Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

sydthebeat

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

NZ have 5

Can we not go down this inferiority rabbit hole again, this is a large part of the reason we get knocked out in the QF every World Cup.

As said above, new Zealand has 14

Wales is the best comparison to Ireland.

UAEguy2020

b.gud wrote: »

I was going to make the same point but them realized that there is also the mitre 10 cup which is also fully professional and acts as a functioning feeder system to the 5 top level super rugby teams.

Compare to our AIL which is semi-pro at best and realistically have little or no pathway to the 4 senior teams

Using the Mitre 10 as an example is taking clutching at straws to a whole new level. If you aren’t good enough to get into a SR side it’s fair to say you won’t be good enough to play for NZL.

hahashake

Debatable whether Mitre 10 is fully pro as a significant % of players aren't full time professionals. Season is roughly 3 months, the players who don't get contracts at SR franchises or abroad will be back to local amateur clubs and/or work/study.

UAEguy2020

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

NZ have 5

Can we not go down this inferiority rabbit hole again, this is a large part of the reason we get knocked out in the QF every World Cup.

So we have the talent to put out an entirely new team like France did at the end of the Autumn Nations cup? Or do I have an inferiority complex

UAEguy2020

Mitre 10 cup...**** me on a stick, I can’t believe this is even a debate.

awec

Dual wheels wrote: »

Go to bed, burns couldn’t even hack it at bath never mind England, Byrne has the ability to be a world class 10, he needs to be developed, nothing to be gained from bringing in burns

I assume you mean the younger Byrne.

He'll get his chance with Ireland when he establishes himself at Leinster.

b.gud

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Using the Mitre 10 as an example is taking clutching at straws to a whole new level. If you aren’t good enough to get into a SR side it’s fair to say you won’t be good enough to play for NZL.

Try reading my post again, I'll wait

UAEguy2020

b.gud wrote: »

Try reading my post again, I'll wait

I did and the comparison is irrelevant as if you aren’t good enough to play for a province or a Super Rugby side how are you going to be good enough to play for your national team?

b.gud

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

I did and the comparison is irrelevant as if you aren’t good enough to play for a province or a Super Rugby side how are you going to be good enough to play for your national team?

OK I see you are still struggling with it, let me make it easier for you. Show me where in my post I said that Mitre 10 players would line out for the All Blacks

UAEguy2020

b.gud wrote: »

OK I see you are still struggling with it, let me make it easier for you. Show me where in my post I said that Mitre 10 players would line out for the All Blacks

What’s the point you are trying to make so? The overal point was that apparently NZL can totally mix and match their team by picking Mitre 10 cup players which has got to be the best example of straw clutching I’ve seen on this forum for quite awhile (and that’s saying something).

sydthebeat

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

What’s the point you are trying to make so? The overal point was that apparently NZL can totally mix and match their team by picking Mitre 10 cup players which has got to be the best example of straw clutching I’ve seen on this forum for quite awhile (and that’s saying something).

if you cant see the difference between having a lower tier of 14 professional teams feeding into 5 super rugby franchises....
and the single 4 provincial tier we have in ireland.. then theres no helping you.

are they the same and comparable?

no they are not... so its very disingenuous to try to equate them.

love how you totally brushed aside the comparisons with england and france as well.

the point is we essentially have 160 professional players to choose from.

england have about 1000, france more and new zealand about double what we have.

so dont be surprised if there is no sweeping changes to squad announcements as the alternatives are very few and far between.

UAEguy2020

sydthebeat wrote: »

if you cant see the difference between having a lower tier of 14 professional teams feeding into 5 super rugby franchises....
and the single 4 provincial tier we have in ireland.. then theres no helping you.

are they the same and comparable?

no they are not... so its very disingenuous to try to equate them.

love how you totally brushed aside the comparisons with england and france as well.

the point is we essentially have 160 professional players to choose from.

england have about 1000, france more and new zealand about double what we have.

so dont be surprised if there is no sweeping changes to squad announcements as the alternatives are very few and far between.

