Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

Responder XY

SAMTALK wrote: »

But what about the staff ?


Yes schools need to re open but with the new variants teachers / SNA's etc need to be protected as well

What about Nurses? they are essential to and are going about their job in a difficult circumstance nonetheless.

Teachers are essential - it's difficult but every other profession in that boat are getting on with it as best they can. 

Loafing Oaf

Responder XY wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/risk-school-the-thought-terrified-me-how-could-norma-foley-even-consider-it-1.4456425

These type of stories make me so mad. Young people who want to do the right thing and are being guilt tripped into damaging their own lives due to the wider inadequacies of our system.

Did you read the article? The author was terrified of returning to school because she lives with someone in a high-risk category. You think this concern is a product of 'guilt-tripping'?

Mrsmum

Responder XY wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/risk-school-the-thought-terrified-me-how-could-norma-foley-even-consider-it-1.4456425

These type of stories make me so mad. Young people who want to do the right thing and are being guilt tripped into damaging their own lives due to the wider inadequacies of our system. This was forgivable back in March/April when we hadn't time to prepare. It isn't now.

Wider society and government has an absolute responsibility to our children and young people to ensure that education continues and to provide reassurance to young people that it's OK for their needs to be prioritised. 

Ultimately as kids are very unlikely to be harmed by Covid, but very likely to be harmed by interrupting their education, it needs to be recognised that even if covid isn't fully under control Children and young people need to be prioritised and Schools open. Government and teachers are setting such a poor example here by putting the needs of others ahead of children.

Anyone who know my posts knows that I am a huge advocate for real school over remote. Imo the school building is the best defence against all sorts of societal challenges and inequities with regard to children's education. But even I would not put children, never mind staff, back in schools as they are right now. We must wait till its safer imo.

Baggly

khalessi wrote: »

Oh you are trolling, it might be politely put, but you have recieved answers and keep digging away.

Mod

Take a week off from this thread.

Responder XY

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Did you read the article? The author was terrified of returning to school because she lives with someone in a high-risk category. You think this concern is a product of 'guilt-tripping'?

yes, because she thinks it's her responsibility. It shouldn't be. A 17 year old shouldn't have to consider anything exact focusing on completion of their education. Everything else should move around them to allow that to happen. That includes the state, teachers, parents, relatives and so on making sacrifices and providing the environment to allow education to continue. If a harm is unavoidable, that harm should not be to children and their education.

Lillyfae

Responder XY wrote: »

yes, because she thinks it's her responsibility. It shouldn't be. A 17 year old shouldn't have to consider anything exact focusing on completion of their education. Everything else should move around them to allow that to happen. That includes the state, teachers, parents, relatives and so on making sacrifices and providing the environment to allow education to continue. If a harm is unavoidable, that harm should not be to children and their education.

I agree with that. Their stress should be minimized as much as it can be, the Leaving Cert is stressful enough. It's just awful how this has impacted young people so much.

Loafing Oaf

Responder XY wrote: »

yes, because she thinks it's her responsibility. It shouldn't be. A 17 year old shouldn't have to consider anything exact focusing on completion of their education. Everything else should move around them to allow that to happen. That includes the state, teachers, parents, relatives and so on making sacrifices and providing the environment to allow education to continue. If a harm is unavoidable, that harm should not be to children and their education.

Okay let's speculate that the high-risk individual in question is a grandparent with hypertension. You're saying if it's a choice between that grandparent not catching covid and dying and her completing her Leaving Cert on schedule, she should opt for the latter?

Necro

Mod:

Thread Cleaned up and off topic posts removed. Can we discuss the topic please - if you're not going to continue contributing in the thread simply stop posting rather than derailing the thread with 'mic drop' style posts. Report posts you have an issue with, calling people trolls on thread is just going to earn you a sanction, as has already been seen.

Dravokivich

Responder XY wrote: »

What about Nurses? they are essential to and are going about their job in a difficult circumstance nonetheless.

Teachers are essential - it's difficult but every other profession in that boat are getting on with it as best they can. 

While education is important, it is neither a life nor a death situation. It can be nudged back and caught up on.

