' exams. I mark my own mocks whenever required, I have no desire to do it but it's my job... I'd 100% much rather mark my classes exams rather than give a predicted grade.

Smacruairi

Treppen wrote: »

I'd 100% much rather mark my classes exams rather than give a predicted grade.

Yeah but how much would you be subconsciously grading to your own prediction. I'm languages and it can be very subjective on occasion.

am_zarathustra

Treppen wrote: »

I'd assume at a very basic level, a teacher should be qualified enough to be able to mark their classes' exams. I mark my own mocks whenever required, I have no desire to do it but it's my job... I'd 100% much rather mark my classes exams rather than give a predicted grade.

So many kids would appeal. Who would correct then? I'd tell anyone I know to appeal if they weren't happy and a teacher who'd never corrected for the SEC had corrected.

Treppen

Smacruairi wrote: »

Yeah but how much would you be subconsciously grading to your own prediction. I'm languages and it can be very subjective on occasion.

Subconsciously grading to your own prediction is far better than actually predicting alone, especially based on loose evidence, lack of contact with the student and dubious tests.

Treppen

am_zarathustra wrote: »

So many kids would appeal. Who would correct then? I'd tell anyone I know to appeal if they weren't happy and a teacher who'd never corrected for the SEC had corrected.

If students want to appeal then let them. At least in fairness they would have that option and it would make it more fair... how is not being able to appeal a predicted grade more fair? Appeals are a good thing.

Just like the resits and appeals last year, it would be tied up with time constraint, which would deter many students. Have those students who did the resits the end of last year still gotten their results yet!!! What way did the appeals go last time around, was there an avalanche?

spurious

The SEC staff is always greatly supplemented with people from other departments and temporary appointments to deal with the exams. Many of them will have been moved about especially if working remotely.

As was the case last year, the LC could be run if the will was there and the money to pay for much smaller centres etc., but I wouldn't be holding out for anything that costs extra money.

shesty

I think that's the problem Spurious, the will. It was very clear last year there just was no political will to bother trying to do anything for schools, just leave it go til September was the easy option.



Not just for the LC. Seems we have wasted the guts of a year before realising that you know...planning....can be useful. Also in the space of about - 4 days? - we have gone from schools reopening on Feb 1st, to Feb 22nd, to March 18th, to Easter. I may "only" be a parent, but that just makes me want to cry. All that work up to Christmas gone down the drain, and a clear message coming across the last few days that the political will to push for anything to happen is just gone. Major wobbly has happened. Children shoved down the list of priorities yet again and the longer it goes on, the less the powers that be will care - other shiny new problems will pop up to take their attention, and that will be it.



It is just so depressing.:(

rainbowtrout

shesty wrote: »

I think that's the problem Spurious, the will. It was very clear last year there just was no political will to bother trying to do anything for schools, just leave it go til September was the easy option.



Not just for the LC. Seems we have wasted the guts of a year before realising that you know...planning....can be useful. Also in the space of about - 4 days? - we have gone from schools reopening on Feb 1st, to Feb 22nd, to March 18th, to Easter. I may "only" be a parent, but that just makes me want to cry. All that work up to Christmas gone down the drain, and a clear message coming across the last few days that the political will to push for anything to happen is just gone. Major wobbly has happened. Children shoved down the list of priorities yet again and the longer it goes on, the less the powers that be will care - other shiny new problems will pop up to take their attention, and that will be it.



It is just so depressing.:(

It now seems in hindsight that the plan for this academic year was 'keep the schools open at all costs, then the LC can run as normal and all of the other problems will go away'. Zero contingency was considered for second and third waves and other strains of the virus etc.


Incidentally this is a graph of the Spanish flu and the death rates in Dublin and Belfast. Not completely dissimilar from what we are experiencing now. Is there anyone in government acting as an advisor who does a bit of research for contingency plans or listens to medical advice when offered, or are they all there just to collect their expenses?

micks_address

According to Spanish flu when should this pandemic be over and everything back to normal?

rainbowtrout

micks_address wrote: »

According to Spanish flu when should this pandemic be over and everything back to normal?

Spanish flu lasted 18 months - 2 years.

micks_address

So in theory without any vaccines it will be gone by Xmas? How did they get rid of it?

rainbowtrout

micks_address wrote: »

So in theory without any vaccines it will be gone by Xmas? How did they get rid of it?

There wasn't a vaccine. It would have burned itself out. Herd immunity essentially. Spanish flu was the opposite of coronavirus in that the fatalities were mainly under 35, older people were barely affected. So two things happens there, it spreads through the community, herd immunity builds up as people are infected, people who are more susceptible to the disease die, without wishing to sound callous, the immunity of the population strengthens as a whole. It gets to a point where enough people have had the virus that there is no one new to pass it on to, or restrictions are put in place so the disease dies out because those infected can't pass it to anyone else.

Incidentally diseases with low mortality rates tend to have high infection rates and vice versa, which is why we see so many gob****es having parties etc. They know the vast majority of them will not die so they will mix and pass it on. On the other hand something like Ebola has a 60% mortality rate and is fairly debilitating so when someone contracts it (like the outbreak in West Africa 6-7 years ago), people do not go out and mix in public and people do observe social distancing because they don't want to die. So those that get infected have a high chance of dying but less of them pass it on because the virus dies with them.

It's interesting stuff when you're not sitting in the middle of it like we are now and can read about it with some level of detachment.

