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Irish Property Market 2020 Part 3

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,513 ✭✭✭Villa05


    JimmyVik wrote:
    If lending is strict now because of covid, imagine what things will be like when covid is history and that reverses.


    Is it smart to be pumping property prices. The virus might be history in 12 months, but the cost of it will not be.

    Storing up more problems for the future


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,843 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Shelga wrote: »
    I'm currently in the middle of being outbid, yet again, by a cash buyer who will rent out the property for ~€2k a month. I feel like crying. Looking for anywhere half-decent to live in Dublin, as a single person, is fucking soul-destroying.

    I'm 33, living at home for 2 years now, wasting my life away in this city. Have been looking properly for about a year.

    Anyone else feel like just giving up?

    totally screwed without two high income couples or parent bailout etc. Any of the government schemes be of any help? the social housing thing, is a no brainer, but its not like waiting a decade plus is an option! What kind of properties are you looking for?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Villa05 wrote: »
    Is it smart to be pumping property prices. The virus might be history in 12 months, but the cost of it will not be.

    Storing up more problems for the future

    debt will be rolled over like the 200billion that we added during the last financial crash in 08 and it looks like covid will be only 1/10th of this cant see it being an issue


  • Registered Users Posts: 942 ✭✭✭Ozark707


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    totally screwed without two high income couples or parent bailout etc. Any of the government schemes be of any help? the social housing thing, is a no brainer, but its not like waiting a decade plus is an option! What kind of properties are you looking for?

    Also any chance you are in a job which allows a degree of WFH? If so maybe looking further afield might be an option?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,513 ✭✭✭Villa05


    fliball123 wrote:
    debt will be rolled over like the 200billion that we added during the last financial crash in 08 and it looks like covid will be only 1/10th of this cant see it being an issue


    How's that working out for the Italians, Greeks etc. We are in the third wave of covid and this will be the worst given the time of year. 20 billion and counting is a massive sum of money

    Do you think 0% interest rates should be used for correcting infrastructure deficits delivering returns for the state or blowing asset price bubbles thereby increasing government spending and adding debt

    Is the magic money tree infinite


    A return to normal % rates would be catastrophic for Ireland both for the state and the public who are heavily mortgaged

    The endgame on current policy is obvious


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,098 ✭✭✭combat14


    looks like another massive hit to the economy and national debt on the way after todays covid announcements ..


  • Registered Users Posts: 942 ✭✭✭Ozark707


    combat14 wrote: »
    looks like another massive hit to the economy and national debt on the way after todays covid announcements ..

    House market is immune to Covid...in fact it might cause prices to increase.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Villa05 wrote: »
    How's that working out for the Italians, Greeks etc. We are in the third wave of covid and this will be the worst given the time of year. 20 billion and counting is a massive sum of money

    Do you think 0% interest rates should be used for correcting infrastructure deficits delivering returns for the state or blowing asset price bubbles thereby increasing government spending and adding debt

    Is the magic money tree infinite


    A return to normal % rates would be catastrophic for Ireland both for the state and the public who are heavily mortgaged

    The endgame on current policy is obvious


    Not sure but in Ireland it has not had much of an impact once our debt to GDP does not go through the roof we should be fine


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭Marius34


    Ozark707 wrote: »
    House market is immune to Covid...in fact it might cause prices to increase.

    It seems not only house market but most of the equities around the world, like Stocks.
    Although property price probably has one of the lowest chance to experience any significant fall between any other equities.
    WFH & Savings are the main players to blame.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Ozark707 wrote: »
    House market is immune to Covid...in fact it might cause prices to increase.

    Well the demand seems to be on the up

    Another month of major annual increase in Mortgage approvals. This time for both FTB and Mover purchase.
    "First-time buyer (FTB) mortgage approval volumes
    increased by 34.0% year-on-year to 2,826 while mover
    purchase approval volumes increased by 23.5%
    year-on-year to 1,373."

    https://bpfi.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/BPFI-Mortgage-Approvals-Report-Nov-20-for-web.pdf


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,780 ✭✭✭amacca


    Villa05 wrote: »

    The endgame on current policy is obvious

    I think I know what you think the endgame will be but just in case Im guilty of putting words in anothers mouth would you mind spelling it out?


