Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

DSN

History Queen wrote: »

A good proportion of our elected representatives in the Dáil will be getting their vaccines sooner than they would have under the other system if I've read this correctly.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/the-shape-of-the-33rd-d%C3%A1il-gender-and-age-1.4172965

Think its more that they don't want to piss off one particular group more than another! There are groups which on paper should get priority vaxed like anyone that works or lives in conditions where they cant SD & interacting with different people on a daily basis. This such a range of people & groups though who can argue they should be next. Maybe the hope is that by the time the >70s & the HCW & those with underlying illnesses & vulnerable are done there will be such an avalanche of vaccines that one age group will roll into the next quite quickly?? I live in hope!

r93kaey5p2izun

The most recent vaccine calculator had teachers being vaccinated in early September. If this results in a majority of teachers being done later, then I assume parents will be creating uproar due to continued school closures and Jennifer O'Connell and Ciara Kelly will be demanding urgent vaccination for school staff to prioritise children's education. This will also result in a far more uneven impact on children's education as schools with younger staff are forced to close classes and year groups while older staff can continue working. Dublin schools, already worst affected by the shortage of teachers, will be hit badly compared to rural schools. Certain patronages are also likely to be worse affected.

hesaidshesaid

To be honest, despite the post-Christmas ‘teachers will be vaccinated as part of the first third of the population’ promises, I don’t think anyone in education ever believed school staff would be sorted by next September.

This new version of the rollout is pure politicking. Other countries have been operating this way since the beginning. This effort smacks of the government waving a new toy to distract a crying baby.

I’m not sure how they will square the ‘schools are our first priority’ with not vaccinating staff. Hospitals are the obvious priority, they’ve undertaken to vaccinate staff there, including some non-patient facing staff. It has worked, staff shortages and infections are down. Just because Public Health isn’t collecting data on teachers getting Covid in work doesn’t mean it’s not happening. Sick teachers + no subs = closed classrooms. And don’t give me the teachers are young they’re less likely to die bull****. Long Covid is real and can have a long-lasting, sometimes life-changing impact no matter what age you are.

GazzaL

hesaidshesaid wrote: »

To be honest, despite the post-Christmas ‘teachers will be vaccinated as part of the first third of the population’ promises, I don’t think anyone in education ever believed school staff would be sorted by next September.

This new version of the rollout is pure politicking. Other countries have been operating this way since the beginning. This effort smacks of the government waving a new toy to distract a crying baby.

I’m not sure how they will square the ‘schools are our first priority’ with not vaccinating staff. Hospitals are the obvious priority, they’ve undertaken to vaccinate staff there, including some non-patient facing staff. It has worked, staff shortages and infections are down. Just because Public Health isn’t collecting data on teachers getting Covid in work doesn’t mean it’s not happening. Sick teachers + no subs = closed classrooms. And don’t give me the teachers are young they’re less likely to die bull****. Long Covid is real and can have a long-lasting, sometimes life-changing impact no matter what age you are.

Nearly the whole country is suffering from Long Covid right now, 5 solid months of level 5 since the end of December, no plan in sight, unable to legally visit family and friends, hundreds of thousands of people without a date to return to work.

hesaidshesaid

GazzaL wrote: »

Nearly the whole country is suffering from Long Covid right now, 5 solid months of level 5 since the end of December, no plan in sight, unable to legally visit family and friends, hundreds of thousands of people without a date to return to work.[/QUOTE

I see what you did there. Well done.

Murple

So group 8 is those working or living in crowded conditions or where social distancing is difficult...surely that would describe many teachers, particularly those in the junior classes of primary school where the department have accepted that social distancing is near impossible.
Group 8 is the final group that will be vaccinated as per the original schedule.

am_zarathustra

The reality is this will be rolled back on once schools start rolling closures. Very few subs available and 2 week isolation will means classes and schools will close randomly everywhere. I actually think leave the secondary teachers (I am one), the kids have masks, your not near them really but young primary or Snas doing personal care, like that's ridiculous. Plenty on hospitals with less exposure than these people and it's all day with the same students.

Urban areas are completely screwed. There are no subs in Dublin, you can advertise full time, permanent jobs and not get any applicants. All the teachers are very young in Dublin too.

