Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Clegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187309#Comment_122187309

But the next few weeks are a part of the provincial season so I've no idea what you're talking about now. Leinster have continually had the best players in Ireland and that has been rewarded with Ireland selection. But they cannot be selected week on week for rest and contractual reasons. Therefore rotation is a must.

You can slice things however you want, but provincial and test levels are entirely different when it comes to selection. If you don't accept that, that's fine. But it's reality. The players are brought in through the provinces and Farrell selects based off that. If they're especially good, they come in after a relative small amount of appearances.

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187388#Comment_122187388

So if provincials and test level are completely different then we have no idea if the players are not good enough until we try them

Except kleyn whos won a world cup final of coarse

Leinster have a core of players that are terrifying the front row for example is head and shoulders ahead of any other province. The likes of the byrnes, frawley, baird, larmor and so on are no better though the top 6 or so players being really special does not mean any player wearing blue is better

Clegg

It's poor form to cherry pick quotes and not give the full context to it. So I'll make the full post here.

[Quote]One thing I'd like to see over the next few weeks is greater variation in selection.

We have been too wedded to having specific 'units' that we select for certain games. We have a lot of good players that I think could flourish when surrounded by better players. I'd like to see a backrow of Baird/Penny/Doris. Or a Deegan/VDF/Doris. Or even a JGP and Prendergast/H Byrne.

A front row of Porter/Kelleher/Clarkson could do a lot of damage in the tight.[/Quote]

The specific units in question that I didn't want to see were the Deegan, Penny, Conan trio and the Healy, Kelleher, Ala'alatoa front row. Also the selection of Luke McGrath to partner any other 10. I was calling for a stronger selection policy than we've been wont to make after a big game. This entirely takes into account the differing selection policies between province and country and the argument that provinces develop these players which Farrell then decides to include in his team which I have also expanded upon. It's not moving the goalposts in the slightest. It's expanding an argument being made.

The players selected for Ireland are the best available and are chosen on merit.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187460#Comment_122187460

It's not cherrying picking to suggest that this…

We have been too wedded to having specific 'units' that we select for certain games. We have a lot of good players that I think could flourish when surrounded by better players. 

… could apply directly to Ireland over the last while. Given the weekend that's in it, will leave it at that..

Clegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187580#Comment_122187580

It entirely is cherry picking. I have repeatedly given the context for that post and provided the examples where Farrell has selected on merit, when he has dropped underperforming players, and how selection at provincial level and test level is not the same.

Leaving it at that is fine because it's going nowhere.

TRC10

One argument that's been made a lot is, guys from other provinces have gotten chances and not taken them. But the thing is, how many games did it take JGP to look remotely like a test level scrum half? How many error ridden performances was James Lowe afforded before he got his sh*t together? How many games were Ryan and Conan given to play their way back into form? How many times does Doris have to f*ck up in big games before someone else gets a shot at 8?

Yet, guys like Coombes and Baloucoune are given one or two games (most players don't even get that) and if they don't absolutely shoot the lights out, they're permanently discarded and labelled "not good enough".

sydthebeat

Far away hills......

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187654#Comment_122187654

Worst case scenario I can see is, we fail with a deeper squad, more representative of the quality we have in Ireland. As opposed to failing with a Leinster dominated squad, which is what we do currently.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187176#Comment_122187176

Embarrassing is missing the point that lads like Baird and Ahern, who're hybrid lock/ flankers are streets ahead of Kleyn at his very best.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187644#Comment_122187644

You do realise the coachs are watching the players daily at training? Coombes for instance has been given multiple chance. Bala as well but has gone backwards since the EI tour

Lowe started the 6 nations in 2021 and was dropped during that competition because of problems in defence, he returned in the AIs after resolving those issues as best he could.

In terms of Doris, how many times have he "f*ck up" so far with Ireland? a knock on in a game and you want to drop him?

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187763#Comment_122187763

Their better than ross byrne also but dont play the same position so its a silly comparison. Anyway world cup winner jean kleyns not good is your take good luck with that

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187781#Comment_122187781

Perhaps the coaches judged incorrectly in training

VayNiice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187807#Comment_122187807

Having a world cup medal does not mean kleyn is better than any of the Irish locks. Any championship squad can have a few scrubs in it - sure look at the munster lads we're stuck with.

Mod: Post warned.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187927#Comment_122187927

sure look at the munster lads we're stuck with.

Who, Crowley who looked superb and the best successor to Sexton in about 8 years or more, Beirne who’s been world class for about 5 seasons now and POM, the captain?

Those Munster lads were “stuck” with?

