Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Former Former Former

If that team turns out to be accurate, the biggest loser from this series will be Andrew Conway. He seems to have dropped out of favour completely.

If he's now behind Stockdale, Earls, Larmour, Lowe and Keenan (and even Daly?), with young guys like Baloucoune and O'Brien coming through, it could be a long way back for him.

Jump_In_Jack

Former Former Former wrote: »

If that team turns out to be accurate, the biggest loser from this series will be Andrew Conway. He seems to have dropped out of favour completely.

If he's now behind Stockdale, Earls, Larmour, Lowe and Keenan (and even Daly?), with young guys like Baloucoune and O'Brien coming through, it could be a long way back for him.

Conway was injured though.

UAEguy2020

If that’s the team I’m disappointed Daly hasn’t been given a run at least on the bench.

James Ryan I would drop not only because of his recently performances (not terrible just under par, which by his high standards is terrible) but he has start 3 games and could do with less game time in this game. The other side of it is he could do with more time working in random with Kelleher to get the lineout right.

Also disappointed with O’Mahony at 7, I actually think he has been playing the best he has played since 2018 and I would have started him (alongside VDF & Doris) at 6 with Stander on the bench but I don’t know why they are persisting with him at 7, what it does tell me is once he is back Dan Leavy will almost certainly be the starting 7 as he is the most O’Mahony like 7 option in Irish rugby.

Overall I don’t mind Farrell being abit conservative here as in fairness to him he has tried out a lot of different players and different combinations in the previous 3 games but now it’s time to get a good win on Saturday and end this weird tournament on a high and focus on the 6N in February.

If that’s the team and the guys perform I think we should have too much for Scotland, without Russell or Hastings at 10 they really need to beat us upfront to have a good chance of winning as without Russell or Hastings their back line isn’t as potent as it could be although VDM and Hogg will be big individual threats.

I wouldn’t make an accurate prediction until I see the Scotland team but right now I’d back us to win by around the handicap margin.

Former Former Former

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Conway was injured though.

Was he? I hadn't heard that

irishbucsfan

Former Former Former wrote: »

Was he? I hadn't heard that

Yes he missed the Georgia match because of a hamstring issue

Following today's unconvincing 23-10 win over Georgia, the head coach reported a long list of casualties.

Farrell was already without the services of captain Johnny Sexton, Tadhg Furlong, Garry Ringrose, Jordan Larmour, Robbie Henshaw, Andrew Conway and James Lowe.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2020/1129/1181258-burns-and-earls-on-lengthy-ireland-injury-list/

aloooof

Was he injured for the England game? There's been a bit of rotation, but my impression there was he was omitted down to form rather than rotation; he was quiet enough in the Wales game, and the France 6N's game.

VdF is another whose stock has fallen over the last while.

sydthebeat

scotland

15. Stuart Hogg CAPTAIN (Exeter Chiefs) – 79 caps

14. Darcy Graham (Edinburgh) – 14 caps
13. Chris Harris (Gloucester) – 22 caps
12. Duncan Taylor (Saracens) – 27 caps
11. Duhan van der Merwe (Edinburgh) – 4 caps

10. Jaco van der Walt (Edinburgh) – 0 caps
9. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors) – 36 caps

1. Rory Sutherland (Edinburgh) – 10 caps
2. Fraser Brown VICE CAPTAIN (Glasgow Warriors) – 53 caps
3. Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) – 33 caps
4. Scott Cummings (Glasgow Warriors) – 16 caps
5. Jonny Gray (Exeter Chiefs) – 60 caps
6. Blade Thomson (Scarlets) – 8 caps
7. Jamie Ritchie VICE CAPTAIN (Edinburgh) – 22 caps
8. Matt Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) – 8 caps

Substitutes:
16. Stuart McInally (Edinburgh) – 40 caps
17. Oli Kebble (Glasgow Warriors) – 4 caps
18. WP Nel (Edinburgh) – 39 caps
19. Sam Skinner (Exeter Chiefs) – 9 caps
20. Blair Cowan (London Irish) – 17 caps
21. Sam Hidalgo-Clyne (Exeter Chiefs) – 13 caps
22. Huw Jones (Glasgow Warriors) – 25 caps
23. Sean Maitland (Saracens) – 49 caps

sydthebeat

watson injured?

