Yeah, that definitely sounds like an environment conducive to getting the best out of those players.
English and French clubs would be the biggest fans of this proposal.
I disagree that the IRFU does not have the power to decide where young players go. They are the employer after all. If they wanted they could simply make a list at the start of each season and divvy young/academy players up among provinces, offer said players those contracts and that would be that. Players could choose to go abroad, return to clubs as amateurs or accept the contract on offer. The provinces would be in no position to offer other contracts to players as they are controlled by the union. It would be unpopular but the argument that it is unworkable does not hold up.
There is a rumour on the leinster fan site that frawley has re-signed fwiw.
Freddie Burns? He seems a decent option.
Yeah - played for USA as recently as last year, and is currently 33. He'd be 35 by the time he was Irish eligible and was never good enough to begin with.
McGinty is NIQ though, might as well bring in someone like Lima Sopoaga.
I wonder would Munster consider AJ McGinty as a replacement for Joey Carbery. I doubt very highly they would go the controversial route and bring in Paddy Jackson. Both players are out of contract next year.
I can see them wanting to keep a NIQ spot open for a hooker.
You're right there. It's an extra appeal to play for you grew up supporting and thinking about and is another way for us to compete against French clubs you pay more money. Second option is going to another province which isn't as good but sure they'e your cousins.
I'm just floating the idea of it happening in regards to Aungier. I am fairly confident that Leinster won't be allowed to poach any players from the provinces for a while after the Snyman deal.
Worst deal ever for Connacht. In this scenario, if Deeny works out does he go back to Leinster as well?
It really handicaps connacht if the minute they do find a diamond from leinster that they go back. They already lost their probably best player ever to Leinster.
I would love deegan. Would be a great addition and someone for McNabney to learn from.
Not sure if Munster would want Tector. He’s too close to Butler in experience.
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I'm not sure Connacht would want Ruddock at the moment. Maybe if Hurley-Langton or Sean Jansen are moving on, but I think they'd prefer to offer one of them a higher paying contract rather than taking Ruddock for the last year or two of is career. And in terms of a mentor for Prendergast, Ruddock wears John Muldoon pajamas.
Max Deegan - to Ulster, Ewers, Deegan and Timoney would be a really powerful trio.
Rhys Ruddock to Connacht - They could really use his leadership and would be a great mentor to Prendergast
Charlie Tector- Munster, they need depth and he could provide some depth
Ed Byrne- Connacht - They are fairly set a tighthead but could use another loose.
Lee Barron or John McKee - To stay at Leinster- with Kellehers injury history and Sheehan playing lots of minutes, alot of hookers are required.
Brian Deeny - Connacht - He would add decent depth to Connacht
Ben Murphy and Cormac Foley - Stay at Leinster for two more years then one moves on and the other along with Fintan Gunne fight for the 9 jersey.
Leinster would get back Jack Aungier. Connacht have Finley Bealham and Sam Illo at tighthead. Yes Aungier is having a good season and is getting good game time and I would expect uproar in Leinster getting him but he was a Leinster player first and Leinster are deficient at Tighthead and him coming back would be massively helpful to Leinster and it would avoid Leinster using a NIQ designation on a tighthead.
I know it comes up repeatedly, but a draft it never going to happen and I am highly sceptical it would work even if tried. As soon as players start refusing to move or trying to negotiate out of it - which would happen almost immediately - then the whole thing falls apart. You have to remember these are generally not players under contract.
Leinster have a better track record of playing young players than the other provinces too - once again, it's improved slightly in recent years at Munster, but there are plenty of examples here.
Sam Prendergast has already played more than 2x the minutes for Leinster than Tony Butler has in Munster, despite the ostensibly massive queue in Leinster and the absolute dearth of healthy, alternate options in Munster.
A guy like Matthew Devine, one of the star players on his Irish U20 team, still hasn't even featured for Connacht, while a whole host of guys from his vintage have played multiple times (and Fintan Gunne, the scrum half from the Irish U20s a year later has already made his Leinster debut).
all I'm suggesting is that it would be better for a playing population for players to be playing regularly rather than dying on the vine. For example Charlie Tector, he was a good prospect at u20's. You can't honestly say that he's better off in Leinster than if he was playing more regularly at Connacht or Ulster.
There's nothing to suggest he'd have got any more playing time than the 8 caps he's already gotten for Leinster if he'd gone anywhere else. His halfback partner on his Irish U20s side, and probably one of the best prospects in that squad, Matthew Devine, still hasn't made his debut for Connacht. His understudy on that side, Tony Butler, has played 6 times for Munster over the same period.
Sorry but to be able to get the concentration of wealth and interest in one sport in a tiny area is unique.
This is nonsense btw - there are concentrated pockets of wealth in virtually every major rugby playing nation on Earth (possibly exception for Wales) and the Pacific Isles obviously.
Sorry but to be able to get the concentration of wealth and interest in one sport in a tiny area is unique. If it was easy to do there would be similar set ups around the world but there isn't.
There is nothing remotely not replicable about Leinster's set up - describing it as the "most envious set of circumstances in the world" is balderdash.