  • Registered Users Posts: 942 ✭✭✭Ozark707


    fliball123 wrote: »
    Well the demand seems to be on the up

    Another month of major annual increase in Mortgage approvals. This time for both FTB and Mover purchase.
    "First-time buyer (FTB) mortgage approval volumes
    increased by 34.0% year-on-year to 2,826 while mover
    purchase approval volumes increased by 23.5%
    year-on-year to 1,373."

    https://bpfi.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/BPFI-Mortgage-Approvals-Report-Nov-20-for-web.pdf

    Exactly, even with Covid demand is still increasing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭Hubertj


    Villa05 wrote: »
    How's that working out for the Italians, Greeks etc. We are in the third wave of covid and this will be the worst given the time of year. 20 billion and counting is a massive sum of money

    Do you think 0% interest rates should be used for correcting infrastructure deficits delivering returns for the state or blowing asset price bubbles thereby increasing government spending and adding debt

    Is the magic money tree infinite


    A return to normal % rates would be catastrophic for Ireland both for the state and the public who are heavily mortgaged

    The endgame on current policy is obvious

    Admirable faith in our public services to deliver on this utopian solution.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,408 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    Marius34 wrote: »
    It seems not only house market but most of the equities around the world, like Stocks.
    Although property price probably has one of the lowest chance to experience any significant fall between any other equities.
    WFH & Savings are the main players to blame.

    All asset classes have appreciated in value due to the extra cash in circulation from QE.

    If you plot the Residential Retail Price index (Source CSO) against Loans for House Purchases (Source CBI) you can see that it is not Bank lending that is driving the increase in House prices.
    536954.JPG

    The overall Loans for house purchases has been decreasing since 2013 which means that the amount of new loans for house purchases is less than what is being repaid on a monthly basis. which means that their is an increase in Equity owned by existing homeowners.

    The increase in RRPI is being driven by non-bank lending since 2015 which is around the time QE was introduced by the ECB.

    The following chart where I plotted the M2 Money supply v RPPI illustrates this.
    536956.JPG

    This tells me that the increase in house prices since 2015 will be down to a combination of:
    -Institutional Investors that have extra cash available thanks to QE.
    - people's loan requirements are lower due to higher savings or Equity in existing properties.
    -Shortage of Supply

    The last point to note is that QE has mainly stayed in the Financial sector as there was limited government Fiscal Spending unlike in 2020 where 17.6bn has hit the wider economy via direct supports by the Government which is one of the main reasons why we have not seen a fall in property values as you would expect with such a economic Shock.


  • Registered Users Posts: 44 dubh laoch


    Shelga wrote: »
    I'm currently in the middle of being outbid, yet again, by a cash buyer who will rent out the property for ~€2k a month. I feel like crying. Looking for anywhere half-decent to live in Dublin, as a single person, is fucking soul-destroying.

    I'm 33, living at home for 2 years now, wasting my life away in this city. Have been looking properly for about a year.

    Anyone else feel like just giving up?




    In the same boat except a few years further down the line than yourself (if it makes you feel any better). I'm not bidding but definitely feeling in limbo due to living at home in mid 30s without my goal (owning a semi-decent place) getting closer. I hope you get sorted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭Marius34


    The increase in RRPI is being driven by non-bank lending since 2015 which is around the time QE was introduced by the ECB.

    The following chart where I plotted the M2 Money supply v RPPI illustrates this.
    536956.JPG

    This tells me that the increase in house prices since 2015 will be down to a combination of:
    -Institutional Investors that have extra cash available thanks to QE.
    - people's loan requirements are lower due to higher savings or Equity in existing properties.
    -Shortage of Supply

    The last point to note is that QE has mainly stayed in the Financial sector as there was limited government Fiscal Spending unlike in 2020 where 17.6bn has hit the wider economy via direct supports by the Government which is one of the main reasons why we have not seen a fall in property values as you would expect with such a economic Shock.

    I mostly agree with your first diagram. In big part disagree on your second diagram, don't have time to go in details. Thus just commenting on second part.
    M2 has closer relation to deposits/savings, than QE program.
    If you add QE program with M2 money supply, they wouldn't be very inline with each other. Where as deposits/savings would.
    Property price went up significantly before the introduction of QE in March 2015.
    Although QE has a very big impacts on equities. It is not as directly related to Property Market. If the Covid is gone, and inflation recovers close to 2%, QE may be removed/reduced, but it is far from one to tell what will happen with Property prices.
    WFH, has more direct impact in saving increase than QE program. And WFH likely has increase in the the need of living space, thus increase in demands.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,513 ✭✭✭Villa05