Treppen

rainbowtrout wrote: »

There wasn't a vaccine. It would have burned itself out. Herd immunity essentially. Spanish flu was the opposite of coronavirus in that the fatalities were mainly under 35, older people were barely affected. So two things happens there, it spreads through the community, herd immunity builds up as people are infected, people who are more susceptible to the disease die, without wishing to sound callous, the immunity of the population strengthens as a whole. It gets to a point where enough people have had the virus that there is no one new to pass it on to, or restrictions are put in place so the disease dies out because those infected can't pass it to anyone else.

Incidentally diseases with low mortality rates tend to have high infection rates and vice versa, which is why we see so many gob****es having parties etc. They know the vast majority of them will not die so they will mix and pass it on. On the other hand something like Ebola has a 60% mortality rate and is fairly debilitating so when someone contracts it (like the outbreak in West Africa 6-7 years ago), people do not go out and mix in public and people do observe social distancing because they don't want to die. So those that get infected have a high chance of dying but less of them pass it on because the virus dies with them.

It's interesting stuff when you're not sitting in the middle of it like we are now and can read about it with some level of detachment.

I wonder is there a tipping point where the R number only applies to a small cohort as it is set against vaccinated people and people who have gained immunity (asymptomatic and recovered people)... unless of course there is a deadly variant.

Schools must be saving a fortune in heating bills.

rainbowtrout

Treppen wrote: »

I wonder is there a tipping point where the R number only applies to a small cohort as it is set against vaccinated people and people who have gained immunity (asymptomatic and recovered people)... unless of course there is a deadly variant.

Schools must be saving a fortune in heating bills.

Yes there probably is. Like the same thing we see with all the other vaccinations we have. Outbreaks of large measles, mumps, etc are rare enough in Ireland because the majority of the population are vaccinated as babies/toddlers. When it drops to less than 70-80% vaccinated (don't remember the exact figure) then you start to see outbreaks, because there are a critical mass of people who don't have immunity so there are enough people in the community that they are likely to encounter someone who doesn't have immunity and pass it on.


EDIT: 80% vaccination rate for herd immunity from polio.

https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/herd-immunity-lockdowns-and-covid-19#:~:text=The%20percentage%20of%20people%20who,immunity%20is%20not%20known.



There was an interesting case in Cork in 2007 with an outbreak of TB

https://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0413/87814-tb/

What amazes me about the anti-vaxxer brigade who all think this is a way of microchipping us etc, is that they can't see that they haven't died in childhood or had some horribly debilitating disease because either they received vaccines in childhood to prevent them, or that the vast, vast majority of people around them have the vaccines, therefore giving them herd immunity. :rolleyes:

The irony being that those of a conspiracy theory frame of mind believe that we are all going to be micro-chipped and the population is going to be controlled by Bill Gates or whoever :pac:, when the reality is that if vaccine take up is poor across a population then more people will die from entirely preventable diseases.

Actually on reflection, maybe that's just Darwinism in action. Maybe we should let that happen. :pac:

rainbowtrout

Treppen wrote: »

Schools must be saving a fortune in heating bills.

Heating, electricity, cleaning products, paper, photocopying, materials for art, woodwork, science....

shesty

Spent 900eur last May on a laptop (because Bua Na Cainte only works on a Mac or PC, among other reasons), and a tablet for the various apps that kept getting sent to us.We only had phones, and work laptops and neither were suitable.

Lucky enough to be able to afford it (sort of) but I was fierce tempted to send the bill to the Dept of Education.Along with the bill for printer ink that we needed to print all the worksheets....

am_zarathustra

micks_address wrote: »

So in theory without any vaccines it will be gone by Xmas? How did they get rid of it?

Have to say my concern is not dying of coronavirus but every professional scientist I know looking at the data is seeing the massive organ damage. The flu is minimally invasive, the virus response and lung damage, thats your worry. This is a bit like pnemonia for the lungs (massive damage), mild diabetes for the kidneys, a bit of heart damage from myocarditis, clots thrown for stroke liek events.......the receptor for the virus is everywhere in the body, Ace2 is almost onmipresent. up to 30% of patients have some damage, there will be ascertainment bias currently in this but we are also not looking for it.

With the spanish flu there was also immunity in the older populations, the particular combination H1N1 hadn't been around for a long time just by bad luck and we were post war so immune systems were depressed. Also non proofreading so the virus would have mutated to a new variant eventually like the seasonal flu anyway. Flus mutate without any checks and balances.

This is a proofreading virus, it's a different ball game.

You need over 90% immunisation for effective herd immunity generally, again virus dependent but thats the aim

Bobtheman

So when do we see LCs going back to school?

History Queen

Bobtheman wrote: »

So when do we see LCs going back to school?

I think this side of midterm. But that's based more on hope than evidence admittedly .

micks_address

History Queen wrote: »

I think this side of midterm. But that's based more on hope than evidence admittedly .

From hse press conference this evening they seemed to suggest they wouldn’t be recommending the amount of movement involved in full school reopening in the next two weeks. Things are quiet on the special needs front so hopefully it means all concerned have figured out best to agree things first before announcing to the public. I’d think maybe mid next week is realistic for special needs schools. There’s hasn’t been much of a call in the media or otherwise for leaving certs return. Seems very unlikely it would be next Monday at this stage. I don’t think they will couple special needs and leaving certs this time around. My guess is potentially after mid term for leaving certs. Keep the rest at home till summer. Our daughter is in second year and they are doing fine remote learning.

Hopefully the case numbers continue to decline. I wonder is it knows the percentage of cases related to outbreaks in hospitals and residential care versus community transmission?

My guess is at least half is related to outbreaks