Who was even complaining about this? I think carers should be done above me, I think SNAs, guards, obviously any healthcare workers should be done. Do I think Mary in her 50s working as an accountant from home should be? Not really, no

josip

Harleigh Fluffy Muscle wrote: »

The most recent vaccine calculator had teachers being vaccinated in early September. If this results in a majority of teachers being done later, then I assume parents will be creating uproar due to continued school closures and Jennifer O'Connell and Ciara Kelly will be demanding urgent vaccination for school staff to prioritise children's education. This will also result in a far more uneven impact on children's education as schools with younger staff are forced to close classes and year groups while older staff can continue working. Dublin schools, already worst affected by the shortage of teachers, will be hit badly compared to rural schools. Certain patronages are also likely to be worse affected.

I thought that vaccine calculator was rubbished a long time ago for being inaccurate and unable to include increases in supplies in its forecasts ?

r93kaey5p2izun

josip wrote: »

I thought that vaccine calculator was rubbished a long time ago for being inaccurate and unable to include increases in supplies in its forecasts ?

I doubt any of the calculators were very accurate. But education staff were to be in the first 30% to be vaccinated and that was estimated to be done by September. If it didn't account for increased supply then that would only be improved upon.

This new plan is supposed to be faster. But education is no longer prioritised. I think it is likely that will lead to increased ongoing disruption to education compared to the original plan. I'm surprised at that choice.

DSN

Wouldn't teachers sna crèche workers & guards the like some under group 9 ' working in crowded settings' ? So least they get done in parallel with the 55-64 cohort? That calc is rubbish is only based on the current run rate of vaccines.

r93kaey5p2izun

DSN wrote: »

Wouldn't teachers sna crèche workers & guards the like some under group 9 ' working in crowded settings' ? So least they get done in parallel with the 55-64 cohort? That calc is rubbish is only based on the current run rate of vaccines.

I think that's unlikely given this category always existed as separate to, and ahead of, education staff.

am_zarathustra

It's strange given the localized nature of schools they couldn't be done quickly. There are a around 750 secondarys, surely mobile units could be organized. Everyone is on site anyway.

Smells like there are more scandals in the wings and the logistics to prevent them going forward are lacking so a blunt instrumental approach is being taken

is_that_so

Teachers unions, unsurprisingly, have questions on the new vaccination plan.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0331/1207115-ireland-education/

Leftwaffe

They’ll roll back on this for teachers and gardai is my bet. They literally can’t get anything right, they need to make a horrendous error first before being corrected. Utterly useless government.

History Queen

I hope they row back on it for carers, childcare workers, primary school staff, special school/class staff, SNAs and any others working in a caring capacity. I'm mainstream secondary. I can wait.

Leftwaffe

History Queen wrote: »

I hope they row back on it for carers, childcare workers, primary school staff, special school/class staff, SNAs and any others working in a caring capacity. I'm mainstream secondary. I can wait.

Yeah that’s more accurate. I’d hope so yoo

History Queen

History Queen wrote: »

I hope they row back on it for carers, childcare workers, primary school staff, special school/class staff, SNAs and any others working in a caring capacity. I'm mainstream secondary. I can wait.

Why not food processing workers, factory workers, supermarket staff etc etc etc

jimmytwotimes 2013

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why not food processing workers, factory workers, supermarket staff etc etc etc

Agree, any workers who can't work remotely and where SD is impossible should be next in line after vulnerable are vaccinated.

namloc1980

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Agree, any workers who can't work remotely and where SD is impossible should be next in line after vulnerable are vaccinated.

Now the rollout is just much more complex and admin heavy. They're already having issues identifying the medically vulnerable, how do you propose they identify one type of worker over another?

History Queen

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why not food processing workers, factory workers, supermarket staff etc etc etc

They have mitigating measures for spread in factories such as regular testing which the ones I've listed don't have. Supermarket staff and factory workers are not in close proximity without masks/screens. They are also not dealing with care needs/bodily fluids.

Edit:i tried to include people most at risk maybe I've missed some groups if so I apologise. I was talking in termsof people I would like to see being vaccinated ahead of the changes proposed.

is_that_so

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Agree, any workers who can't work remotely and where SD is impossible should be next in line after vulnerable are vaccinated.