    This tells me that the increase in house prices since 2015 will be down to a combination of: -Institutional Investors that have extra cash available thanks to QE. - people's loan requirements are lower due to higher savings or Equity in existing properties. -Shortage of Supply


    Good post

    Your analysis is interesting as it shows how useless or more to the point Government action has made the problem worse

    Tax incentives for institutional investors is basically wasteful as they were already incentivised through access to 0% capital. Giving them tax relief only drove up price and made it impossible for average first time buyer to compete

    Those that are buying and receiving FTB grants of up to 30k are financially well off and may not need the grant to buy. This government action only serves to prop up or inflate price benefiting developers and is of little or no benefit to the individual recipients.

    Despite, having their own land. Controlling the planning system.
    The availability of labour with the expected slowdown in commercial sector.
    And access to 0% finance

    This government refuses to build a relatively low numbervof units required to restore supply/demand.

    Instead all actions by government have resulted in propping up or inflating price resulting in a significant transfer of taxpayer funds to the very wealthy


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,881 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Supply in Limerick absolutely nonexistent anyway, none of my searches in Daft or myhome change week to week or month to month, the same few places just sitting there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,843 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    More and more of any additional supply in Dublin,is going to be given away as free housing, paid for by the likes of those on this forum that cant even afford their own place!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    More and more of any additional supply in Dublin,is going to be given away as free housing, paid for by the likes of those on those forum that cant even afford their own place!


    Exactly this.
    Its been going on for years. And is going to get worse.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,843 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    Exactly this.
    Its been going on for years. And is going to get worse.

    Look you can talk about gaming the system etc all you want. If the government now give you over a million euro, no debt, no stress option v the reality for the working people. Youd be an idiot not to take the option, particularly if you are someone who can rocket up the list from " circumstance" , " single" mother with a few kids... the government game the populace, with their lust for rip off prices...

    I just cant wait for the chickens to come home to roost, the shift will start next election...

    Continue on watching rte and their propaganda though kids, worrying about the vulnerable, while you yourself are stuck at home in the parents etc , working hard. Nowhere on this planet has the sympathy and excuse culture we do...


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,408 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    Marius34 wrote: »
    I mostly agree with your first diagram. In big part disagree on your second diagram, don't have time to go in details. Thus just commenting on second part.
    M2 has closer relation to deposits/savings, than QE program.
    If you add QE program with M2 money supply, they wouldn't be very inline with each other. Where as deposits/savings would.

    Deposits and savings up to 2 years along with Cash in circulation make up the M2 money supply.

    An increase in deposits and savings would not increase the money supply as it would have a negative impact on cash in circulation and the M2 money supply would still end up being the same if these were the only factors in play.

    The central banks increase money supply by cutting Rates and reduce the supply by raising rates and use this blunt tool to manage inflation.

    As rates are bellow Zero and the negative rates are not passed on to all customers by the banks the central bank has used QE to manage the money supply.
    i.e. If they undertake QE.. the purchase assets from the banks and give them cash and thereby increasing the money supply.
    The following Chart plots this and yes the increase in money supply is exactly in line with QE

    537030.JPG
    Marius34 wrote: »
    Property price went up significantly before the introduction of QE in March 2015.
    Yes Property Prices started to Stabilise from July 2012 around the time that the ECB cut it's rate to Zero and thereby making mortgages cheaper. But it wasn't till 2015 that the Non-household buyers (i.e. institutional investors and the Government) really started expanding there purchases.
    i.e.
    537027.JPG
    Marius34 wrote: »
    Although QE has a very big impacts on equities. It is not as directly related to Property Market. If the Covid is gone, and inflation recovers close to 2%, QE may be removed/reduced, but it is far from one to tell what will happen with Property prices.

    Yes QE has a big direct impact on housing as bond yields are low off the back of QE and this drives investors to start seeking out other assets with higher yield such as residential property. This hunt for yield accompanied with plenty of cash is why 1 in 3 properties sales in 2019 was to someone that did not directly occupy the property.

    The following extract from an FT article in Feb of this year even calls this out:
    "The biggest reason of all for Ireland’s housing disaster has to be Europe’s ongoing experiment with quantitative easing and ultra-low interest rates. This has a double-whammy effect on property prices. Investors are lured into the market by a search for returns in an otherwise low-yield environment. And housebuyers are encouraged to buy with cheap mortgages."



