Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

errlloyd

There is a 98% chance that the loosehead who starts our first game in the 2023 rugby world cup is not in this squad.

yerrahbah

I think we need to stop this idea that squads are picked "on form"

Furlong hasn't played this season
Kilcoyne has played 55 mins this season
Conway has played 74 mins since the 13th of November and was pretty poor in that game
Aki hasn't played much recently
When did Lowe last play?

Cooney was ripping apart the Champions Cup last season and his reward was a 5min cameo off the bench behind Murray who at the time was not at his best

Paul Smeenus

yerrahbah wrote: »

I think we need to stop this idea that squads are picked "on form"

Furlong hasn't played this season
Kilcoyne has played 55 mins this season
Conway has played 74 mins since the 13th of November and was pretty poor in that game
Aki hasn't played much recently
When did Lowe last play?

Cooney was ripping apart the Champions Cup last season and his reward was a 5min cameo off the bench behind Murray who at the time was not at his best

Henderson hasn't played since he got injured in the Autumn internationals. Nether he nor Furlong has played any club rugby since their last international cap, and now they're lining out again for Ireland. That it has been a year for Furlong is staggering.

I think the way Farrell has put together this squad is pretty concerning.

El_Duderino 09

yerrahbah wrote: »

I think we need to stop this idea that squads are picked "on form"

Furlong hasn't played this season
Kilcoyne has played 55 mins this season
Conway has played 74 mins since the 13th of November and was pretty poor in that game
Aki hasn't played much recently
When did Lowe last play?

Cooney was ripping apart the Champions Cup last season and his reward was a 5min cameo off the bench behind Murray who at the time was not at his best

I think teams should be picked on form. I don't think they necessarily are pickled on form at all.

I think Lowe played two games in the autumn internationals and got injured in the second game. But i agree about furlong. He should be playing or Leinster this weekend if he's fit to do so.

But I would say that absence of form isn't the same as being on poor form. It's worth trying Furlong now to see where his form is because they don't have an abundance of THs on great form who deserve to play instead of him.

Former Former Former

yerrahbah wrote: »

I think we need to stop this idea that squads are picked "on form"

Nor should they be.

It should always be a mix of form, experience and proven quality.

TomsOnTheRoof

Backrow stats for the game on Sat. Courtesy of Leinster Rugby.

Ruddock: M:8 C:14 P:1 T:19 TO: 0

Connors: M:14 C:10 P:2 T:8 TO: 0

Doris: M:20 C:12 P:3 T:16 TO: 0

Coombes: M: 14 C: 12 P: 2 T: 11 TO: 0

POM: M: 21 C: 11 P: 2 T: 13 TO: 1

Stander: M: 11 C: 15 P: 5 T: 14 TO: 0

Given Coombes' form this season he can feel hard done by. Squad definitely has a feeling of already having been picked. The less said about the loosehead situation the better.

ionadnapokot

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Henderson hasn't played since he got injured in the Autumn internationals. Nether he nor Furlong has played any club rugby since their last international cap, and now they're lining out again for Ireland. That it has been a year for Furlong is staggering.

I think the way Farrell has put together this squad is pretty concerning.

It's not just this squad i have an issue with.

That Autumn cup selection set the alarm bells going.
Sexton & Healy had no business whatsoever playing in that tournament.

The whole form selection has been a joke under Farrell.
e.g. His very first game Murray over Cooney in 2019 6N.

leakyboots

Pity for Coombes, his time will come. You'd think he may be first cab off the rank in the event of a withdrawal for injury in the back row. I know Ruddock is loved by the blue majority on here but he doesn't do it for me internationally. Having a great season though form-wise so can't begrudge him his slot, we've so many options there.

yerrahbah

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

Backrow stats for the game on Sat. Courtesy of Leinster Rugby.

Ruddock: M:8 C:14 P:1 T:19 TO: 0

Connors: M:14 C:10 P:2 T:8 TO: 0

Doris: M:20 C:12 P:3 T:16 TO: 0

Coombes: M: 14 C: 12 P: 2 T: 11 TO: 0

POM: M: 21 C: 11 P: 2 T: 13 TO: 1

Stander: M: 11 C: 15 P: 5 T: 14 TO: 0

Given Coombes' form this season he can feel hard done by. Squad definitely has a feeling of already having been picked. The less said about the loosehead situation the better.

Stander made the most passes out of any backrow.

We need to train backrows to be more like CJ and be more expansive and less predictable with the ball.

