Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

redmca2

CMcsporty wrote: »

Contigit quod deficit
Quod aliquis deficit
Qui aliquis deficit

He's gone to Sh!te!

Could you re-write in Greek please

lawrencesummers

molloyjh wrote: »

There is a fairly basic hierarchy to selection.

1. Training at your province.

2. Performing in regular P14 fixtures.

4. Performing in P14 derbies and KOs.

5. Performing in HEC games.

6. Performing in HEC KOs.

7. Performing at Ireland training.

8. Test matches against weaker sides.

9. Test matches against tier 1 sides.

Each of these things factor into how players progress. Performance at each level earns you a shot at the next level. And yes, credit in the bank factors in too. Showing an ability to step up to that level does matter. Doing it in the past does increase chances to do it again in future. Rob Kearney proved that pretty definitively.

Players going well in the P14 but not playing in HEC KO games will automatically be behind guys who are. For example when has Carty played in a game like a HEC SF and delivered? While it may not be his fault that he hasn't, he still hasn't. And those kinds of games are far closer to a 6Ns game than any P14 game is.

Joey carbery
Shane Daly
Hugo Keenan
Eric Osullivan

ElisaAtWar

molloyjh wrote: »

Some of the absolute garbage being posted on here lately is, well, as poor as it is unsurprising heading into the 6Ns. Schmidt apparently dragged us to nothingness. Yeah, nothing but 3 6Ns titles (including 1 GS) in his 6 years in charge. He won half the 6Ns Championships he was involved in. Ireland won more Championships under him than in the entire 30 years before he took over. In his 6 years in charge Ireland won 3 Championships, England won 2 and Wales won ther other 1. He led us to our first and only 2 wins over NZ. He led us to our only ever number 1 ranking. He led us to a tour victory in Australia for the first time in my lifetime. But the last year was bad so all those achievements count for nothing to some. Unbelievable garbage.

Oh and Farrell is only in the door and has made substantial changes during a year that was impossible to plan for. But just because he didn't deliver perfection when faced with a rejuvenated French side and a settled and powerful England side, he's getting grief as well. Perspective be damned.

The hyperbole is strong here at times. Very, very strong.

There are two types of people in life, the conservative and the progressive. And they will never meet eye to eye because they are fundamentally opposed.

Hands Like Flippers

Former Former Former wrote: »

Well, when a player is good enough, he won't need to be 'given a chance', he'll just be picked. That's how it works.

JOHH COONEY would no doubt respectfully disagree.

molloyjh

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

There are two types of people in life, the conservative and the progressive. And they will never meet eye to eye because they are fundamentally opposed.

Yeah, none of that is true.

CMcsporty

So CJ is off to France. Again!
'I spoke to a French agent last week and he was of the opinion that CJ was going to Bordeaux'

According to Jackman on the 42

Former Former Former

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

JOHH COONEY would no doubt respectfully disagree.

No, John Cooney is a perfect example of my point. He had his chances, he failed to take them, ultimately he's not good enough to move up a level. This is pro sport unfortunately.

Burkie1203

CMcsporty wrote: »

So CJ is off to France. Again!
'I spoke to a French agent last week and he was of the opinion that CJ was going to Bordeaux'

According to Jackman on the 42

agents are doing their job only this time around one or two players might actually leave

CMcsporty

Former Former Former wrote: »

No, John Cooney is a perfect example of my point. He had his chances, he failed to take them, ultimately he's not good enough to move up a level. This is pro sport unfortunately.

How many games has Cooney started for Ireland?

ElisaAtWar

molloyjh wrote: »

Yeah, none of that is true.

In fact that is the basis of everything. You look at this team and you feel ok while I feel stabbed in the heart. I don't wish for this team to fail but you put killer in there, you put Healy in there, you put furlong in there. What you are doing is just a wish. And I won't mention others who you wish will do well. But they won't. They have been injured forever but you place confidence in the names over the reality

molloyjh

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

In fact that is the basis of everything. You look at this team and you feel ok while I feel stabbed in the heart. I don't wish for this team to fail but you put killer in there, you put Healy in there, you put furlong in there. What you are doing is just a wish. And I won't mention others who you wish will do well. But they won't. They have been injured forever but you place confidence in the names over the reality

As I said, hyperbole everywhere. Not an ounce of perspective in sight.

ElisaAtWar

molloyjh wrote: »

As I said, hyperbole everywhere. Not an ounce of perspective in sight.