big loss to scotland

molloyjh

I must say, I dont understand the "this was a chance to blood new players" line. Whatever complaints people can have about Farrell, not blooding new players surely can't be one of them? So far he has blooded Ed Byrne, Kelleher, Deegan, Doris, Connors, JGP, Burns, Keenan, Lowe and Daly. Add to that Baird and O'Toole may have been capped but for injury at the wrong time. And consider EOS may yet get capped this weekend. A large chunk of those new caps (and their subsequent caps) came in either the 6Ns or away to England a few weeks ago. If they aren't incredibly meaningful ways to blood new players i don't know what is. Yet Farrell has gotten loads of criticism for not capping new guys against Georgia and possibly not capping new guys against Scotland in a non-6Ns game. Am I the only one who finds that a bit hard to wrap their head around?

AdamD

molloyjh wrote: »

I must say, I dont understand the "this was a chance to blood new players" line. Whatever complaints people can have about Farrell, not blooding new players surely can't be one of them? So far he has blooded Ed Byrne, Kelleher, Deegan, Doris, Connors, JGP, Burns, Keenan, Lowe and Daly. Add to that Baird and O'Toole may have been capped but for injury at the wrong time. And consider EOS may yet get capped this weekend. A large chunk of those new caps (and their subsequent caps) came in either the 6Ns or away to England a few weeks ago. If they aren't incredibly meaningful ways to blood new players i don't know what is. Yet Farrell has gotten loads of criticism for not capping new guys against Georgia and possibly not capping new guys against Scotland in a non-6Ns game. Am I the only one who finds that a bit hard to wrap their head around?

Its even more difficult to wrap around when there aren't really any notable young players being left out.

Jump_In_Jack

aloooof wrote: »

Was he injured for the England game? There's been a bit of rotation, but my impression there was he was omitted down to form rather than rotation; he was quiet enough in the Wales game, and the France 6N's game.

VdF is another whose stock has fallen over the last while.

Conway wasn't initially selected in the 23 for the Wales match but he came straight in to start on the right wing when Stockdale (selected at fullback with Lowe on the left wing) pulled out and Keenan shifted from right wing to fullback while Earls was on the bench to ease him back in after an injury and they obviously didn't want to start him until he was fully proven to be fit.

As soon as Earls was proven fit for the England match he came in and replaced Conway (unclear if he was injured by then), and Stockdale was on the bench this time to ease him back in after the injury that ruled him out of the Wales match. Lowe and Keenan stayed at left wing and fullback respectively.

Then for Georgia as Lowe was injured sometime around that match against England and Conway was ruled out with hamstring injury, they decided to retain Keenan but move him back onto the right wing, swapped Earls over to the left, and put Stockdale back in to start at fullback, with Daly making his debut off the bench, which I think is fairly good man management practice of a debutante.

So now that Stockdale, Earls and Keenan are all fully fit to start and Lowe is out, they have decided to select a centre as 23 rather than Conway (unclear if he is fit again yet) or Daly.

So for me as it stands now it seems the current pecking order is:
11. Lowe, 15. Stockdale, 14./23. Keenan/Earls.
Next in line: Conway, then Daly and when Larmour comes in we can presume he will leapfrog everyone to come straight onto the right wing.

And by the Six Nations there may be a return for Will Addison, Robert Baloucoune,
or possibly Darren Sweetnam or Mike Haley could get another look in,
and there may be some interest in Jimmy O'Brien or Michael Lowry coming in to training for a look at them.

And there may be more players, this is just off the top of my head.

Dubinusa

If Bealham is a replacement lh, I don't get it. He surely is not a viable option! Why not give EOS a shot? He's a lh and is playing well.

P.Walnuts

Dubinusa wrote: »

If Bealham is a replacement lh, I don't get it. He surely is not a viable option! Why not give EOS a shot? He's a lh and is playing well.