    The central banks will find it very difficult to switch off QE as they have already tried this a few times and each time the stock market started to crash which in turn lead to more QE. Whatever they do will need to be done very slowly and overtime which is why we will have low rates for years to come. The only exception to this is if there real economic growth accompanied by a spike in inflation then they will be able to act a bit faster.

    So Once Covid is gone and if the economy does recover and if we start seeing inflation close to 2% (Something that the Eurozone has been trying to achieve since 2008 and have failed miserably at it) then we may see QE slow down but if it was to stop all at once there would be a crash to the stock market and to the property market as investors would exit those markets chasing yield in the bond market.

    Marius34 wrote: »
    WFH, has more direct impact in saving increase than QE program. And WFH likely has increase in the the need of living space, thus increase in demands.

    No doubt WFH has helped a cohort of the population get on the property ladder but there are many who are unable to work from home and only for QE allowing the government to borrow money to support these people via the PUP there would have been a shock to the banking system that was bigger than 2008.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭Marius34


    Deposits and savings up to 2 years along with Cash in circulation make up the M2 money supply.

    An increase in deposits and savings would not increase the money supply as it would have a negative impact on cash in circulation and the M2 money supply would still end up being the same if these were the only factors in play.

    The central banks increase money supply by cutting Rates and reduce the supply by raising rates and use this blunt tool to manage inflation.

    As rates are bellow Zero and the negative rates are not passed on to all customers by the banks the central bank has used QE to manage the money supply.
    i.e. If they undertake QE.. the purchase assets from the banks and give them cash and thereby increasing the money supply.
    The following Chart plots this and yes the increase in money supply is exactly in line with QE

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=537030&stc=1&d=1608754045

    Although I agree there is obvious impact of QE into M2 Money supply. I don't see QE going as much inline with M2 as Savings/Deposits with M2.
    If you would compare Savings/Deposits with M2, you would see that is much closer related. Because Saving/Deposits are part of M2.
    Yes Property Prices started to Stabilise from July 2012 around the time that the ECB cut it's rate to Zero and thereby making mortgages cheaper. But it wasn't till 2015 that the Non-household buyers (i.e. institutional investors and the Government) really started expanding there purchases.
    i.e.
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=537027&stc=1&d=1608751335

    ECB Interested rates has been cut drastically from 4% to 1% in 2009. Didn't help to stop Property price from falling.
    QE came in 2015 March, Dublin experienced 50% jump in property price from it's low by than. So I don't see much of Property price going inline with QE or Interest rates.

    No doubt WFH has helped a cohort of the population get on the property ladder but there are many who are unable to work from home and only for QE allowing the government to borrow money to support these people via the PUP there would have been a shock to the banking system that was bigger than 2008.
    There are large savings since Covid, and they are mostly not from PUP. But simply from same working people not spending as much as before Covid. Household saving alone is over 10 Billions since February, which is even much higher than sum of all PUP payments. If those PUP people wouldn't get PUP support, but a standard unemployment payment, Banking system would survive it, it's very different from 2008 crisis, there are no Credit Bubble this time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,098 ✭✭✭combat14


    looks like the country is about to be shut down again level 5 (plus if new variant here) for at least 6 weeks .. possibly till after patricks day..

    calls for non essential retail to be closed now this time too

    very hard to buy or sell houses in this environment...?


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,202 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Marius34 wrote: »
    Although I agree there is obvious impact of QE into M2 Money supply. I don't see QE going as much inline with M2 as Savings/Deposits with M2.
    If you would compare Savings/Deposits with M2, you would see that is much closer related. Because Saving/Deposits are part of M2.



    ECB Interested rates has been cut drastically from 4% to 1% in 2009. Didn't help to stop Property price from falling.
    QE came in 2015 March, Dublin experienced 50% jump in property price from it's low by than. So I don't see much of Property price going inline with QE or Interest rates.



    There are large savings since Covid, and they are mostly not from PUP. But simply from same working people not spending as much as before Covid. Household saving alone is over 10 Billions since February, which is even much higher than sum of all PUP payments. If those PUP people wouldn't get PUP support, but a standard unemployment payment, Banking system would survive it, it's very different from 2008 crisis, there are no Credit Bubble this time.