TRC10

Only having 2 looseheads in the squad in Healy (33) and Kilcoyne (32) is pure insanity. One of them has been absolutely awful for months and the other has barely played since last February.

aloooof

yerrahbah wrote: »

Stander made the most passes out of any backrow.

We need to train backrows to be more like CJ and be more expansive and less predictable with the ball.

And POM the most metres off the 2nd fewest carries. We could do with a few more like that to grind out the hard yards.

leakyboots

yerrahbah wrote: »

Stander made the most passes out of any backrow.

We need to train backrows to be more like CJ and be more expansive and less predictable with the ball.

I've never understood this narrative on here that CJ doesn't pass. He does, he mightn't throw 15 yarders to put guys clear but he regularly acts as link man, has been used as a latch in setpiece moves also. POM is arguably the best passer of any backrow in Ireland, has great hands in tight spaces especially.


I think the CJ-POM-Doris backrow has a nice balance to it at the moment as a good mix of grunt and skills

Must love hardship

Personally I'd have o'sullivan in a squad of 37. Strange decision again to only pick 5 props.

Second row. Baird playing in the A game must have been a red flag that he wasn't going to be picked v munster at the weekend so hardly going to be picked for ireland.

Back row. Bit of a toss up between Connors and Coombes. Arguments could have been made for either or both.

Half backs. Park is a strange selection. Never been a regular starter for leinster. Mcgrath in very good form. Casey is worth a look for his potential...Arguments could have been made for others. Strong arguments.. If they brought in casey and argument could be made for bringing in healy or h byrne too.. for me if burns was an int standard 10 he'd a wearing a white Jersey in the 6 nations.

Centres. No major surprises. Hume could have been brought in maybe for aki or mclusky.

Back 3. With stockdale out cant be too many arguments. Lowe and Conway won't have played a lot lately.

While good to have 2 new names in the squad. 5 or 6 lads picked haven't played in a number of weeks or even months. Hardly form selections...

You'd worry that a few of these selections could force the hand of a few players with future contracts..
If they are not being picked under farrell might it influence their decision to go overseas...

Also farrell seems intent on picking overseas imports over irish potential. Apart from bedhlam missing out to o'toole cases could be made to leave out plenty of imports over players who came through the irish system.

Imagine the lift the rugby club in skibeeren would have gotten if Coombes was selected..

Instead we have Herring in the front row.
Quin roux in the second
Stander in the back row
Park at 9
Burns 10
Bundi Centre
Lowe back 3

All decent club players and i don't have any problem with them making a living here playing club rugby..

But I doubt any grew up dreaming of playing for ireland or would inspire future kids in Nz or whereever to want to aspire to play for ireland in the future...

leakyboots

I'd say the likes of Lowe, Stander and Aki inspire plenty of youngsters in their province to pick up a ball. Can only speak about CJ as a Munster fan but he's very popular. Aki is the big draw player in Connacht.

Shelflife

Former Former Former wrote: »

If you expected Sexton to be omitted completely, then that's on you. There was never any prospect of that.

And then in the next breath, you're complaining about a new SH coming in?

Didnt really expect it tbh, but if we are serious about the next WC then we have to be sorting out a pretty pivotal role in the team. Sextons form is no better than any of the other OHs but he will start most of the games.

As regards the SHs, we have one experienced and then one with 5 caps and one uncapped, neither of them starting for their provinces in the games that matter, its a big drop from Murray to total novice.

Lost Ormond

Must love hardship wrote: »

Personally I'd have o'sullivan in a squad of 37. Strange decision again to only pick 5 props.

Second row. Baird playing in the A game must have been a red flag that he wasn't going to be picked v munster at the weekend so hardly going to be picked for ireland.

Back row. Bit of a toss up between Connors and Coombes. Arguments could have been made for either or both.

Half backs. Park is a strange selection. Never been a regular starter for leinster. Mcgrath in very good form. Casey is worth a look for his potential...Arguments could have been made for others. Strong arguments.. If they brought in casey and argument could be made for bringing in healy or h byrne too.. for me if burns was an int standard 10 he'd a wearing a white Jersey in the 6 nations.

Centres. No major surprises. Hume could have been brought in maybe for aki or mclusky.

Back 3. With stockdale out cant be too many arguments. Lowe and Conway won't have played a lot lately.

While good to have 2 new names in the squad. 5 or 6 lads picked haven't played in a number of weeks or even months. Hardly form selections...