EOS on bench

aloooof

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1334497932347838469

UAEguy2020

It will be a tough game that we will need to play well to win but comparing the packs of that Irish pack gets outmuscled or bullied by that Scottish pack the Irish pack really need to take a look in the mirror, Scotland can win I don’t question that but bullying us upfront should not be the pathway to victory and if it is I question the Irish players commitment to Ireland if I’m honest.

CMcsporty

AdamD wrote: »

Its even more difficult to wrap around when there aren't really any notable young players being left out.

I can think of at least 4!

O'Sullivan instead of 57 mins of Bealham
Harry B instead of 44mins of Brother or Burns
Casey instead of 23 mins of Marmion or Murray
Baird instead of 18 mins of Quinn Roux

probably even Wycherley

Out of the 3,600 mins + Ireland players have played so far this Autumn Farrell could have easily afforded at least 142 minutes of rugby to these 4 new and younger players.
Ireland would probably have even fared better performance wise if he had done so.

& now Daly will have gotten 18 minutes!
Instead we had 33 year old Keith Earls on the wing.
After 7/8 weeks in camp?

At least O'Sullivan will now play some minutes!

molloyjh

Pretty much as expected. I'd have started Bealham and benched Porter due to the latters game time so far. I'd also have started Kelleher, but don't think there's much in that if indeed anything at all. I'd probably have started JGP but Murray hasn't been bad lately so again, not too fussed there. Finally, I'd probably have put Daly at 23. He covers wing and FB with Farrell really only covering 13. An injury in the back 3 would mean a lot of messy reshuffling. Prob Henshaw to FB and Stockdale to the wing. But then I suppose Earls to 13 is the only other option, so whatever.

Good to see EOS on the bench. His limited prep time would have prevented his selection last week, but there was no such excuse this week. Had he not been selected that would have been a mistake.

Also interesting to see Henshaw and Aki switched. I wonder what the thought process is here? Could they be looking to exploit Henshaws kicking game more maybe???

Dog Botherer

i’d be worried about our scrums in the last quarter. that bench front row for Scotland is no joke, and much better than our replacements.

Former Former Former

Glad to see Henshaw at 12 and Aki at 13, looks to me to be the better arrangement.

Otherwise, it's all a bit meh.

UAEguy2020

Dog Botherer wrote: »

i’d be worried about our scrums in the last quarter. that bench front row for Scotland is no joke, and much better than our replacements.

At scrum time at least I’m not sure id agree, John Ryan is very good at scrum time, it’s around the park where he is lacking imo. Eric O’Sullivan would be the main worry as he’s uncapped and Kelleher because he is still inexperienced.

Clegg

CMcsporty wrote: »

I can think of at least 4!

O'Sullivan instead of 57 mins of Bealham
Harry B instead of 44mins of Brother or Burns
Casey instead of 23 mins of Marmion or Murray
Baird instead of 18 mins of Quinn Roux

probably even Wycherley

Out of the 3,600 mins + Ireland have played so far this Autumn Farrell could have easily afforded at least 142 minutes of rugby to 4 new and younger players.
Ireland would probably have even fared better performance wise if he had done so.

& now Daly will have gotten 18 minutes!
Instead we had 33 year old Keith Earls on the wing.
After 7/8 weeks in camp?

At least O'Sullivan will now play some minutes!

There are plenty of reasons to criticise Farrell's tenure as Ireland head coach, but the one real positive has been his willingness to integrate new, younger players into the side.

The four players you've singled out are poor examples anyway. For three of the four you've mentioned there are perfectly good reasons why they haven't been involved during this tournament. Baird was injured and has only recently recovered. He couldn't train with Ireland during his injury period so it made nonsense to cap him. He was in the squad for the Italy game last March that was cancelled so he's clearly in Farrell's plans.

Harry Byrne and Craig Casey are probably Ireland's future 9&10, but both are inexperienced at pro level and need more time there. Byrne especially will have benefited from the uninterrupted stretch of games as Leinsters first choice 10. It's better for his long term development than being third or fourth choice in the Ireland squad and not even once getting onto the pitch.