They're located in a relatively large city by global standards, where there are a handful of private schools where rugby is the #1 sport and is well funded in those schools. That's hardly some sort of impossible barrier to entry.
You're implying like there's some sort of obstacle at the moment stopping all the other provinces from attempting to sign Leinster's best prospects as it is. There isn't. Sam Illo is a good example of a guy who Connacht offered a full contract to to lure him there ahead of a Leinster academy contract.
What you're proposing is stopping Leinster from signing players they want to sign who also want to sign for them. That's nonsensical.
I don't dispute Munster's production has improved, and it's come with some improvements in personnel, funding and facilities. That highlights how there isn't a need to permanently change up the system.
Leinster have probably the most envious set of circumstances in the world when it comes to player development. They are based in the highest playing population surrounding them, as well as a set of very well funded schools rugby programs which essentially function as a few elite pre academy for them.
To 'reward' the good fee paying parents of South county Dublin. I'd suggest that each province gets 2 first refusals on their own academy with the rest going into the general pool. Let's not pretend that Leinster have no deficiencies either in recent years that would have jumped at the change to get Doak or an Edogbo to fix some of their ongoing issues.
Ulster and Munster have gotten their academies to much better shape in recent years. If you look at the team that finished the URC final this year a large part of them were Munster academy products.
Just two further points, the other provinces have been happy to take some of Leinster's failures due to the way the IRFU run contracting. The simple truth is that it's much easier to get approval for an IQ provincial transfer than the player you might like to get from abroad. It won't weaken Leinster losing depth chart guys, the main aim of the IRFU strategy is for depth at Ireland level. Anything that enhances that will be encouraged
Maybe it is, but it doesn't make it incorrect.
The only one I'd give a pass to is Connacht, where they still just don't really have the numbers.
Munster's production has improved significantly in recent years, but that just really highlights how poor it was for effectively the decade before it. Ulster have strong rugby playing areas and lots of talent, they've struggled converting it though.
The notion that these guys just show up out of school as ready made rugby pros is way overblown. Leinster may have the biggest and best funnel of the four provinces without a doubt, but they've also done the best job of converting good prospects into good players for the last decade plus as well.
It's a bit easy to repeatedly excoriate the other three provinces for their failure to produce players from the comfortable position Leinster find themselves in, most of which has little to do with the actions of the provincial rugby team itself.
Irish rugby as a whole will always be reliant on the Leinster private schools system as long as the sport remains a niche activity based around schools and not clubs. And that's pretty much always been the case everywhere except France and, for a time, Wales.
Other provinces have consistently been interested in what you incorrectly characterise as "Leinster failures" - not being good enough to start at Leinster has never meant you're not good enough to start for any of the other three.
The draft system is a complete nonsense, it weakens Leinster, and rewards the other three provinces for their own historic failures in player production, thus further building a reliance on the Leinster schools system.
really provinces aren't going to be interested Leinster failures. ( I know that's a bit harsh but they wouldn't be moving because they had too much game time)
Maybe something like a draft style where every province gets to select 2/3 from their academy and then the rest go into a draft between the provinces?
I've no doubt the moves are encouraged and approaches are made but it's very hard to force people to move. If Leinster want to keep a player and make an offer, another province and make their offer too with the added incentive of increased playing time and argue for an improved pathway to test selection.
But the player might be quite content where they are. They've lives set up, families, friends and are playing for their home team. There's a big draw on that. Guys like Dan Sheehan were approached for moves before they hit the big time but were extremely promising players. They back themselves to succeed and, when young guys see Dan Sheehan (who didn't even become first choice until last season) make a call that works out incredibly well, they're encouraged to stay too.
We've someone like Deegan who has been capped a couple of times when 3rd choice in Leinster. Then you've Timoney who has been playing consistently for Ulster and going really well. He has three caps. I'm not sure Deegan is going to look at that and think moving is the right call for him.
Personally, I'd be disappointed to see it but, in reality, I think the following guys should be encouraged to leave Leinster for better distribution of resources around the provinces:
Old thread but still relevant.
Munster and ulster need 10,s.
Ulster ideally another backrow.
Surely as leinster have surpluses in these positions the powers at the top should encourage moves.
thomond2006 wrote: » Eh, players should do what's best for themselves. They're no different to anyone who's an employee.
Tim Robbins wrote: » Teams get players funded from the IRFU, they are greatly helped from the IRFU who entice players to stay in Ireland - so all of them need to also think in terms of what is best for Ireland and not just them.
Tim Robbins wrote: » with the injury rate of the back row, you will get game time if you are in the top 3 of 6, 7 or 8. But in some cases, Leinster have 4 or 5 who are decent standard so you are right, for their sake and Ireland sake some should go.
TRC10 wrote: » I can definitely see one of leinster opensides going south, most likely Connors or Penny. I would have said one of the 10s should leave a few months ago but it looks like Frawley is being developed as a 12 (quite successfully) and Sextons body is on the way out. So that just leaves the 2 Byrnes and Hawkshaw which is fine.
thomond2006 wrote: » I was responding to your specific suggestion of an option to go back to their original province. Teams aren't going to invest gametime/opportunities into a young player who they believe will almost certainly up and leave after a year.
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