You'd worry that a few of these selections could force the hand of a few players with future contracts..
If they are not being picked under farrell might it influence their decision to go overseas...

Also farrell seems intent on picking overseas imports over irish potential. Apart from bedhlam missing out to o'toole cases could be made to leave out plenty of imports over players who came through the irish system.

Imagine the lift the rugby club in skibeeren would have gotten if Coombes was selected..

Instead we have Herring in the front row.
Quin roux in the second
Stander in the back row
Park at 9
Burns 10
Bundi Centre
Lowe back 3

All decent club players and i don't have any problem with them making a living here playing club rugby..

But I doubt any grew up dreaming of playing for ireland or would inspire future kids in Nz or whereever to want to aspire to play for ireland in the future...

You cant put Burns in with any of the others.. Burns qualifies through granny rule. And not sure this is right place for this kind discussion...
Bundee and CJ certainly have helped build lot of interest in their provinces....
Would agree with you about picking O Sullivan

For Wales then I'm going with:

Healy
Kelleher
Porter
Beirne
Ryan
Stander
POM
Doris
Murray
Sexton
Larmour
Aki
Ringrose
Lowe
He-Shaw

Herring
Kilcoyne
Furlong
Henderson
Connors
Gibson-Park
Burns
Earls

I don't think Farrell would go with He-Shaw at fullback, suspect he'll start at 12 with Keenan at fullback. Could see Aki maybe getting the 23 jersey in that scenario just to have best players in the 23.

yerrahbah

leakyboots wrote: »

I've never understood this narrative on here that CJ doesn't pass. He does, he mightn't throw 15 yarders to put guys clear but he regularly acts as link man, has been used as a latch in setpiece moves also. POM is arguably the best passer of any backrow in Ireland, has great hands in tight spaces especially.


I think the CJ-POM-Doris backrow has a nice balance to it at the moment as a good mix of grunt and skills

I know Drico has been quite vocal in the past about Stander not passing.

But his assertion doesn't stand up to scrutiny

Former Former Former

Shelflife wrote: »

Didnt really expect it tbh, but if we are serious about the next WC then we have to be sorting out a pretty pivotal role in the team. Sextons form is no better than any of the other OHs but he will start most of the games.

As regards the SHs, we have one experienced and then one with 5 caps and one uncapped, neither of them starting for their provinces in the games that matter, its a big drop from Murray to total novice.

So what's the solution? We've had guys like Cooney, McGrath and Marmion hanging around for yonks and none of them have made the step up. What makes you think this is the time they're going to do it? They won't, let's move on.

JGP and McGrath share the starts in the big games. I don't think it's clear who is first choice but I don't think it really matters here tbh. And if we're serious about building for the next RWC, then we need young guys with potential like Casey at least in the squad.

At out-half, well, there's Sexton and the next two best options. If they can overtake him, then they will. Farrell isn't blind to Sexton's issues and he's not going to keep picking him when there are better options available. Right now though, there aren't.

OneLungDavy

Deleted User wrote: »

For Wales then I'm going with:

Healy
Kelleher
Porter
Beirne
Ryan
Stander
POM
Doris
Murray
Sexton
Larmour
Aki
Ringrose
Lowe
He-Shaw

Herring
Kilcoyne
Furlong
Henderson
Connors
Gibson-Park
Burns
Earls

I don't think Farrell would go with He-Shaw at fullback, suspect he'll start at 12 with Keenan at fullback. Could see Aki maybe getting the 23 jersey in that scenario just to have best players in the 23.

He-Shaw?

