Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

siltirocker

"Not up to international standard" is the most over used phrase here.

People throwing it at Stockdale, Marmion, etc. It's nonsense. I think someone even questioned if Henderson was up to it. A Lion. Also someone went on about Easterby as a coach and said the same about him as a player. Again, another B&I Lion.

P.Walnuts

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Just look at the reaction any time Byrne makes a mistake, you’d swear he killed someone.

Stop crying.

This post confirms (none actually needed at this point) that you literally have no idea what you are talking about

UAEguy2020

P.Walnuts wrote: »

This post confirms (none actually needed at this point) that you literally have no idea what you are talking about

Bye Walnut

UAEguy2020

siltirocker wrote: »

"Not up to international standard" is the most over used phrase here.

People throwing it at Stockdale, Marmion, etc. It's nonsense. I think someone even questioned if Henderson was up to it. A Lion. Also someone went on about Easterby as a coach and said the same about him as a player. Again, another B&I Lion.

Those people confuse international standard with world class most of the time.

Yeah_Right

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Would you guys rather a) win the 6 Nations while performing badly and losing a game or 2 OR b) finish 2nd or 3rd but see some real progress including a win over England and some youngsters getting quality minutes?

TBH, I'm not sure which I would pick.

Anyone who isn't picking winning is out of their mind. Why do we want to look good doing anything other than winning?

Winning is a habit, winning teams have a better chance than losing teams of continuing to win. Optics are arbitrary and often completely ignorant and distorted from the harsh realities of what a team goes through to win.

As a former distance runner, I can remember a time when I felt that just outkicking someone on the final straight wasn't enough, I grew out of that nonsense eventually. Win everything you can and put the onus on other people to force you to lose.

mfceiling

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Anyone who isn't picking winning is out of their mind. Why do we want to look good doing anything other than winning?

Winning is a habit, winning teams have a better chance than losing teams of continuing to win. Optics are arbitrary and often completely ignorant and distorted from the harsh realities of what a team goes through to win.

As a former distance runner, I can remember a time when I felt that just outkicking someone on the final straight wasn't enough, I grew out of that nonsense eventually. Win everything you can and put the onus on other people to force you to lose.

Wait now..... Venjur is Sonia O'Sullivan.

ElisaAtWar

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Those people confuse international standard with world class most of the time.

So what is world class? To be honest that's just a silly question. What is far more relevant is how you build and maintain a quality team. You use the same resources, give or take, you provide them with blinkered coaching, you get the same results.

So the argument is not about Murray's form or Sexton's form, the argument is a willingness for change. And that argument is not related to a player, it's related to a philosophy. And the Irish philosophy is unique. It allows new players into the mainstream but there will be no change in the fundamentals.

So if you accept that argument then Keenan, stockdale and earls are irrelevant. They do not exist in such a strategy.

Ireland is a brute force team and welcome back brute force players. There is nothing but brute force and dullness behind that brute force. It will never succeed but it is what it is

The Inbetween is mine

mfceiling wrote: »

Wait now..... Venjur is Sonia O'Sullivan.

He shíts himself here quite a lot anyways

ElisaAtWar

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

So what is world class? To be honest that's just a silly question.

It is and it isn't. There are certain talents that always stand out regardless of team, setup or environment.

But there are also a lot of players who earn that moniker purely because they are surrounded with a high calibre of player and coaching, as opposed to being a genuine exception themselves.

The best year for Irish rugby to my mind was 2018, but there is an argument that we had more world class players in 2009. What we didn't have in 2009 was a coach with the gifts and vision of Schmidt, and a depth of squad like we have now.

Fitness, conditioning, coaching and rugby IQ all contribute to the standard of player a person is and these are rarely consistent over a career.

But do Ireland not generally punch far above our weight rather than below it?

thomond2006

This is world class:

The Inbetween is mine

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

He shíts himself here quite a lot anyways

I think you are confusing Sonia with Paula.

But to be honest I imagine most sports people have run into scatological concerns in one form or another over the course of their careers.

The Inbetween is mine

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think you are confusing Sonia with Paula.

But to be honest I imagine most sports people have run into scatological concerns in one form or another over the course of their careers.

No, 1996 she ran off the track as she had the tom tits unfortunately

UAEguy2020

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It is and it isn't. There are certain talents that always stand out regardless of team, setup or environment.

But there are also a lot of players who earn that moniker purely because they are surrounded with a high calibre of player and coaching, as opposed to being a genuine exception themselves.