    10 billion is the equivalent of 25k X400k houses leaveraged at 5-1its equivalent to 125k houses. 15% of that is nearly 20k houses. Demand will remain strong next year

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,408 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    Marius34 wrote: »
    Although I agree there is obvious impact of QE into M2 Money supply. I don't see QE going as much inline with M2 as Savings/Deposits with M2.
    If you would compare Savings/Deposits with M2, you would see that is much closer related. Because Saving/Deposits are part of M2.

    Savings and deposits grew by 19.6bn from March to October. Households accounted for 9.9bn of this with non-financial corporations accounting for 8.6 and financial institutions 1.1bn. At the same time the government spent 17.6bn in the economy via direct covid supports which were financed by QE.
    Marius34 wrote: »
    ECB Interested rates has been cut drastically from 4% to 1% in 2009. Didn't help to stop Property price from falling.
    Because there was a massive oversupply and banks turned off the taps and stopped lending.
    Marius34 wrote: »
    QE came in 2015 March, Dublin experienced 50% jump in property price from it's low by than. So I don't see much of Property price going inline with QE or Interest rates.

    After every crash you will always have an influx of buyers as they believe the asset (in this case house prices) to be undervalued and you have a bounce from the bottom of the crash.

    What I said was that Institutional investors pilled in once QE started as they were chasing yield and had extra liquidity and the chart I shared earlier clearly shows this and supports my view that QE has contributed to property price rises.


    Marius34 wrote: »
    There are large savings since Covid, and they are mostly not from PUP. But simply from same working people not spending as much as before Covid. Household saving alone is over 10 Billions since February, which is even much higher than sum of all PUP payments. If those PUP people wouldn't get PUP support, but a standard unemployment payment, Banking system would survive it, it's very different from 2008 crisis, there are no Credit Bubble this time.

    I have never questioned the impact of saving on property prices but as I have said this has benefited a small cohort of people of who have been actually able to find a property and buy it. If people saved this money without QE and government sending then this would have had a detrimental effect on the economy over and above what has already happened as people not spending and savings has a deflationary impact making the recession worse. The government spending 17.6bn counteracted this deflationary impact.

    You can debate if paying PUP was the correct thing to do and maybe the government should have used this cash in a different manner to stimulate the economy. Maybe they should have given everyone a stimulus check like in America but the important thing was getting the money out to economy.

    This is getting off topic a bit and away from property but my personal view is that the majority of the people on PUP needed the cash as they were the unlucky ones impacted by the lockdowns and were more likely to spend cash in the economy unlike the people who continued to work and save the 10bn who if were in receipt of the stimulus were more likely to deposit in a bank as opposed to spend in the economy.

    As a side note an extra 10bn in savings from households has cost the banks about 13m so expect profits to be dramatically down (or non existent) even before you take into account the impairments.

    The banking system would not have survived without the government/central bank intervention as the bubble in the Finance/funds industry (Ironically created by QE) would have popped with investors withdrawing funds while the funds needed to post more collateral to cover their positions which sucked more cash out of the stock market which in turn caused more investors to withdraw funds. What was happening in feb/march was on a magnitude of 1000 times what happened in 2008 and if you look at the dates of the top 10 days of Dow Jones losses you can see the impact as this as all these days occurred in during feb/mar 2020.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,408 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    The following is a summary by country of the Risks in the European property Market according to Vulnerabilities in the residential real estate sectors of the EEA countries Report by the European Systemic Risk Board Published September 2019

    I thought people might interested in seeing where Ireland sit in relation to other European countries

    537062.JPG

    According to the report (pages 101-102) Irelands Key vulnerabilities are:
    • Elevated but declining household indebtedness
    • High house price growth

    I found the following paragraph interesting:
    "Housing prices have grown by 11.3% (real annual growth) in Q3 2018 and by 9.9% (real annual growth) over the past three years. This dynamic has been coupled with high levels of investment in construction, albeit coming from a low base, which may contribute to the house price decrease if the economic cycle turns around. On the other hand, this effect is to some extent mitigated by legal and structural limits to supply (high building costs, impaired balance sheets of construction firms, skill shortages and land hoarding). Furthermore, a significant (although declining) part of the RRE transactions are non-mortgage financed, which may to some extent limit the vulnerabilities connected to the collateral values. While recent increases in house prices have outpaced income growth, available estimates do not point to an overvaluation (Central Bank of Ireland’s own valuation metrics indicate that house prices are now in line with or just above values justified by economic fundamentals)."


