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Formula 1 2021 - General Discussion Thread (Read 1st post rules)

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,099 ✭✭✭✭ flazio


    Marshals were still on track clearing the crash. You have to wait until they report All Clear before you decide what to do with the safety car. Plus at that stage you'll have cars 2 laps behind who were lapped by cars 1 lap behind.....It's Just a big mess to be honest and if Carlos could have caught 4th in the championship (he couldn't BTW) by pushing for the win or second you can be sure that Ferrari would be doing what Mercedes-Benz are doing now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,134 ✭✭✭ Harika


    I don't think Mercedes would have agreed in this particular race to go green again.

    Overall it needs a regulation like other series have it that ensures green light racing at the end. Might it be red flagging or extending the race distance.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,946 ✭✭✭ Hijpo


    But that was the agreement, they want to renege on it now that it didn't go their way?



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,210 ✭✭✭ Jordan 199


    It was great to see another winner in the sport this year with Ocon.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,424 ✭✭✭✭ PopePalpatine


    They have a precedent for doing this already. Not that that matters to Masi.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,324 ✭✭✭ recyclebin


    There is technically no reason why they couldn't rejig the order under safety car instead of having to unlap drivers. The reason they don't do it is because the current rules and timing software don't allow for it.

    There have been many instances in past where safety car has stayed out way too long after the track being clear to let people unlap and catch up to tail.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,879 ✭✭✭✭ El_Duderino 09


    That's right. And they added 2 new winners last year in Gasley and Perez. Great to see new winners but it would be even better to have a genuinely competitive grid where lots of drivers could beat all the others. The Ocon, Perez and Gasley wins all needed the big teams to be knocked out for one reason or another.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,796 ✭✭✭ Frank Bullitt




  • Registered Users Posts: 17,879 ✭✭✭✭ El_Duderino 09


    Yeah I was right in some elements and still totally wrong about the winner as Max won.

    Lewis had the race pace, max left it to Lewis to avoid the collision at turn 1. Lewis getting track position wasn't race over though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 396 ✭✭ barryribs


    There is a clear difference between what happened on the first lap and what happened in the last lap. One was a perfectly valid overtaking maneuver where the defending driver simply drove off track to keep position. The other was a selective application of rules to a certain number of cars based on their position on the track.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 197 ✭✭ fe1ki5


    Whether you wanted Max to win or Lewis to win it is totally irrelevant.

    That last lap race decision was a joke and made a complete mockery of the season and the sport as a whole.

    FIA have sold out to the netflix audience.

    I have no issue with Max winning, but it is a pity it happened like that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭ quokula


    What were they supposed to do though? Throw away all precedent of how safety cars work just to ensure Hamilton was allowed to win?

    A lot of people seem to have no experience of F1. Check out this video of Alonso's reaction on the radio to the initial announcement that they weren't going to let lapped cars past in order to help out Mercedes. This is a neutral third party who also happens to be arguably the most knowledgeable and highly respected F1 driver on the planet:

    He's utterly incredulous at the idea the FIA would fix the race for Mercedes by not following the normal procedures of letting the lapped cars pass and getting the race going again. Fortunately they saw sense and eventually applied the correct rules. Due to being slow to do so there wasn't enough time to let all lapped cars through, but this was the lesser of two evils in the end.

    Masi was put in a tough situation - he could submit to Toto's lobbying, ignore normal procedures, and guarantee a Hamilton victory, or he could follow the proper procedures, let them actually race without interference, and face the onslaught of the Mercedes PR machine, the British media and a large cohort of ignorant fans who aren't familiar with the rules and procedures of F1.



  • Registered Users Posts: 197 ✭✭ fe1ki5


    Alonso is not neutral 🤣 Laughable to say as much given his history with Hamilton and his pre-race comments of wanting Max to win.

    They literally did throw away all precedents of how a safety car works... correct rules are to allow ALL lapped cars passed. ALL. How does it make sense to allow SOME of the lapped cars passed? Conveniently only the ones between Max and Lewis.

    Surely your very comment there alludes to something not quite right... "There wasn't enough time to allow ALL the lapped cars by"... so instead of finishing the race behind a safety car - for a shot of glory, Masi allows just some of the cars to go by, reversing on his own decision... it's embarrassing and would never have happened before the Netflix crowd came along.



  • Registered Users Posts: 396 ✭✭ barryribs


    "a large cohort of ignorant fans who aren't familiar with the rules and procedures of F1."

    Laughable comment, when the rules and procedures are over ridden ad hoc by the race director and the justification of it is - Race Director says so.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,879 ✭✭✭✭ El_Duderino 09


    He's utterly incredulous at the idea the FIA would fix the race for Mercedes by not following the normal procedures of letting the lapped cars pass and getting the race going again. Fortunately they saw sense and eventually applied the correct rules. Due to being slow to do so there wasn't enough time to let all lapped cars through, but this was the lesser of two evils in the end.

    Is it normal that they would only allow the cars between Max and Lewis to unlap themselves to allow Max and Lewis to fight?