The best year for Irish rugby to my mind was 2018, but there is an argument that we had more world class players in 2009. What we didn't have in 2009 was a coach with the gifts and vision of Schmidt, and a depth of squad like we have now.

Fitness, conditioning, coaching and rugby IQ all contribute to the standard of player a person is and these are rarely consistent over a career.

But do Ireland not generally punch far above our weight rather than below it?

The question is are we capable of being one of the top nations of world rugby? The answer over the past 7 year is yes and with that weather we punch above our weight or not is irrelevant. If we want to get to semi’s of potentially win a RWC we always need to be improving and not settle for less just because we are small.

aloooof

Deleted User wrote: »

I think you are confusing Sonia with Paula.

But to be honest I imagine most sports people have run into scatological concerns in one form or another over the course of their careers.

I’d have made money on who would be the first poster to use the term ‘scatological’ on the rugby forum.

ElisaAtWar

Deleted User wrote: »

It is and it isn't. There are certain talents that always stand out regardless of team, setup or environment.

But there are also a lot of players who earn that moniker purely because they are surrounded with a high calibre of player and coaching, as opposed to being a genuine exception themselves.

The best year for Irish rugby to my mind was 2018, but there is an argument that we had more world class players in 2009. What we didn't have in 2009 was a coach with the gifts and vision of Schmidt, and a depth of squad like we have now.

Fitness, conditioning, coaching and rugby IQ all contribute to the standard of player a person is and these are rarely consistent over a career.

But do Ireland not generally punch far above our weight rather than below it?

We are two very different people Venjur. I don't feel blessed at all with Joe Schmidt or Andy Farrell. I believe both of these folks have dragged us to a nothingness. I believe our primary opposition has moved on, has made hay while we are unable to change.

And let's be clear, it's not about players. It's just the dead brained play and the insistence of same is better. It's not the players fault for following the instructions

Lost Ormond

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

We are two very different people Venjur. I don't feel blessed at all with Joe Schmidt or Andy Farrell. I believe both of these folks have dragged us to a nothingness. I believe our primary opposition has moved on, has made hay while we are unable to change.

And let's be clear, it's not about players. It's just the dead brained play and the insistence of same is better. It's not the players fault for following the instructions

Schmidt who got us to several firsts dragged us to nothingness?
To say we are unable to change is ridiculous when the head coach has had 9 games in charge.

ElisaAtWar

Festive Life wrote: »

Schmidt who got us to several firsts dragged us to nothingness?
To say we are unable to change is ridiculous when the head coach has had 9 games in charge.

We will get well beaten by england and france, and the wales or Scotland games aren't a given, but all is super fantastic in the state of Irish rugby. I'm so delighted to know this and I thank you for your reassurances

Thrashssacre

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

We will get well beaten by england and france, and the wales or Scotland games aren't a given, but all is super fantastic in the state of Irish rugby. I'm so delighted to know this and I thank you for your reassurances

We have england and France in the aviva the goal will be too win one of those games, Wales and Scotland are in quite a bad way and Italy are Italy, we could just as easily win this 6 nations. Why are you so intent on being negative?

ionadnapokot

IT today

The vast majority of the estimated 90 or so players out of contract across the four provinces at the end of the season have still to be resolved, amid an ongoing mixture of satisfaction and disappointment over the new deals which have been offered.

All contracts have been of one or two years’ duration, with the latter said to include covid-related clauses at the halfway stage. With the provincial budgets down by an estimated 10-15 per cent across the board, accordingly most contract offers have been reduced, with a few exceptions.

According to well-placed sources, the IRFU’s Performance Director David Nucifora has opened negotiations with the seven centrally contracted players whose deals are understood to be expiring next summer, Johnny Sexton, Cian Healy, Tadhg Furlong, Peter O’Mahony, CJ Stander, Keith Earls and Iain Henderson.

The expectation is that Furlong and Henderson, and possibly Stander, have been offered two-year extensions, with the others one-year contracts, for the moment at any rate. None are over the line yet, but some should be before the Six Nations starts.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/contract-future-still-unclear-for-many-of-ireland-s-rugby-pros-1.4468619

If i was PO'M and they offered only a 1 year extension I'd be off

The Inbetween is mine

The same article was published about 2 weeks ago... only difference now is they have made guesses at the names of players getting 1 or 2 year deals

thomond2006

Most players are not going to want to move country now. That's the reality and the IRFU will be very aware.

Rigor Mortis

ionadnapokot wrote: »

IT today

If i was PO'M and they offered only a 1 year extension I'd be off

If i were him i'd grab it with both hands on the basis that offers from overseas will be non existent for the next year.