There is a difference, that’s not the point. If you can’t get into a SR side than you aren’t going to get into the NT so it’s a mute point trying to compare.

And again it’s a pointless comparison as how many of that double are in realistic contention. By simply playing for a mitre 10 cup team you are a professional player...

Another issue we have is we never give players a realistic chance to prove what they can do, take Ross Byrne he steps up and he basically has to be as good as Sexton straight off the bat otherwise he’s **** and shouldn’t be picked again, what ever happened to letting a player develop? NZL for instance play a player at 10 who had 5 Super Rugby appearances all season, that’s the difference right there in a nut shell. When you have a smaller population you need to make the most of your resources which we are horrendous at as if a player isn’t top class in his first outing he’s hooked and never seen again.

UAEguy2020

For example in the first 6N match when O’Toole comes off the bench an organic rugby culture (NZL) would allow him to settle into test rugby. We on the other hand will expect him to be as good as Porter or Furlong right off the bat otherwise he isn’t test standard and should be sent back to Ulster. Talk about the number of professional players while has some truth to it in terms of advantages completely ignores the main point because a good rugby culture will get every last drop out of their system and won’t find itself making excuses for mediocrity, if you are happy with mediocrity than it’s okay keep the excuses coming but if you want to be successful put the head down and focus on the controllable. You didn’t see us making these excuses in 2017/2018 and look where that got us that period.

b.gud

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

What’s the point you are trying to make so? The overal point was that apparently NZL can totally mix and match their team by picking Mitre 10 cup players which has got to be the best example of straw clutching I’ve seen on this forum for quite awhile (and that’s saying something).

You're right, that's exactly what I said. Thank you for pointing out the error of my ways I am forever grateful

Louis Friend

Amazing to hear people talking about dropping CJ Stander. He should be one of the first names on the teamsheet.

Larmour
Conway
Ringrose
Henshaw
Lowe
Sexton
Murray
Doris
Van der Flier
Stander
Ryan
Henderson
Furlong
Kelleher
Healy

The Inbetween is mine

Ah talk of dropping CJ arises every year...
remember when people said Conan would take his Ireland shirt...how we laughed!

sydthebeat

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

And again it’s a pointless comparison as how many of that double are in realistic contention.

you DO realise that inadvertently have come around to agreeing with the post that you originally quoted and disagreed with... dont you???

:D:D

Deleted User wrote: »

We have four professional clubs to choose from. England, France, NZ etc have dozens to choose form. We're never gonna be able to make wholesale changes like they can.

Must love hardship

Yeah.. let's pick stander again and aim to finished 3rd on the table like the last 2 years when he got bullied by the bigger teams..

That seems to work well

El_Duderino 09

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

Ah talk of dropping CJ arises every year...
remember when people said Conan would take his Ireland shirt...how we laughed!

Ah, this is silly. There was a time when CJ was on poor form and Conan was on great form. Conan should have been the starter back then. Now, CJ is on great form and Conan isn't. So CJ should play ahead of Conan.

This time last year, Murray was on poor form and Cooney was doing great. Cooney should have started. Murray's form has improved since then.

Why do people talk about it as thought dropping an established player means they are chopped up into tiny pieces, never to play again? It's not about picking one player over another and you can never change back. Form should be king.

Buer

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

Ah talk of dropping CJ arises every year...
remember when people said Conan would take his Ireland shirt...how we laughed!

I recall the discussion was generally more around how Conan and Stander should both be accommodated in the team. It was a fairly reasonable call too given how our flankers were performing, particularly in 2019. There were far more calls for POM to be dropped to accommodate Conan than Stander. That's what ultimately happened too. Unfortunately for Conan, it happened when he was out injured and Doris was the beneficiary.

People quickly forget that Conan started games in both the 2018 and 2019 6N (Stander benching for one of them) and also alongside Stander in Australia for the third test with Stander moving across. He was on the cusp of breaking into the team for a while but every time he got a game or two, his body broke down.

sydthebeat

Must love hardship wrote: »

Yeah.. let's pick stander again and aim to finished 3rd on the table like the last 2 years when he got bullied by the bigger teams..

