Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

irishbucsfan

Leinster have had some excellent performances with Byrne at 10, even when the pack is under pressure. He absolutely has the potential to make the step up but he's not there yet, I'm not certain he'll be the long-term option at Leinster either but plenty of other 10s have had weaknesses and ended up developing them out of their game (Sexton being a great example of that). Best case scenario, the competition with his brother could end up pushing them both to a very high level.

Wouldn't be surprised at all if he remains second choice this year.

Louis Friend

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Leinster have had some excellent performances with Byrne at 10, even when the pack is under pressure. He absolutely has the potential to make the step up but he's not there yet, I'm not certain he'll be the long-term option at Leinster either but plenty of other 10s have had weaknesses and ended up developing them out of their game (Sexton being a great example of that). Best case scenario, the competition with his brother could end up pushing them both to a very high level.

Wouldn't be surprised at all if he remains second choice this year.

He’s nearly 26...a bit long in the tooth for us to be talking about “potential”

Former Former Former

In fairness to Byrne, he's played all his games between August 2019 and November 2020, when Ireland have been absolutely crap. If you judged Johnny Sexton on his performances in that same period, you'd wonder what all the fuss was.

So I think Byrne is better than his showings in green, but still not of the required quality.

irishbucsfan

Louis Friend wrote: »

He’s nearly 26...a bit long in the tooth for us to be talking about “potential”

Yes he's 25, on his death bed

molloyjh

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

The point is he looks grand for Leinster, but doesn't seem to be able to make the step up.

And the logical conclusion drawn - and it is the simplest explanation - is that he can't perform if he's not behind a pack riding roughshod over the opposition.

Another conclusion could be that Byrne is good at lower levels where he has more time on the ball. At the higher levels, where he has less time on the ball, he struggles more. So for most provincial games he is completely fine, but get to true Test level and he simply can't transfer that ability across. Which can easily happen.

Paul Smeenus

molloyjh wrote: »

Another conclusion could be that Byrne is good at lower levels where he has more time on the ball. At the higher levels, where he has less time on the ball, he struggles more. So for most provincial games he is completely fine, but get to true Test level and he simply can't transfer that ability across. Which can easily happen.

Aye, fair enough.

Richie_Rich89

Most impactful bench possible?

16. Dan Sheehan?
17. David Kilcoyne
18. Andrew Porter
19. Ryan Baird
20. Gavin Coombes
21. Craig Casey?
22. Harry Byrne?
23. ?

Dubinusa

It's hard to gauge the 10's. Ireland haven't dominated and good sides in a while. So, the 10 depends on good fast ball? But, if the pack don't perform and the 9 is slow, then any 10 will struggle. Imo

Our options are limited. But I think Burns is the best bet atm. Of course, the 9 would be paramount to him as will the pack. So, I think Blade is worth a look at 9. Murray is too slow and ponderous. Experience doesn't count if your bang average. I think a faster paced 9 would be a huge boost.

I think Murray will retain the shirt, but Cooney, Blade and JGP are on his heels.

Richie_Rich89

Dubinusa wrote: »

Toner? He's just about done.

Maybe Thornbury then. I think they need to place greater emphasis on having an imposing lineout operator in there.

Ahern is possibly the long term answer. Is he commanding in the lineout? I didn't catch too many of the Ireland U20 games he played in. He has the height anyway.

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/IrishTimesSport/status/1346182496463900672?s=19

Richie_Rich89

Ross Byrne needs to come on to the ball more and have some tricks up his sleeve so defenders can't drift off him. He should go over to Australia and get David Knox to coach him for a few weeks during the summer.

Bazzo

Former Former Former wrote: »

In fairness to Byrne, he's played all his games between August 2019 and November 2020, when Ireland have been absolutely crap. If you judged Johnny Sexton on his performances in that same period, you'd wonder what all the fuss was.

So I think Byrne is better than his showings in green, but still not of the required quality.

Carty has the same excuse to be fair.

UAEguy2020

It would help if we gave our new 10s time to find their feet in the team and not expect them to be as good as Sexton with the drop of a hat. Infact, if any of our other 10s played like Sexton has actually played since 2018 we would be saying they aren’t the answer, yet Sexton gets a free pass...

Dubinusa

The problems are noticeable. Loose head being one. I reckon Kilcoyne will get the jersey if he returns to form. Hopefully, EOS gets meaningful minutes. Healy is also going to be in the mix. I think EOS getting a shot right now will get us someone to build upon. Kilcoyne is 32 and Healy is approaching 34. We can hope the Wycherly makes strides too.

Hooker has been awful. There's no other way to describe it. Painful attempts at the line out and a lot of the blame must go to the hookers. Herring is the best of a mediocre bunch. I would think Kelleher will improve but, right now I think he's not at the standard required. At least the basics.

Back row still a little unset. Doris looks like the future and POM found some form. Getting Leavy back to full swing would be great. I'm not sold on Connors, yet and I prefer VDF. The right mix needs to be found. I think Coombes will get a shot soon and possibly Boyle.