That approach just produces a hierarchy of entitlement. The new version is easier to run and it's easier to track what age groups have been done.

jimmytwotimes 2013

namloc1980 wrote: »

Now the rollout is just much more complex and admin heavy. They're already having issues identifying the medically vulnerable, how do you propose they identify one type of worker over another?

Names proceed by employer or overseeing councils etc. Not difficult.

Teaching Council could provide list of teachers in seconds for example. They could also do something useful for the first time since it's inception. Win win

jimmytwotimes 2013

is_that_so wrote: »

That approach just produces a hierarchy of entitlement. The new version is easier to run and it's easier to track what age groups have been done.

Hierarchy of potential spread based on number of contacts.

History Queen

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Names proceed by employer or overseeing councils etc. Not difficult.

Teaching Council could provide list of teachers in seconds for example. They could also do something useful for the first time since it's inception. Win win

Ah now... you know how the Teaching Council feel about being useful! :pac:

is_that_so

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Hierarchy of potential spread based on number of contacts.

We can't keep hiding behind potential risks. If you've survived this far without COVID you know what to do. If there were no vaccines you'd still be doing it.

namloc1980

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Names proceed by employer or overseeing councils etc. Not difficult.

Teaching Council could provide list of teachers in seconds for example. They could also do something useful for the first time since it's inception. Win win

You want every employer and lobby group in the country to produce a list of names for vaccination? Can you not see what an admin headache that is? And how do they rank those names? Who goes at number 1 versus number 1,000. What about supermarket workers or those in critical factory settings like food processing or pharmaceuticals etc?

jimmytwotimes 2013

namloc1980 wrote: »

You want every employer and lobby group in the country to produce a list of names for vaccination? Can you not see what an admin headache that is? And how do they rank those names? Who goes at number 1 versus number 1,000. What about supermarket workers or those in critical factory settings like food processing or pharmaceuticals etc?

Already said groups who can't social distance at work should be up next after vulnerable.

Vaccinating somebody working from home before people working on site and engaging with high numbers of people in close quarters makes zero sense.

Many posters on here often accuse others of being close-minded to possibilities when it came to keeping schools open. Now all of a sudden, an employer can't compile an alphabetical list of their workers for vaccination.

Funny, oppositional posting for the sake of it.

is_that_so

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Already said groups who can't social distance at work should be up next after vulnerable.

Vaccinating somebody working from home before people working on site and engaging with high numbers of people in close quarters makes zero sense.

Many posters on here often accuse others of being close-minded to possibilities when it came to keeping schools open. Now all of a sudden, an employer can't compile an alphabetical list of their workers for vaccination.

Funny, oppositional posting for the sake of it.

There is a danger of people losing sight of what's going on here, mass vaccination of the public, not just teachers, HCWs or the vulnerable. The original groups are medically and ethically sound but as we can already see with group 4 it'll be quite a headache to work on with the old system. The new system is the same as everywhere else and easier to manage by age group. At the speed they are claiming we'll do it, being done in May or June should not matter.

r93kaey5p2izun

is_that_so wrote: »

There is a danger of people losing sight of what's going on here, mass vaccination of the public, not just teachers, HCWs or the vulnerable. The original groups are medically and ethically sound but as we can already see with group 4 it'll be quite a headache to work on with the old system. The new system is the same as everywhere else and easier to manage by age group. At the speed they are claiming we'll do it, being done in May or June should not matter.

Where is this claim about such speed? He said 7 more weeks to finish just the over 70s. Are you saying an official claim has been made that all adults will be vaccinated by June 2021?? I'd love to read that, thank you.

But this is not the same as "everywhere else" - why would you claim that when workers such as teachers have been vaccinated ahead of other groups in many countries. Why be dishonest?

namloc1980

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Already said groups who can't social distance at work should be up next after vulnerable.

Vaccinating somebody working from home before people working on site and engaging with high numbers of people in close quarters makes zero sense.

Many posters on here often accuse others of being close-minded to possibilities when it came to keeping schools open. Now all of a sudden, an employer can't compile an alphabetical list of their workers for vaccination.

Funny, oppositional posting for the sake of it.

So now we're in alphabetical order. The 55 year old teacher who is at higher risk, but their name is Walsh, is at the bottom of the list while the 25 year old teacher whose name is Adams is at the top of the list even though their risk of serious illness or death is significantly lower. How is that fairer or better than the age based approach for all?