Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

ionadnapokot

This will be Ruddocks first 6N start!

He seems like he has been around forever

salmocab

VANG1 wrote: »

There are amazing backs coming through at Leinster but they are blocked by what is now the Irish back line. It’s a glass ceiling. Hard to see that they can fully develop.

Heard the same about back rows for the last few years, Doris and Connors seem to have managed and Deegan too although injury has slowed that down a bit.

The Inbetween is mine

ionadnapokot wrote: »

This will be Ruddocks first 6N start!

He seems like he has been around forever

If Ryan and Henderson are fit I don't think he starts..Beirne VDF and Stander is the back row I would think

Louis Friend

If David Nucifora and the IRFU were doing their job:

- Harry Byrne would be starting for Ulster
- Billy Burns would still be in England
- Ross Byrne and Ben Healy would be getting more game time for Leinster

Then we’d have Carberry/Healy/Hanrahan, Sexton/R Byrne, Carty, and H Byrne/Madigan.

Neither Burns nor Hanrahan offer anything for the future, so the former should be sent packing and the latter should be down the pecking order.

ionadnapokot

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

If Ryan and Henderson are fit I don't think he starts..Beirne VDF and Stander is the back row I would think

IF Ryan is back!
Yes it would make good sense to move Beirne to 6 for lineout.

Performance last week from the second row for 80mins and 14men.
https://www.the42.ie/tadhg-beirne-ireland-wales-5349426-Feb2021/
It's up there with the best i've ever seen from an Irish 2nd row.

Henderson played well but looked a bit ploddy and might struggle 8 days after 54min+ and he's been out for so long.

theVersatile

Louis Friend wrote: »

If David Nucifora and the IRFU were doing their job:

- Harry Byrne would be starting for Ulster
- Billy Burns would still be in England
- Ross Byrne and Ben Healy would be getting more game time for Leinster

Then we’d have Carberry/Healy/Hanrahan, Sexton/R Byrne, Carty, and H Byrne/Madigan.

Neither Burns nor Hanrahan offer anything for the future, so the former should be sent packing and the latter should be down the pecking order.

Burns joined Ulster in 2018 when Healy and Byrne were both still 19. It would've been a hell of a call to decline Burns and boot JJ at that stage considering there was no guarantee that any of them would progress past 20s. Maybe if at that stage Ross Byrne had moved to Ulster and Frawley had stayed at 10 then you could argue, but moving 19 year olds across the country on the off chance they might come good isn't the way (especially considering Byrne missed most of the 20s Six Nations and WC that year if I recall correctly).

prawnsambo

Rugby4568 wrote: »

Marcus Smith and Redpath played that game against Ireland in the 2019 six nations.

Speaking of Marcus Smith, he's just signed a contract extension with Quins.

UAEguy2020

ionadnapokot wrote: »

IF Ryan is back!
Yes it would make good sense to move Beirne to 6 for lineout.

Performance last week from the second row for 80mins and 14men.
https://www.the42.ie/tadhg-beirne-ireland-wales-5349426-Feb2021/
It's up there with the best i've ever seen from an Irish 2nd row.

Henderson played well but looked a bit ploddy and might struggle 8 days after 54min+ and he's been out for so long.

And let’s not forget before the game the talk was he wasn’t a test standard lock...

Dubinusa

I think another loss this weekend will shift Farrells thinking. Assuming he selects the same team from last week. Of course, aside from O'Mahony. 2 losses on the trot would be the end of this tournament and surely change in selection would be imminent.
That said, who knows what Farrell thinks. He might just try to ride out the rest of the 6nations and hope for the best possible results, with the same lads.

UAEguy2020

Louis Friend wrote: »

If David Nucifora and the IRFU were doing their job:

- Harry Byrne would be starting for Ulster
- Billy Burns would still be in England
- Ross Byrne and Ben Healy would be getting more game time for Leinster

Then we’d have Carberry/Healy/Hanrahan, Sexton/R Byrne, Carty, and H Byrne/Madigan.

Neither Burns nor Hanrahan offer anything for the future, so the former should be sent packing and the latter should be down the pecking order.

In Ireland if we want to improve our player depth we need to move on players who clearly will never be good enough to play for Ireland or at most make a squad. Look at Munster, if Hanrahan wasn’t there we could be seeing Healy potentially being in contention for Ireland over the next 12 months and would be talking at potentially Crowley being considered in the near future.