Dubinusa

Extraordinary some of these selections! I think Farrell has made some mistakes here. The selection of Furlong is strange imo. He hasn't suited up in months. I think he should have been left with Leinster and gotten some match time first. Bealham cast aside and he's played all year! I am happy to see T.O.T get called up. He is developing nicely and could be a mainstay for the coming years.
Healy and Kilcoyne ? Kilcoyne has next to no match fitness and Healy is average at best. O'Sullivan should have been selected, imo. I was expecting to see him picked. Very surprised.
Our depth at hooker is alarming. Herring is solid, but Heffernan has struggled and Kelleher has problems at the line out.
Locks are as expected.
Ruddock is very deserving but not one for the future. Coombes very unlucky.
Delighted for Casey. Totally at a loss as to why Cooney wasn't selected. JGP is ok, I suppose. He's no better than Luke. Marmion or Blade.
No Carty! I reckon Burns is currently Sextons back up. I agree with this selection. I think Burns can do the job and we won't lose to much. RB has got to make the most of any opportunity. He's not shown much at this level.
How was Conway and Lowe selected? No match time in months! I reckon Earls is a lock to start v Wales. Larmour too, with little match time in recent months.
Dave Kearney deserved a call up. He's not going to be around at the next world cup but, he's been in great form. Conway and Lowe have no form!
All in all, not what I expected. I think some lads who are deserving were overlooked. They must be gutted.
Healy has very little left in the tank and I think the curtain is closing on his career. Kilcoyne is not far behind him. Why not include EOS? The 6nations is a proving ground. I think it's a missed opportunity. The omission of Coombes is strange too. Connors is extremely lucky to be included also. He is a good player, but I think he's reached his ceiling! Although, he is extremely good for depth. Not surprising that Leavy isn't included. He's not back to full form.
I reckon we can win 3 matches and finish middle of the table. I doubt we can beat England or France.

Buer

Furlong is one of the few proven world class operators we have and is around his peak years. If he even gets back to 70% in the next month, he's comfortably ahead of all other options not included.

It would be absolute madness if he wasn't included in the squad in a position where we're relatively short.

I mean, who on earth else is he going to pick ahead of Furlong? Bealham is probably the most hard done by and he's a solid squad player for Ireland and nothing more.

Former Former Former

Buer wrote: »

Furlong is one of the few proven world class operators we have and is around his peak years. If he even gets back to 70% in the next month, he's comfortably ahead of all other options not included.

It would be absolute madness if he wasn't included in the squad in a position where we're relatively short.

I mean, who on earth else is he going to pick ahead of Furlong? Bealham is probably the most hard done by and he's a solid squad player for Ireland and nothing more.

And Bealham lost out to O'Toole, not to Furlong.

There are very few players who are genuinely hard done by here, if any.

Jump_In_Jack

Backs (17):
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 87
Jamison Gibson-Park (Leinster) 5
Craig Casey (Shannon/Munster) *

Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary’s College/Leinster) (capt) 95
Billy Burns (Ulster) 3
Ross Byrne (UCD/Leinster) 11

Bundee Aki (Galwegians/Connacht) 30
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Leinster) 47
Stuart McCloskey (Bangor/Ulster) 4

Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster) 30
Chris Farrell (Young Munster/Munster) 14

James Lowe (Leinster) 2
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 88
Jordan Larmour (St. Mary’s College/Leinster) 24
Andrew Conway (Garryowen/Munster) 24
Shane Daly (Cork Constitution/Munster) 1

Hugo Keenan (UCD/Leinster) 6

Forwards (19):
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 104
Dave Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster) 39

Rob Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 16
Ronan Kelleher (Lansdowne/Leinster) 6
Dave Heffernan (Buccaneers/Connacht) 5

Andrew Porter (UCD/Leinster) 32
Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster) 25
Tom O’Toole (Banbridge/Ulster) *

James Ryan (UCD/Leinster) 32
Tadhg Beirne (Lansdowne/Munster) 17
Iain Henderson (Academy/Ulster) 58
Quinn Roux (Galwegians/Connacht) 16
Ultan Dillane (Galway Corinthians/Connacht) 17

Rhys Ruddock (St. Mary’s College/Leinster) 26

Peter O’Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 73
Will Connors (UCD/Leinster) 5
Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster) 28

Caelan Doris (St. Mary’s College/Leinster) 7
CJ Stander (Shannon/Munster) 46

briandebum

Former Former Former wrote: »

And Bealham lost out to O'Toole, not to Furlong.

There are very few players who are genuinely hard done by here, if any.

Nonsense, I would say Blade, Carty, O'Sullivan & Coombes can all feel hard done by.

Another poor selection by Farrell I would say. I think we probably lose to England and France regardless of who we pick so why not give the above players a chance to show if they can play on the international stage.

That's without bringing up the decision to pick 32 & 33 year old looseheads two years out from a world cup.

mfceiling

Former Former Former wrote: »

So what's the solution? We've had guys like Cooney, McGrath and Marmion hanging around for yonks and none of them have made the step up. What makes you think this is the time they're going to do it? They won't, let's move on.

I don't buy this and never did.

Here's a game against the weakest of the November teams and you can have the last 6 minutes against Scotland.

You haven't made the step up....your rival hasn't played well for 12 - 18 months but could turn it around in the next game...or the one after that...or the one after that.
Meanwhile you tear it up for your province and who knows you might sneak a whole 15 minutes against Wales or France.