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭Hubertj


    The following is a summary by country of the Risks in the European property Market according to Vulnerabilities in the residential real estate sectors of the EEA countries Report by the European Systemic Risk Board Published September 2019

    I thought people might interested in seeing where Ireland sit in relation to other European countries

    537062.JPG

    According to the report (pages 101-102) Irelands Key vulnerabilities are:
    • Elevated but declining household indebtedness
    • High house price growth

    I found the following paragraph interesting:
    "Housing prices have grown by 11.3% (real annual growth) in Q3 2018 and by 9.9% (real annual growth) over the past three years. This dynamic has been coupled with high levels of investment in construction, albeit coming from a low base, which may contribute to the house price decrease if the economic cycle turns around. On the other hand, this effect is to some extent mitigated by legal and structural limits to supply (high building costs, impaired balance sheets of construction firms, skill shortages and land hoarding). Furthermore, a significant (although declining) part of the RRE transactions are non-mortgage financed, which may to some extent limit the vulnerabilities connected to the collateral values. While recent increases in house prices have outpaced income growth, available estimates do not point to an overvaluation (Central Bank of Ireland’s own valuation metrics indicate that house prices are now in line with or just above values justified by economic fundamentals)."

    Excellent contributions thank you very much. Very insightful.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭Marius34


    Savings and deposits grew by 19.6bn from March to October. Households accounted for 9.9bn of this with non-financial corporations accounting for 8.6 and financial institutions 1.1bn. At the same time the government spent 17.6bn in the economy via direct covid supports which were financed by QE.

    There 10.8bn increase in household deposits, and another 15bn in non-financial corporations& Insurance &pension funds. So it's 25bn in 8 month from February. Thus it's massive increase in deposits, most has nothing todo with PUP.
    Because there was a massive oversupply and banks turned off the taps and stopped lending.



    After every crash you will always have an influx of buyers as they believe the asset (in this case house prices) to be undervalued and you have a bounce from the bottom of the crash.

    What I said was that Institutional investors pilled in once QE started as they were chasing yield and had extra liquidity and the chart I shared earlier clearly shows this and supports my view that QE has contributed to property price rises.

    I have never questioned the impact of saving on property prices but as I have said this has benefited a small cohort of people of who have been actually able to find a property and buy it. If people saved this money without QE and government sending then this would have had a detrimental effect on the economy over and above what has already happened as people not spending and savings has a deflationary impact making the recession worse. The government spending 17.6bn counteracted this deflationary impact.

    You can debate if paying PUP was the correct thing to do and maybe the government should have used this cash in a different manner to stimulate the economy. Maybe they should have given everyone a stimulus check like in America but the important thing was getting the money out to economy.

    This is getting off topic a bit and away from property but my personal view is that the majority of the people on PUP needed the cash as they were the unlucky ones impacted by the lockdowns and were more likely to spend cash in the economy unlike the people who continued to work and save the 10bn who if were in receipt of the stimulus were more likely to deposit in a bank as opposed to spend in the economy.

    As a side note an extra 10bn in savings from households has cost the banks about 13m so expect profits to be dramatically down (or non existent) even before you take into account the impairments.

    The banking system would not have survived without the government/central bank intervention as the bubble in the Finance/funds industry (Ironically created by QE) would have popped with investors withdrawing funds while the funds needed to post more collateral to cover their positions which sucked more cash out of the stock market which in turn caused more investors to withdraw funds. What was happening in feb/march was on a magnitude of 1000 times what happened in 2008 and if you look at the dates of the top 10 days of Dow Jones losses you can see the impact as this as all these days occurred in during feb/mar 2020.

    I'm not going to comment on all this, you bringing many reasons which I would agree, but that's my point, that there are many different reasons for Property demands than QE or Interest rates. That QE is not as direct cause as Savings/Deposits on increase of M2 money supply in Ireland, or property price. As I said QE(or other government borrowing) is not going really inline with M2 increase, or increase in demands for Property. It obviously has large impact, and increase in money supply across Euro Area, that I don't argue. But there was even larger borrowings by Irish government in last crisis, and Ireland didn't see a jump in M2 supply or Household savings, again for many different reasons that I don't want to go into.
    Whereas people WFH (and in lockdown) has direct impact on savings, and their need for space.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    I know this is an anicdote but I know a couple who saved a 30% deposit in two years by moving back in with parents plus the parent are helping so they will end up with a 40% deposit that is not uncommo and its how a fair few are buying in Dublin. They are not high earners on circa 35k each.


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