If you look at NZL they have that perfect system (granted they don’t have the finances we have to keep players they don’t need) but if you aren’t a potential AB in the future you are moved on. We need to do that with our players unless the player makes a difference in some way shape or form, not just there to fill a jersey.

arsebiscuits1

Louis Friend wrote: »

If David Nucifora and the IRFU were doing their job:

- Harry Byrne would be starting for Ulster
- Billy Burns would still be in England
- Ross Byrne and Ben Healy would be getting more game time for Leinster

Then we’d have Carberry/Healy/Hanrahan, Sexton/R Byrne, Carty, and H Byrne/Madigan.

Neither Burns nor Hanrahan offer anything for the future, so the former should be sent packing and the latter should be down the pecking order.

Any chance you'd have the lotto numbers from 3 years ago too? I'd love to go back in time and win it.

Easy to criticise people for doing their job sitting in a chair with hindsight

The Inbetween is mine

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

And let’s not forget before the game the talk was he wasn’t a test standard lock...

I don't think any single knowledgeable poster on here has said that..

salmocab

salmocab wrote: »

Heard the same about back rows for the last few years, Doris and Connors seem to have managed and Deegan too although injury has slowed that down a bit.

Less risky to put in new back rows in a game tbh than 10's, 9's or centres.

With only 4 provinces and a lot of the talent stacked at Leinster there needs to be more moving players around to different provinces for development and also a more ruthless attitude to players who aren't going to make the international grade.

Too many young lads want to stay in Dublin but they are lucky to be playing professional rugby in the first place. It's only a small country in the first place where each province is only a couple of hours away by car in any case.

Surely they could work out something with loan deals or whatever like they do in soccer.

It's not rocket science.

UAEguy2020

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

I don't think any single knowledgeable poster on here has said that..

They literally had, they said he could play at 6 but did have the power to be a test standard lock, think we can put that to bed now...

sydthebeat

some posters seem to have a huge issue with the realisation that there can only be one irish test out half at any given moment.

ionadnapokot

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

I don't think any single knowledgeable poster on here has said that..

Unfortunately plenty of "knowledgeable" posters have had there say on Beirne over the years

Not a big or powerful unit by second-row standards
Wont amount to anything more than 19/20 jersey
Will struggle to make Munster starting XV
He mustn't be showing it in training
Lineout misfires when he's selected
The bright new shiny thing etc
etc

He's Irreplaceable now!

Don't worry, we'll have Zebo back for 2023.

https://punditarena.com/rugby/eoin-harte/simon-zebo-hint-munster-return/

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

some posters seem to have a huge issue with the realisation that there can only be one irish test out half at any given moment.

I think it's more so that the development of potential 10's is being held up by 10's that are likely to never be good enough for top-tier international test level.

a more pronounced issue in Ireland with limited provincial places. but if there are only 4 places then quite simply more ruthlessness and thought/planning is required.

(not helped by the fact that currently there are too many pro14 games that are of no to limited value in terms of intensity for player development towards test level)

ClanofLams

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Unfortunately plenty of "knowledgeable" posters have had there say on Beirne over the years

Not a big or powerful unit by second-row standards
Wont amount to anything more than 19/20 jersey
Will struggle to make Munster starting XV
He mustn't be showing it in training
Lineout misfires when he's selected
The bright new shiny thing etc
etc

He's Irreplaceable now!

There's a lot of posters on here who put faith in the infallibility of Schmidt/Farrell. Obviously both coaches know far more than me and I presume pretty much everyone on here but this myth on here that they are all knowing and seeing is bizarre.

A player who has a couple of games here and there and a few camp attendances falls out of favour with Farrell and it's "look he got his chance, not up to it, stop talking nonsense, move on". No consideration at all that another international coach might reach a different conclusion or that Farrell may be wrong on occasion.

OneLungDavy

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

They literally had, they said he could play at 6 but did have the power to be a test standard lock, think we can put that to bed now...

I thought he was our best player against France in the Autumn, it should have been put to bed then.
I still think he could be an equally good 6.

sydthebeat

glasso wrote: »

I think it's more so that the development of potential 10's is being held up by 10's that are likely to never be good enough for top-tier international test level.

a more pronounced issue in Ireland with limited provincial places.

(not helped by the fact that currently there are a too many pro14 games that are of no to limited value in terms of intensity for player development towards test level)

heres a question for you...

do you sacrifice 2nd position for 5th position in this years 6 nations, and forgo 2 million euro prize money, which is 2 players central contracts for 2 years....

all in the name of blooding a 10 that make or may not take to test level rugby

if the answer to this is yes.... what 2 centrally contracted players do you cut to move abroad... and why??