UAEguy2020

briandebum wrote: »

Nonsense, I would say Blade, Carty, O'Sullivan & Coombes can all feel hard done by.

Another poor selection by Farrell I would say. I think we probably lose to England and France regardless of who we pick so why not give the above players a chance to show if they can play on the international stage.

That's without bringing up the decision to pick 32 & 33 year old looseheads two years out from a world cup.

Because we need to win...the new players will learn nothing playing in a dysfunctional team and if anything it will damage their confidence even more.

UAEguy2020

Dubinusa wrote: »

Extraordinary some of these selections! I think Farrell has made some mistakes here. The selection of Furlong is strange imo. He hasn't suited up in months. I think he should have been left with Leinster and gotten some match time first. Bealham cast aside and he's played all year! I am happy to see T.O.T get called up. He is developing nicely and could be a mainstay for the coming years.
Healy and Kilcoyne ? Kilcoyne has next to no match fitness and Healy is average at best. O'Sullivan should have been selected, imo. I was expecting to see him picked. Very surprised.
Our depth at hooker is alarming. Herring is solid, but Heffernan has struggled and Kelleher has problems at the line out.
Locks are as expected.
Ruddock is very deserving but not one for the future. Coombes very unlucky.
Delighted for Casey. Totally at a loss as to why Cooney wasn't selected. JGP is ok, I suppose. He's no better than Luke. Marmion or Blade.
No Carty! I reckon Burns is currently Sextons back up. I agree with this selection. I think Burns can do the job and we won't lose to much. RB has got to make the most of any opportunity. He's not shown much at this level.
How was Conway and Lowe selected? No match time in months! I reckon Earls is a lock to start v Wales. Larmour too, with little match time in recent months.
Dave Kearney deserved a call up. He's not going to be around at the next world cup but, he's been in great form. Conway and Lowe have no form!
All in all, not what I expected. I think some lads who are deserving were overlooked. They must be gutted.
Healy has very little left in the tank and I think the curtain is closing on his career. Kilcoyne is not far behind him. Why not include EOS? The 6nations is a proving ground. I think it's a missed opportunity. The omission of Coombes is strange too. Connors is extremely lucky to be included also. He is a good player, but I think he's reached his ceiling! Although, he is extremely good for depth. Not surprising that Leavy isn't included. He's not back to full form.
I reckon we can win 3 matches and finish middle of the table. I doubt we can beat England or France.

When we say that basically all our hookers have problems at the lineout dare I say maybe based on law of averages that the hooker isn’t exactly the main problem? Our lineout in Paris and Twickenham is not good enough for a professional rugby team and those problems go far deeper than just 1 player.

TomsOnTheRoof

mfceiling wrote: »

I don't buy this and never did.

Here's a game against the weakest of the November teams and you can have the last 6 minutes against Scotland.

You haven't made the step up....your rival hasn't played well for 12 - 18 months but could turn it around in the next game...or the one after that...or the one after that.
Meanwhile you tear it up for your province and who knows you might sneak a whole 15 minutes against Wales or France.

Agreed. Marmion played an excellent game against NZ in 2018 and was subsequently dropped. On the other hand someone like Ross Byrne continues to be selected despite the fact that he has had numerous opportunities and not taken them. Blade and Cooney have not been given any room to demonstrate their abilities. I'm not griping over the selection of Casey and Murray, just highlighting the inherent unfairness of it all.

Additionally, Coombes can feel very hard done by. There may be a lot of competition in the back row but his performances this season, including last Saturday, merited a place within the wider squad. There is plenty of competition amongst the back three but that didn't prevent Keenan getting capped, so the excuse of inexperience or that he hasn't been properly tested or that there is too much competition doesn't hold up. There is definitely an element of it being easier to get selected if you play in blue and it frustrates people no end.

Dubinusa

I suppose Farrell wants to stay with the "tried and tested". But the experience factor hasn't made an iota of difference these last 2 seasons.
Our focus should be on the future. I don't think wholesale changes are needed. Incremental would be fine.
EOS playing in the 6nations would imo, get up the experience needed. There's nothing to learn with Kilcoyne and Healy.
POM and Ruddock will not be at the next world cup so, why not bring in Coombes? I would have liked to see a back row of Coombes
VDF
Doris.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained. On form alone the b/r should be Ruddock/ POM and Doris.
While I think that Murray has been better, still believe Cooney has been better.