In any case, the flip side of this argument is that, just because Farrell didn’t pick him doesn’t mean he’s not as good / better than the other locks.

pickarooney

Beirne - he hasn't won any world cups, thereby under the law of Kleyn, he shouldn't be near an international squad. I don't understand how he's even allowed game time at his club with two World Cup winners, by all logic better than him, in the squad.

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188123#Comment_122188123

Having a world cup medal dosent mean kleyns the best lock in the world but it sure as **** means hes better than the jobber some paint him as. Rassie erasmus knows quite a lot about rugby.

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187927#Comment_122187927

Thank god for them heimlich experts to help a few of the other lads choking

Brief_Lives

so, Leinster lost. 🤐

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188175#Comment_122188175

and the sun rises every morning

VayNiice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188092#Comment_122188092

Oops I forgot to add in "obviously a **** joke" at the end!!

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187811#Comment_122187811

Ireland was number 1 in World for longest time for a NH team, have won back to back 6 nations

Seems like they are doing an ok job to me

phog

No one in the world with no RWC winners medal is like being ahead during a game but to lose the lead before the game ends.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187644#Comment_122187644

guys like Coombes and Baloucoune are given one or two games (most players don't even get that) and if they don't absolutely shoot the lights out, they're permanently discarded and labelled "not good enough"

Baloucoune is the perfect example of why this is all absolute nonsense.

I have been absolutely eviscerated on here for suggesting that Coombes hasn't been showing what the Irish coaches wanted him to.

But in the case of Baloucoune, we know this is the case because he told us himself. This is what he said this after he came home from the EI tour;

"I've just listened to what the coaches want from me, trying to get off my wing more and bring that into matches and training as much as possible."

"The biggest point [from the coaches] is just trying to get more involvements"

"Trying to get myself involved as much as possible throughout games and then just back my ability to beat a defender or use my speed in defence to catch players as well."

All of which is 100% consistent with how Farrell uses his wingers and why the back three is usually populated with guys like Keenan, Hansen, Lowe and JOB who can pop up anywhere. It's also 100% consistent with the speculation up to then as to why he wasn't getting games, but he got clear feedback from the coaches. So far, so good.

What happened after the EI tour? Well, in the next test match, against the Springboks in Dublin, Baloucoune is given the 14 jersey. Not a Wolfhounds game, not a meaningless filler match against Fiji or Georgia, a starting spot in a full-strength team against a full-strength SA.

So what do we know? We know he went on the EI tour to show what he could do, the coaches had given him specific things to work on and then they gave him a gilt-edged opportunity to show what he could do over 80 minutes in a real test match environment. Incidentally, Jimmy O'Brien came off the bench (in the centre) that day.

How did it go? Well, he was… quiet and two weeks later, Jimmy O'Brien was wearing 14 against Australia and he's been a fixture ever since, while Baloucoune hasn't featured in a single squad since then.

I don't think Baloucoune was jettisoned because of the SA game, he was jettisoned because of everything that led up to it, and because Ireland had a lot of other guys who could do what they wanted. With the arrival of Nash in 2024, he's further away than ever IMO.

Some guys take their chances and some don't. Some guys can do what is asked and some cannot. All the coach can do is tell the guy what he wants, give him a chance to show what he can do and if he can't, move on. That's just the way it is, and blaming the coach for that is a bit mental to be honest.

Farrell is so despised by a minority on here that I don't expect this to make an iota of difference, but Baloucoune is a shining example of why Farrell is a very good coach.

AdamD

I know we're in the process of binning off every Leinster player who lost the Champions Cup final in extra time, but, Larmour actually had a great game yesterday.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188436#Comment_122188436

Talk about an over reaction

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188347#Comment_122188347

I haven't suggested their not good coaches have i?

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188436#Comment_122188436

He did hes having a good season im general

Suggesting leisnter players maby shouldnt be 3 or 4 deep at positions in the national squad is not binning every leinster player its a massive ossue with the conversation there are a number of world class players nobodys ever disagreed with playing. Suggesting frawley shouldnt be automatically in squads is not a critique on porter

AdamD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188553#Comment_122188553

I mean it was slightly tongue in cheek, my main point is that Larmour played very well.

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188598#Comment_122188598

I agree he did

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188598#Comment_122188598

I think he played well - much better under the high ball than I expected, and that last ditch tackle was exceptional - but I still question him defending in regular phase play.

There was 2-3 times he looked completely lost at sea when there was a large openside, he was the edge defender and had to make reads / decisions. He got completely turned 360 a couple of times.

And I think it's fair to say he didn't offer as much in attack as he normally does.