Let it play out. It seems you must witness it before you will accept it

Dubinusa

Problem is we've all seen the performance over the last 2 years. So those lads who were the spine of our awfully poor efforts, are still there. The incumbents are still there and that's the problem. I do think that if player A is centrally contracted and has "credit in the bank", he will be selected no matter what. Just an opinion. I think the aging profile of our team is detrimental. Aging in the spine and experience areas, Healy, Sexton, Murray and POM. I agree POM has been great recently and Murray has been better but, the performance of these lads over the last 2 years doesn't merit their inclusion in the team, imo. People say the someone has to take the shirt off them! But yet, no other lad is given the opportunity. I think it has to do with the central contracts. That's just my opinion. I maybe wrong. I just don't see the biggest earners not being included. Especially since the union hung their hats on these players.

Former Former Former

CMcsporty wrote: »

How many games has Cooney started for Ireland?

None of any importance.

How many squads has he been a part of? How many training sessions has he had to impress the coaches? Plenty. It's not just game time or starting jerseys that matter.

Cooney plays by the same rules as everyone else. You play well for your province, you get brought into the national squad, and then it's up to the player to make his case.

Some players succeed, some don't.

Edit: in contrast, Gibson-Park came into the squad for the first time in October and was given starts against Wales and England in November.

sydthebeat

molloyjh wrote: »

As I said, hyperbole everywhere. Not an ounce of perspective in sight.

Funny that another poster that was full of negative hyperbole hadn't posted in a while......

These posters just wallow in misery and hope for the "stopped clock" gotcha moment. I won't be wasting much effort on them

Niallof9

Nah, people are just tired of the same ol, same ol.

The six nations could be a train wreck. Wales first up. We can beat them, but if we lose huge pressure already.

And if its a poor tournament, we'll have the same lads saying...give it time, give it time and offering every excuse under the sun. Andy Farrell was part of one of our worst ever WC performances, he really needs to start offering something now.

Hopefully some of the lads can continue to kick on. But its the last tournament for a few of the players i would guess.

Don't worry i'll hold fire on any jousts but lets all just be honest on here.

Here's hoping we have an excellent tournament and AF proves the small minority of doubters like myself wrong. Cause otherwise with the shadow of Paulie over him, he's in trouble. With the pandemic and finances i'd say you could get even better and cheaper from within now. As a first time head coach he's still so much to prove.

sydthebeat

amazing how some people see a new coach 12 months into his career, after giving 11 new players their test debuts in that year... as some how the "same ol, same ol"


there is something that never changes... its not the irish rugby team though....

Niallof9

sydthebeat wrote: »

amazing how some people see a new coach 12 months into his career, after giving 11 new players their test debuts in that year... as some how the "same ol, same ol"


there is something that never changes... its not the irish rugby team though....

Or you could say its amazing how some see the continued selection of key players and and positions and non selection of players in form as "change".

Your continued refusal to accept this position of others is funny. I think the critics can accept the fact he is the first coach in a while to take greater risk and he had no choice to reward certain players like Doris. Why can't you accept we still have huge issues in key positions? 1,2, 9,10 and back three due to our inconsistent policies.

Like i said he wasted November. Now he can't make too many changes. Lets hope the punts he took were correct.

bennyl10

CMcsporty wrote: »

So CJ is off to France. Again!
'I spoke to a French agent last week and he was of the opinion that CJ was going to Bordeaux'

According to Jackman on the 42

'Again' when it didnt happen

It's agent spiel at silly season, would be shocked if it was anymore than that



"same old same old" = well the players i wanted didn't get in, the new caps aren't the new caps I like.

irrelevant nonsense

Niallof9

Well somebody is going to go most likely. Standers a key guy but i wonder due to the roots does he get the same marketing opportunities here. He'd be a massive loss to Munster, not so much for Ireland. He's been great in some matches, but does he do it enough against the top tier teams? Not a fan of POM but perhaps this is when the underlying issues of the whole debate come home to roost. Say You can only reward one with the golden contract...Cork born, home grown captain or the guy from George. For the IRFU i think its an easy answer. (i say this as a fan of the project player)

CMcsporty

Former Former Former wrote: »

None of any importance.

How many squads has he been a part of? How many training sessions has he had to impress the coaches? Plenty. It's not just game time or starting jerseys that matter.

Cooney plays by the same rules as everyone else. You play well for your province, you get brought into the national squad, and then it's up to the player to make his case.

Some players succeed, some don't.

Edit: in contrast, Gibson-Park came into the squad for the first time in October and was given starts against Wales and England in November.

Do you honestly believe that Murray deserved to be starting over Cooney v Scotland in 2020 6N?

If you also implicitly trust Andy Farrell always selects the correct squad and starting side then there is nothing to talk about!