Responder XY wrote: »

yes, because she thinks it's her responsibility. It shouldn't be. A 17 year old shouldn't have to consider anything exact focusing on completion of their education. Everything else should move around them to allow that to happen. That includes the state, teachers, parents, relatives and so on making sacrifices and providing the environment to allow education to continue. If a harm is unavoidable, that harm should not be to children and their education.

You're asking for an awful lot to happen there. A lot of people are in circumstances they can't control. This kid's, is such a circumstance. How does it get changed? We just say, so let it be written, so let it be done. Now that's sorted it. These are extreme times we are in. Focus should be on how we achieve our objectives with minimal physical interaction. Education is a rather difficult one to do remotely, as it's so passive. I don't think anyone disagree's that how it's been run is unaccpetable. But the difficultly in setting it up can't go ignored. It's odd to see you so confidently expecting the Government, DES, Schools, Teachers, Parents, etc to completely revolutionise this in a very short period of time.

Murple

Responder XY wrote: »

yes, because she thinks it's her responsibility. It shouldn't be. A 17 year old shouldn't have to consider anything exact focusing on completion of their education. Everything else should move around them to allow that to happen. That includes the state, teachers, parents, relatives and so on making sacrifices and providing the environment to allow education to continue. If a harm is unavoidable, that harm should not be to children and their education.

Actually it is her responsibility. It’s everyone’s responsibility and she knows it. If only everyone had the cop on and awareness of the bigger picture that this young woman has, we wouldn’t be in this situation now. Even children need to be helped understand that life can’t go on as normal at the moment though to be honest, I’ve found the children to be far more accepting of that and less inclined to fight it. I’ve heard many in school say how it’s sad they can’t do something but that everyone has to be careful now. They understand the need for everyone to help out.
As she rightly pointed out, NPHET have stated that schools are safe environments when community transmission is low. Community transmission is through the roof. When everyone plays their part and community transmission is at a manageable level, schools can reopen safely. And everyone playing their part includes children and teens limiting their contacts and socialising.

SAMTALK

Responder XY wrote: »

What about Nurses? they are essential to and are going about their job in a difficult circumstance nonetheless.

Teachers are essential - it's difficult but every other profession in that boat are getting on with it as best they can. 

Before Christmas I was all for the schools opening but things have changed since.

the new variants that spread much quicker and easier has to be taken into account.
TBF you cannot compare nurses and teachers. Teachers are in no way as essential as nurses and it's not like they have abandoned teaching altogether.
online teaching / activities are going ahead ( I know not all can access )


I don't normal side with teachers but things have changed in the last few weeks

Crocodile Booze

Responder XY wrote: »

yes, because she thinks it's her responsibility. It shouldn't be. A 17 year old shouldn't have to consider anything exact focusing on completion of their education. Everything else should move around them to allow that to happen. That includes the state, teachers, parents, relatives and so on making sacrifices and providing the environment to allow education to continue. If a harm is unavoidable, that harm should not be to children and their education.

So you think the LC is more important than people's lives and health? Hmm?

Tell that to the families of the thousands of dead or the people in hospital.

What a stupid perspective that is. Think about it.

MerlinSouthDub

Schools and classes for children with additional needs to reopen next week:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/schools-and-classes-for-children-with-additional-needs-set-to-reopen-next-thursday-1.4458286

Responder XY

Murple wrote: »

Even children need to be helped understand that life can’t go on as normal at the moment though to be honest, I’ve found the children to be far more accepting of that and less inclined to fight it. I’ve heard many in school say how it’s sad they can’t do something but that everyone has to be careful now. They understand the need for everyone to help out.

Yes, everyone needs to do their part. That means no playdates, birthday parties, teenage discos, sports or other club type activities. etc... Kids and young people are still doing their part and can learn how to take responsibility. Some things (education being one) are just more important again.

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Okay let's speculate that the high-risk individual in question is a grandparent with hypertension. You're saying if it's a choice between that grandparent not catching covid and dying and her completing her Leaving Cert on schedule, she should opt for the latter?