Criticising Farrell for not picking Daly more is a bit unfair when you consider he's already capped two new outside backs in the last few months. Keenan and Lowe also need time to prove their worth. Can't give time to everyone.

molloyjh

Clegg wrote: »

There are plenty of reasons to criticise Farrell's tenure as Ireland head coach, but the one real positive has been his willingness to integrate new, younger players into the side.

The four players you've singled out are poor examples anyway. For three of the four you've mentioned there are perfectly good reasons why they haven't been involved during this tournament. Baird was injured and has only recently recovered. He couldn't train with Ireland during his injury period so it made nonsense to cap him. He was in the squad for the Italy game last March that was cancelled so he's clearly in Farrell's plans.

Harry Byrne and Craig Casey are probably Ireland's future 9&10, but both are inexperienced at pro level and need more time there. Byrne especially will have benefited from the uninterrupted stretch of games as Leinsters first choice 10. It's better for his long term development than being third or fourth choice in the Ireland squad and not even once getting onto the pitch.

Criticising Farrell for not picking Daly more is a bit unfair when you consider he's already capped two new outside backs in the last few months. Keenan and Lowe also need time to prove their worth. Can't give time to everyone.

And we're actually in rude health in the back 3 in terms of options for once. Daly is almost certainly behind Stockdale, Lowe, Larmour, Conway and Keenan. And that's if you exclude Earls. Ballacoune could likely be ahead of him too. If we're complaining that a guy who is, at best, 3rd choice isn't getting enough time it says all we need to say about what we have to complain about there.

aloooof

CMcsporty wrote: »

I can think of at least 4!

O'Sullivan instead of 57 mins of Bealham
Harry B instead of 44mins of Brother or Burns
Casey instead of 23 mins of Marmion or Murray
Baird instead of 18 mins of Quinn Roux

probably even Wycherley

Out of the 3,600 mins + Ireland players have played so far this Autumn Farrell could have easily afforded at least 142 minutes of rugby to these 4 new and younger players.
Ireland would probably have even fared better performance wise if he had done so.

& now Daly will have gotten 18 minutes!
Instead we had 33 year old Keith Earls on the wing.
After 7/8 weeks in camp?

At least O'Sullivan will now play some minutes!

That's bring tremendously picky, imo. And your case for Harry Byrne is against 2 guys who had 1 international start between them at the start of the year. (If it was for Sexton, I could maybe see the point). But removing that you're down to 98 mins of rugby.

And that's not even looking at the rest. For example, Baird was injured initially. But here you seem to be make a case for him to get 18 mins of rugby over Quinn Roux. But you're also criticising Farrell for giving Daly 18 minutes of rugby. You can't have it both ways.

In reality, he's given nearly 30% of the minutes available to guys who have made their debut this year. (That's not including guys like Ross Byrne who had 1 start before this year).

sydthebeat

have H Byrne, C Casey or R Baird ever started a Heineken cup game?

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

have H Byrne, C Casey or R Baird ever started a Heineken cup game?

Nor subbed

UAEguy2020

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Nor subbed

Baird played v Saracens.

aloooof

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Baird played v Saracens.

And I think Casey player off the bench for 3 mins vs Racing or something. (You get away with nathing around here :pac:).

But it doesn't really change the more substantive point.

Dog Botherer

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Baird played v Saracens.

and along with Keenan was one of Leinster’s best players.

Baird is a bad example anyway because it’s almost certain he would have been capped if he wasn’t injured.

Squidgy Black

sydthebeat wrote: »

have H Byrne, C Casey or R Baird ever started a Heineken cup game?

Baird made one appearance in last years when he came off the bench against Sarries for Toner , Casey got 25 minutes in total, but Byrne hasn't got a single Champions cup appearance to his name.

Solutionking

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Baird made one appearance in last years when he came off the bench against Sarries for Toner , Casey got 25 minutes in total, but Byrne hasn't got a single Champions cup appearance to his name.

Did Casey not start a dead rubber last year when Munster was already knocked out? or maybe I am going nuts