GeordieC

What I'm getting from this discussion over 10s, is that we now have an embarrassment of riches at club level, and due to coaches backing their main horse for the big games, we aren't seeing enough of the potential internationals getting enough minutes.

There was talk of the possibility of London Irish being a '5th province' and that would show a greater shop window for players in all positions. Is there anymore talk of this? SOB probably delayed his move there, so that he made the RWC, but since his move we are seeing more of the backrow at Leinster

This also creates an opportunity for Irish qualified players in the Premiership to remain in the Prem, whilst trying to get noticed by Ireland and their other potential countries.

Note: I am an Ulster fan, but please avoid the Paddy Jackson for Ireland discussion. That ship has sailed

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

heres a question for you...

do you sacrifice 2nd position for 5th position in this years 6 nations, and forgo 2 million euro prize money, which is 2 players central contracts for 2 years....

all in the name of blooding a 10 that make or may not take to test level rugby

if the answer to this is yes.... what 2 centrally contracted players do you cut to move abroad... and why??

you don't even have to cut players - at least not initially - more like give more games and more significant games to the prospects - basically mandated to do so really as of course the provinces are out to win

that is not even about the 6 nations or place money there - development and planning at the provinces is the root cause

particularly in the situation that has been apparent for over a year now with Carberry

but of course with the IRFU policy of keeping the players in Ireland there is a definite obvious reticence on the flipside to let / tell them to go

you got that 2 million stat from newstalk - heard it also

Podge_irl

London Irish as a "5th province" is unfortunately a complete non-runner. They would not even be allowed release Irish players for training camps due to the agreements between PRL and RFU.

prawnsambo

GeordieC wrote: »

What I'm getting from this discussion over 10s, is that we now have an embarrassment of riches at club level, and due to coaches backing their main horse for the big games, we aren't seeing enough of the potential internationals getting enough minutes.

There was talk of the possibility of London Irish being a '5th province' and that would show a greater shop window for players in all positions. Is there anymore talk of this? SOB probably delayed his move there, so that he made the RWC, but since his move we are seeing more of the backrow at Leinster

This also creates an opportunity for Irish qualified players in the Premiership to remain in the Prem, whilst trying to get noticed by Ireland and their other potential countries.

Note: I am an Ulster fan, but please avoid the Paddy Jackson for Ireland discussion. That ship has sailed

With four provinces, the best from each should be up to the standard giving us four to choose from. But currently one of those is injured and the other (it seems) is not deemed up to the task.

Former Former Former

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Unfortunately plenty of "knowledgeable" posters have had there say on Beirne over the years

Not a big or powerful unit by second-row standards
Wont amount to anything more than 19/20 jersey
Will struggle to make Munster starting XV
He mustn't be showing it in training
Lineout misfires when he's selected
The bright new shiny thing etc
etc

He's Irreplaceable now!

Yeah I'm one of said people, and tbh I don't think one game (against a pretty poor Wales) means that we can say for certain that actually no, he's top class after all.

Is he irreplaceable? Well, when Henderson gets some more game time under his belt, we'll see I guess. Depth at second row is as bad as it's ever been IMO so hopefully Beirne does stick it to me and other "knowledgeable posters" like me.

UAEguy2020

Former Former Former wrote: »

Yeah I'm one of said people, and tbh I don't think one game (against a pretty poor Wales) means that we can say for certain that actually no, he's top class after all.

Is he irreplaceable? Well, when Henderson gets some more game time under his belt, we'll see I guess. Depth at second row is as bad as it's ever been IMO so hopefully Beirne does stick it to me and other "knowledgeable posters" like me.

How is depth at second row worse than it’s ever been 😂 Ryan, Henderson, Beirne potentially Baird is far better than where we were for a long time.

ionadnapokot

Former Former Former wrote: »

Yeah I'm one of said people, and tbh I don't think one game (against a pretty poor Wales) means that we can say for certain that actually no, he's top class after all.

Is he irreplaceable? Well, when Henderson gets some more game time under his belt, we'll see I guess. Depth at second row is as bad as it's ever been IMO so hopefully Beirne does stick it to me and other "knowledgeable posters" like me.

Well I’m guilty of saying Beirne is irreplaceable!

But I don’t have any concerns about him to perform at the highest level of test rugby as a second row.

Wales are a poor side in the backs (without Davies and LWilliams) but the pack have Owens, AW Jones, Tupiric and Falatau.
Beirne was comfortable the best forward on the pitch.
In a 7 man pack for 66mins+

CMcsporty

How can Ireland stop Dupont?
Any Ideas?

Sexton pretty unhappy here.