That's not a choice a 17 year old should be making. We've had months and months as a society knowing about this! Why on earth is someone with that risk profile still in a scenario where they can be harmed so much? Where the only option that works in the short term is to halt an education (for the second time!) How as a society have we allowed that to happen? 
Don't get me wrong, I'm not having a go at the arthur of that piece individually, I appreciate that in a single family that they may not have the means to do anything else - it's not like a seperate granny flat could be built or a separate carer (if needed) provided. But as a society we should have made full sure that this situation could not have happened again and it's deeply shameful that we have not and that we've allowed a scenario where kids' education is being halted for a harm that is very very unlikely to damage them.

CapriciousOne

MerlinSouthDub wrote: »

Schools and classes for children with additional needs to reopen next week:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/schools-and-classes-for-children-with-additional-needs-set-to-reopen-next-thursday-1.4458286

Not a whole lot of information there beyond -

“phased resumption” of school for children with additional needs if a range of Covid-19 measures are taken to underpin the safety of students and staff.

jrosen

We can’t have a suit all solution though. We have to run with a suit the majority.
Schools are underfunded, classes too full, additional needs not being met and that’s all pre covid. There will never be a case where each and every persons individual needs are met.

It’s her leaving cert and I’ve no doubt anxieties are on the rise for many students but solutions have to be found both outside the home and inside the home.

SusanC10

MerlinSouthDub wrote: »

Schools and classes for children with additional needs to reopen next week:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/schools-and-classes-for-children-with-additional-needs-set-to-reopen-next-thursday-1.4458286

Does that mean that those Schools and classes will reopen only *if* those specified list of demands are met ?

St.Spodo

Responder XY wrote: »

Yes, everyone needs to do their part. That means no playdates, birthday parties, teenage discos, sports or other club type activities. etc... Kids and young people are still doing their part and can learn how to take responsibility. Some things (education being one) are just more important again.



That's not a choice a 17 year old should be making. We've had months and months as a society knowing about this! Why on earth is someone with that risk profile still in a scenario where they can be harmed so much? Where the only option that works in the short term is to halt an education (for the second time!) How as a society have we allowed that to happen? 
Don't get me wrong, I'm not having a go at the arthur of that piece individually, I appreciate that in a single family that they may not have the means to do anything else - it's not like a seperate granny flat could be built or a separate carer (if needed) provided. But as a society we should have made full sure that this situation could not have happened again and it's deeply shameful that we have not and that we've allowed a scenario where kids' education is being halted for a harm that is very very unlikely to damage them.

There are 1.5 million people in high risk categories for covid in Ireland. Many of them live with school-going children and indeed plenty are school-going children. What could we possibly have done to change that scenario in the last few months?

CapriciousOne

Andy Pike was just on radio saying it's a limited (50%), staggered re-opening, with a number of pre-requisites to be met first. This should be communicated clearly.

DraftDodger

SusanC10 wrote: »

Does that mean that those Schools and classes will reopen only *if* those specified list of demands are met ?

I'd hope it meant teachers, bus drivers, SNA's etc.. being vaccinated but im guessing it will mean the department will thrown the schools an extra few masks and a bottle of hand sanitizer.

SAMTALK

DraftDodger wrote: »

I'd hope it meant teachers, bus drivers, SNA's etc.. being vaccinated but im guessing it will mean the department will thrown the schools an extra few masks and a bottle of hand sanitizer.

Anything that needs to be open ASAP has to be near the top for vaccinations.

Pen pushers in the HSE getting priority over people who work closely with other people is not good enough.
They cannot have it both ways, yes open for special needs but teachers / SNA's get the vaccine. This is a very close contact profession, a lot of children need help with personal hygiene etc

Mrsmum

Regarding the girl in the newspaper article, her situation, ie at risk relative, is the reality in many homes so in these times of sky high numbers and hospitals full we must take account of that and for that reason remote learning is imo the right thing to do.
However I would add that the other side of her situation is excellent - she has her own device, her own room to work in and has the personal attributes to work away well by herself. So she is highly suited to remote learning. Not the case for many other LC students. They may have no vulnerable relatives but homes and facilities not conducive to bringing forth the best of their abilities, in fact the opposite. They must be accounted for too in the competition that is the LC. I feel maybe libraries could be utilised as learning hubs. My local library is huge, gorgeous place for a very small number of kids to study.

the kelt

So it seems schools may open next thursday for special needs kids etc following consultation with the various stakeholders if certain requirements in regards to safety of staff and students can be complied with.