    I know it's been established that the rules allow some cars to unlap themselves but is there precedent for limiting it to the cars between the front runners only to facilitate them racing and nobody else?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭ quokula


    This has been spelled out repeatedly in the race thread so there's no point in repeating it here. All rules were followed, the correct procedures were applied as best as possible. All lapped cars would have been let through if they did it a little earlier, which they could have done if they hadn't had to waste so much time ealing with Toto's lobbying and considering throwing the rulebook out the window. Ultimately Mercedes wanted them to apply the correct procedure to 0% of cars, ideally they'd have applied the correct procedure to 100% of the cars, but they ended up applying the correct procedure to 80% of the cars as that was all that there was time to do after dealing with Mercedes lobbying them to fix the race, which is the only reasonable compromise by that point.

    To move away from this tiresome debate, it's worth remarking on the amazing reliability this season. Not a single technical issue at any point for either title rival in the entire season. Red Bull would have made it without any engine penalties too if not for what Hamilton did at Silverstone, and Mercedes may have done too if they hadn't chosen to make tactical changes for performance gains.

    Ferrari were kings though - not a single component change beyond allocation for any Haas or Alfa driver, and while the works drivers did both have engine changes, this was for a mixture of damage incurred at the hands of Bottas in Hungary and R&D on new components they wanted to do for 2022.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,784 ✭✭✭ Burkie1203


    There is a precedent now. Otherwise nothing would ever change.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,124 ✭✭✭ tobefrank321


    If you had the knowledge of F1 you claim, you'd know the number 1 rule is the Race Director can basically over-ride any rule if he wants, particularly when it comes to the safety car. Its his call when to bring in the safety car, unless you think it should be Toto Wolffs call, which seems to be what you and Wolff would like?

    Honestly still can't believe some "fans" wanted this race ended on a safety car.



  • Registered Users Posts: 396 ✭✭ barryribs


    Show me where I said that it should be Toto's call? The race director can over-ride any rule he wants, but no race director in the history of this sport has set up a scenario like this, where the rules only apply to specific cars, at specific times, at a specific race, with the championship on the line.

    Since your such a fan, what would you have done in the situation?



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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,367 Mod ✭✭✭✭ ShamoBuc


    It's a real pity he couldn't decide to let them unlap themselves a little earlier, which would have allowed any...... I mean all..... to unlap themselves and to still have a racing lap.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,796 ✭✭✭ Frank Bullitt


    This.

    The optics on leaving it so late weren't great.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭ quokula


    I mean this is exactly what would, and should have happened only for all the delays while he was dealing with Toto Wolff screaming down the radio at him. Mercedes have really dragged themselves and the sport through the mud with their behaviour at the end of that race.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,580 ✭✭✭✭ namloc1980


    He couldn't as there were marshalls still on track at turn 14 sweeping up the last bits of the Latifi debris. You could see that from the onboards.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,580 ✭✭✭✭ namloc1980


    I don't think Mercedes/Daimler HQ would be happy with Toto's shenanigans. They have enough bad PR with the emissions scandal without Toto dragging the Mercedes brand through the mud.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,675 ✭✭✭ celt262




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,204 ✭✭✭ NinjaTruncs


    Couldn't they unlap via the pitlane? Either sending the lapped cars down the pitlane to come out at the back of the pack or sending the main pack down the pitlane to release the back markers. Ideally the should just drop back into correct position as they are circling the track that the marshals aren't on

    But I've always felt it takes far too long to get a race going after the track has cleared, particularly if there is no debris on the track to cleared up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,492 ✭✭✭✭ mickdw


    They cannot release the lapped cars while marshals are on track as drivers may well be moving too fast when they approach marshals so that is a complete nom starter.

    They cannot just shuffle the lapped cars backwards into correct order as then they will be a lap down on restart whereas traditional safety car brings everyone back into play in a snake behind leader and not a lap down. I would vote for a change there to allow drivers who were lapped to stay lapped and shuffled backwards but rules at the minute don't allow it.

    The current rules do add to excitement. Button in Canada 2011 for example stopped about 6 times after punctures and damage and won the race. Safety car bringing him right back into the running.

    I think they could possibly have red flagged this race. For that to be fair though I think they should ban tyre changing during red flag situations.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,492 ✭✭✭✭ mickdw


    I believe they could use 2 safety cars. One in front as normal, another picking up the rear of the field stopping a few hundred metres short of the accident site. As soon as train passes accident site, allow lapped cars to unlap. As the lapped cars drive around to catch up again, they will come upon the second safety car protecting scene of accident. Once past accident's 2nd safety car can return to pits.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,159 ✭✭✭ This is it


    I'm finding most of your posts on the whole debacle laughable, and the best part is, I can actually imagine you flipping out if the roles were reversed yesterday and you'd have Masi lynched.

    I'm delighted Max won the championship, I really don't like Hamilton, but the way it was done is a farce. And you blaming Toto for slowing the process is hilarious. Masi has told them all where to go enough times now. You can use Toto as an excuse if you wish but Masi made the blunder. Either let them unlap early, or don't let any of them unlap if it's not safe to do so.

    As others have said, why couldn't Sainz have his back markers removed and let him have a shot?

    As happy as I am with a new F1 champion there was no logic to yesterdays finish and it leaves a bad taste. If Max was on the receiving end of that, I'd be furious.

    Edit, also your use of Alonso as a "neutral" is hilarious.



This discussion has been closed.
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