I have to say though, i cant see P O'M being in the mix for 2023 world cup and I dont understand why we would centrally contract players who are not going to be in that squad. Same for Healy. Possibly Sexton.

The Inbetween is mine

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

If i were him i'd grab it with both hands on the basis that offers from overseas will be non existent for the next year.

I have to say though, i cant see P O'M being in the mix for 2023 world cup and I dont understand why we would centrally contract players who are not going to be in that squad. Same for Healy. Possibly Sexton.

He will be 33 years old...of course he'll be in the mix

Yeah_Right

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

We are two very different people Venjur. I don't feel blessed at all with Joe Schmidt or Andy Farrell. I believe both of these folks have dragged us to a nothingness. I believe our primary opposition has moved on, has made hay while we are unable to change.

And let's be clear, it's not about players. It's just the dead brained play and the insistence of same is better. It's not the players fault for following the instructions

Who do you think should be coaching now and who do you think should have been coaching instead of JS? And why?

Yeah_Right

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Given the current financial hardships that we are staring at, a).

Obviously, usually it would be b).

But we have no idea when we'll get crowds in again, we have no idea whether the Rainbow Cup will happen, players' and staff contracts are being squeezed badly. The time to experiment was in the autumn, when no prize money was at stake.

There's over a million euro difference in prize money between 1st and 3rd.

The financial side of it is what has me conflicted. Obviously the IRFU desperately needs money AND winning trophies is always good. But for the long term of seeing Ireland actually perform at RWC23 I wonder if improving the performance and establishing some fresh blood in the team is more important. Ideally both would happen but I was curious on other's feelings because I wasn't really happy with how the ABs went in the TriNations. Yes they won and there a couple of very good performances but there was also some rubbish.

dublin49

The small amount of Irish players currently being discussed as possible Lions starters is a good pointer to our current status in World Rugby.There is a natural order to our standing,above Scotland & Italy,level with Wales and below France and England.There is also a Kelly/Roche aspect to it as well where we get occasionally once in lifetime have players like Drico/O Connell or we get the Munster bounce of 2009 but generally we know our place and I am always amazed that some fans feel if only the coach would get his act together we would never lose a game.Farrell does not inspire the same confidence that Joe did so he probably will deliver on expectations as listed above and anything more is a bonus and he should be judged accordingly.In essence we lack flair players,have a decent panel of good internationals with the best of them coming to the end of their careers so a mediocre year is to be expected.

errlloyd

Hammer nail head I think.

Paul Smeenus

Yeah_Right wrote: »

The financial side of it is what has me conflicted. Obviously the IRFU desperately needs money AND winning trophies is always good. But for the long term of seeing Ireland actually perform at RWC23 I wonder if improving the performance and establishing some fresh blood in the team is more important. Ideally both would happen but I was curious on other's feelings because I wasn't really happy with how the ABs went in the TriNations. Yes they won and there a couple of very good performances but there was also some rubbish.

My own personal preference is for cold, hard cash. If you look at the various snippets from newspapers we're sharing, squads are being reduced, no-one's getting anything more than a two year contract, finances are at rock bottom. If we win with a team featuring Sexton, Healy, Earls etc, or players who are grand but clearly not the future such as Herring, for this Six Nations I'm fine with that.

If we come away with the Six Nations with buttons, the pressure is only going to increase, and yet more difficult decisions will have to be made.

There's a raft of recruitment and uncertainty off the pitch going on at the moment. Peter Malone is gone from the Munster Academy, Dwayne Peel is leaving Ulster, Kieran Campbell is becoming U20s coach, both Leinster and Ulster are looking for S&C staff for Academies - if a couple hundred thousand more in prize money makes some of those transitions smoother or enables the best talent to be hired in those positions, then it has justified a focus on silverware.

This is an absolutely unique situation. I often get frustrated with the cultural and managerial conservatism of Irish rugby, but you're mad if your concern at the moment isn't the successful day-to-day running of the IRFU, and not having to sacrifice too much on the altar of tighter budgets.

Honestly, I think this is the time for experience and looking at the "right here, right now", rather than worrying about the experience and top level exposure of our squad at a RWC two years away. If we don't get the current situation right, there will be new stresses and strains on that 2023 RWC squad that instead originate with financial woes.

Paul Smeenus

aloooof wrote: »

I’d have made money on who would be the first poster to use the term ‘scatological’ on the rugby forum.

It's actually the "concerns" that gets me.

thomond2006

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Who do you think should be coaching now and who do you think should have been coaching instead of JS? And why?

You're never going to get an answer so don't bother asking.