I for one think he is an inexperienced head coach struggling at the hardest part of his job.
Selecting the side.

errlloyd

Niallof9 wrote: »

Well somebody is going to go most likely. Standers a key guy but i wonder due to the roots does he get the same marketing opportunities here.

He did just found a BBQ importing company here.

bilston

Niallof9 wrote: »

Nah, people are just tired of the same ol, same ol.

The six nations could be a train wreck. Wales first up. We can beat them, but if we lose huge pressure already.

And if its a poor tournament, we'll have the same lads saying...give it time, give it time and offering every excuse under the sun. Andy Farrell was part of one of our worst ever WC performances, he really needs to start offering something now.

Hopefully some of the lads can continue to kick on. But its the last tournament for a few of the players i would guess.

Don't worry i'll hold fire on any jousts but lets all just be honest on here.

Here's hoping we have an excellent tournament and AF proves the small minority of doubters like myself wrong. Cause otherwise with the shadow of Paulie over him, he's in trouble. With the pandemic and finances i'd say you could get even better and cheaper from within now. As a first time head coach he's still so much to prove.

I thibk most people have said let's see how the 6Ns go before making judgements on Farrell.

But the issue here is that some people, myself included, don't think things have been bad under Farrell.

Niallof9

CMcsporty wrote: »

Do you honestly believe that Murray deserved to be starting over Cooney v Scotland in 2020 6N?

If you also implicitly trust Andy Farrell always selects the correct squad and starting side then there is nothing to talk about!

I for one think he is an inexperienced head coach struggling at the hardest part of his job.
Selecting the side.

You're right. But seriously, you won't get anywhere with this. Don't worry in the real World there's plenty of people who agree with you, myself included. There's posters on here who believe form is irrelevant. They continued this line even when Joe Schmidt specifically mentioned form etc. The idea that its all about Cooney coming in impressing etc is just nonsense. For whatever reason (contracts, pecking orders, luck) his face doesn't fit. Just like McCloskey, Dillane etc. Doesn't matter if they're in the squad etc these guys aren't used.

AF is hugely inexperienced as a head coach and he was involved in our worst ever WC. These are facts.

I'd cut him some slack if he just had the balls to say, you know what as well as rewarding Casey i'll also take Hume, Baird, Lowry and Coombes. I just don;t get his selection policy at times, its baffling and inconsistent. A wrong decision is better than indecision. And his failure to reward players that will make up our squad in 12 months anyhow, is indecision imo, particularly when he had a complete free shot in November.

aloooof

This is going to go well....

Paul Smeenus

Olding? That would show some brass balls.

Niallof9

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Olding? That would show some brass balls.

ha crap sorry i meant Lowry!

Anyway look it is what it is. Here's hoping we smash Wales. If we get a few lads embedded into the squad and beat either france or England and the rest it will be an excellent tournament.

Its a game of inches and its one of the toughest, most physical tournaments in rugby.

I just think he's going to have start sometime with the changing of the guard in 1 and 10. You'd probably have to see Burns get gametime in at least two of the matches.

As a headcoach the pandemic has played a part and yeah it hasn't been terrible. But it hasn't been great either. For me as i said before the issue was mainly with November. It was a complete waste. Also he was a major influence in Japan, and that didn;t work out. Lets not pretend that he's just a blow in last year. He's never been a head coach before and i think learning on the job shouldn't be the remit of the Irish Rugby coach these days. Throw in Catt and a panic signing in POC (as much of a legend as he was) and its all looking amit of a mess.

sydthebeat

bilston wrote: »

I thibk most people have said let's see how the 6Ns go before making judgements on Farrell.

But the issue here is that some people, myself included, don't think things have been bad under Farrell.

me too.... but i will caveat that by saying some things could have been better

the lack of forward cohesion both in set piece and attack were such that many were asking who exactly was responsible for it in camp. There didnt actually seem to be a dedicated lineout coach. With the intro of paulie, whos credentials in that area are unquestioned, then hopefully we will see better outcomes both in attacking mauls and defensive lineouts.

They way we want to play is changing significantly as well.. we are trying to break away from the tight, power play, ruck orientated possession style of Joe to a more fluid expansive style... but clearly that needs a long time to bed in. Rush defences have caused us all kinds of trouble in the last couple of years and i dont see that changing without a realistic second pivot in either 12 or 15 to jack knife around the up and in. Im very interested to see what we try to do this year against England in particular.

Podge_irl

Farrell was involved in our worst ever World Cup only in the the sense that he happened to be playing for another team during it.

Podge_irl

CMcsporty wrote: »

I for one think he is an inexperienced head coach struggling at the hardest part of his job.
Selecting the side.

Selecting the side is far from the hardest part of a coach's job, its just the most visible to us.