That seems to work well

was CJ out on the pitch by himself??? no wonder he got "bullied"

:rolleyes:

UAEguy2020

sydthebeat wrote: »

you DO realise that inadvertently have come around to agreeing with the post that you originally quoted and disagreed with... dont you???

:D:D

Professional clubs = yes

To choose from = no

Hard to get? If you weren’t good enough to be picked for a super rugby team how would you be good enough for NZL?

Dual wheels

Why is there so much hatred towards Ross Byrne?
Anything to be said for bringing madigan back into the squad? I also think hanrahan deserves a shot at 10 for Ireland

sydthebeat

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Hard to get? If you weren’t good enough to be picked for a super rugby team how would you be good enough for NZL?

again

thats pretty much EXACTLY the point of the post that you originally quoted....

UAEguy2020

Dual wheels wrote: »

Why is there so much hatred towards Ross Byrne?
Anything to be said for bringing madigan back into the squad? I also think hanrahan deserves a shot at 10 for Ireland

Because he wasn’t a world class 10 in his first game...it’s not like his fellow player were terrible either or anything.

You could tell before the England match that Byrne had already been a pre determined scape goat.

UAEguy2020

sydthebeat wrote: »

again

thats pretty much EXACTLY the point of the post that you originally quoted....

It isn’t the point because NZL aren’t going to be picking players based on their Mitre 10 cup performances... there’s a difference between France and England picking players from the 12/14 team in their league and NZL picking players based on Mitre 10 cup performances.

sydthebeat

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

It isn’t the point because NZL aren’t going to be picking players based on their Mitre 10 cup performances... there’s a difference between France and England picking players from the 12/14 team in their league and NZL picking players based on Mitre 10 cup performances.

ah here, after this im out... but just go back and re-read the post which you originally quoted and try to understand what it means.

We have four professional clubs to choose from. England, France, NZ etc have dozens to choose form. We're never gonna be able to make wholesale changes like they can.

you are actually making the same bloody point

Lost Ormond

Dual wheels wrote: »

Why is there so much hatred towards Ross Byrne?
Anything to be said for bringing madigan back into the squad? I also think hanrahan deserves a shot at 10 for Ireland

I dont see hatred. Many just dont see him as a decent option against the best international sides. That isnt hatred.
I dont see benefits of bringing back a 31 year old in Madigan who hasnt played internationals in 5 years and when he was involved was never really thought of as anything other than back up

JJ Hanrahan in no way deserves a shot at 10. What at provincial level has he done to suggest he's able/good enough to step up.

Must love hardship

Festive Life wrote: »

I dont see hatred. Many just dont see him as a decent option against the best international sides. That isnt hatred.
I dont see benefits of bringing back a 31 year old in Madigan who hasnt played internationals in 5 years and when he was involved was never really thought of as anything other than back up

JJ Hanrahan in no way deserves a shot at 10. What at provincial level has he done to suggest he's able/good enough to step up.

Ross is only 25 with 10 or 11 caps. A couple of the starts have come against a dominant England team where dan Carter would have struggled behind a back peddling pack.

Open to correction but I dont think Johnny started a 6 nations match until he was nearly 25 in 2010.
I think Ross deserves another look. He has preformed very well at times at H Cup level while Johnny has been injured. Also is a reliable kicker.

Burns im not confident about. A year older than Ross byrne he's not the regular kicker for his club.

Healy and or h byrne are probably a year away. Both should get plenty of pro14 game time during the 6 nations and maybe joey might be back in the mix.

TRC10

Must love hardship wrote: »

Burns im not confident about. A year older than Ross byrne he's not the regular kicker for his club.

Burns has been excellent for Ulster for the last 2 seasons and outperformed R.Byrne for ireland in the Autumn. I'd say hes easily overtaken Byrne and hell almost certainly start some games in the 6 nations.