Isnt it amazing what can be done when you actually consult with the parties involved rather than try to underhandedly bundle your own political promises through without consulting any of the parties involved in making sure your promises can be met and then just cowardly hide behind a statement no one was asking whilst leaving teachers hung out to dry bearing the brunt of the criticism.

antgal23

Opening is at the discretion of the principals

'Schools and some classes catering for children with physical and intellectual disabilities could reopen in a week's time.

After talks with trade union representatives this morning, Minister for Education Norma Foley said that it is a "shared ambition" of both her's and the Irish National Teachers' Organisation (INTO) and Fórsa trade union that special schools open again for students on 21 January, as well as special classes for children with disabilities in primary schools.

As part of a possible school reopening next Thursday, there will "flexibility" to cater for disadvantaged students.

Schools will have discretion to bring children back to classrooms if they deem it necessary.'

BonsaiKitten

I see AsIAm and company got their way. I wouldn't mind as such, it's an important issue
but it galls me that they think it's ok for teachers to be working in close contact with kids while many of these advocacy groups have withdrawn their in-person services due to Covid. Smacks of one rule for me and not for thee.

Mrs OBumble

Responder XY wrote: »

yes, because she thinks it's her responsibility. It shouldn't be. A 17 year old shouldn't have to consider anything exact focusing on completion of their education. Everything else should move around them to allow that to happen. That includes the state, teachers, parents, relatives and so on making sacrifices and providing the environment to allow education to continue. If a harm is unavoidable, that harm should not be to children and their education.

Leaving Cert has not been the "completion" of anyone's education for a very long time.

It's a route into 3rd level education.

But there are others. And other options again.

Tpcl20

Responder XY wrote: »

yes, because she thinks it's her responsibility. It shouldn't be. A 17 year old shouldn't have to consider anything exact focusing on completion of their education. Everything else should move around them to allow that to happen. That includes the state, teachers, parents, relatives and so on making sacrifices and providing the environment to allow education to continue. If a harm is unavoidable, that harm should not be to children and their education.

So the relative should move out of the house, is that what you're saying?

Where the hell will we put all these high-risk people???

It's a once-in-a-lifetime (hopefully) pandemic. The system of education we have is absolutely irrelevant to this virus. I know the "by hook or crook" attitude is pervasive among politicians because it's just simply a huge fustercluck to sort out an alternative exam arrangement. But that is a bureaucratic perspective and it will literally cost lives, like the lives of people (even young people) who are high risk.

What the hell kind of an education requires you to watch a relative get sick and die in order to succeed at it.

Treppen

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

I see AsIAm and company got their way. I wouldn't mind as such, it's an important issue
but it galls me that they think it's ok for teachers to be working in close contact with kids while many of these advocacy groups have withdrawn their in-person services due to Covid. Smacks of one rule for me and not for thee.

AsIaAm has shown little regard for the teaching profession in the past threatening them with mass litigation supported by AsIAm.

SusanC10

Does anyone know what in reality this announcement means for Kids with Special Needs ?

Is it up to each individual Principal?
Do the criteria outlined in the IT article all need to be fulfilled?

What if a Parent would prefer not to send their child back into the school building due to either the child themselves or a family member being medically vulnerable?
What if a Teacher or SNA or Bus Driver has a vulnerable family member ?

Just trying to understand it all really.

CapriciousOne

SusanC10 wrote: »

Does anyone know what in reality this announcement means for Kids with Special Needs ?

Is it up to each individual Principal?
Do the criteria outlined in the IT article all need to be fulfilled?

What if a Parent would prefer not to send their child back into the school building due to either the child themselves or a family member being medically vulnerable?
What if a Teacher or SNA or Bus Driver has a vulnerable family member ?

Just trying to understand it all really.

I don't think anybody knows really. Nothing has been communicated clearly, but I guess that doesn't matter as long as Norma gets her win/to broadcast her victory TikTok.