Fullback.... I suppose there's a lot of lads knocking on the door. My preference would be Carberry. After him Larmour or JOB. He's been great for Leinster. Larmour, I think would be a great wing. Of course, there's Stockdale and Keenan. I think Keenan is a safer bet.

A lot of holes to fill and that's not even considering the half backs.

Stan27

Dubinusa wrote: »

The problems are noticeable. Loose head being one. I reckon Kilcoyne will get the jersey if he returns to form. Hopefully, EOS gets meaningful minutes. Healy is also going to be in the mix. I think EOS getting a shot right now will get us someone to build upon. Kilcoyne is 32 and Healy is approaching 34. We can hope the Wycherly makes strides too.

Hooker has been awful. There's no other way to describe it. Painful attempts at the line out and a lot of the blame must go to the hookers. Herring is the best of a mediocre bunch. I would think Kelleher will improve but, right now I think he's not at the standard required. At least the basics.

Back row still a little unset. Doris looks like the future and POM found some form. Getting Leavy back to full swing would be great. I'm not sold on Connors, yet and I prefer VDF. The right mix needs to be found. I think Coombes will get a shot soon and possibly Boyle.

Fullback.... I suppose there's a lot of lads knocking on the door. My preference would be Carberry. After him Larmour or JOB. He's been great for Leinster. Larmour, I think would be a great wing. Of course, there's Stockdale and Keenan. I think Keenan is a safer bet.

A lot of holes to fill and that's not even considering the half backs.

Delahunt for hooker.
I agree with joey should be our 15.
Lamour is a wing imo also.

sprucemoose

Stan27 wrote: »

Delahunt for hooker.

scannell when he gets a bit of match-fitness back, a case of least-worst as opposed to best but hes usually solid and was realistically a better call than best before he retired, cant understand why he wasn't in the 6N squad before injury. He starts with kelleher on the bench to get a bit of experience, eventually roles will most likely reverse

TomsOnTheRoof

sprucemoose wrote: »

scannell when he gets a bit of match-fitness back, a case of least-worst as opposed to best but hes usually solid and was realistically a better call than best before he retired, cant understand why he wasn't in the 6N squad before injury. He starts with kelleher on the bench to get a bit of experience, eventually roles will most likely reverse

As a Munster fan I wouldn't want Scannell anywhere near the national team. His discipline is a liability and he doesn't have the all round game required of top level hookers. Delahunty looks the best long term prospect at the moment but O'Byrne and Marshall should also get a look in. O'Byrne in particular has been excellent and definitely deserves a chance to show what he's got.

The Inbetween is mine

sprucemoose wrote: »

scannell when he gets a bit of match-fitness back, a case of least-worst as opposed to best but hes usually solid and was realistically a better call than best before he retired, cant understand why he wasn't in the 6N squad before injury. He starts with kelleher on the bench to get a bit of experience, eventually roles will most likely reverse

Scannell is the third best hooker at Munster
Marshall is the standout option at Munster, if he stays fit he can make the international shirt his own

sprucemoose

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

As a Munster fan I wouldn't want Scannell anywhere near the national team. His discipline is a liability and he doesn't have the all round game required of top level hookers. Delahunty looks the best long term prospect at the moment but O'Byrne and Marshall should also get a look in. O'Byrne in particular has been excellent and definitely deserves a chance to show what he's got.

have to disagree about scannell, think the discipline thing was overblown by commentators in a few matches that munster were fairly poor overall anyway. the few chances he's had with ireland hes been very good imo, he probably deserved to be starting ahead of best after the 2018 aus tour. i like marshall and o'byrne too, i suppose whoever becomes first choice for munster in the euro games probably deserves a go with ireland. delahunt seems okay too so far but haven't been watching a massive amount of connaught recently to be honest, is he first-choice over heffernan?

sprucemoose

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

Scannell is the third best hooker at Munster
Marshall is the standout option at Munster, if he stays fit he can make the international shirt his own

disagree, he's very very good in fairness but he was behind o'byrne since coming back from injury so i dont think hes in the international fold yet tbh

The Inbetween is mine

sprucemoose wrote: »

disagree, he's very very good in fairness but he was behind o'byrne since coming back from injury so i dont think hes in the international fold yet tbh

He's definitely the best option at Munster.. O'Byrne has done well, but Marshall does the basics better and is an animal with ball in hand .
But having said that .. any of them would be great options in an international shirt

Former Former Former

I dunno, Marshall has been here a long time and has yet to claim the first choice jersey at Munster, is he really any better than Herring? I doubt it tbh.

TomsOnTheRoof

sprucemoose wrote: »

have to disagree about scannell, think the discipline thing was overblown by commentators in a few matches that munster were fairly poor overall anyway. the few chances he's had with ireland hes been very good imo, he probably deserved to be starting ahead of best after the 2018 aus tour. i like marshall and o'byrne too, i suppose whoever becomes first choice for munster in the euro games probably deserves a go with ireland. delahunt seems okay too so far but haven't been watching a massive amount of connaught recently to be honest, is he first-choice over heffernan?

Regardless of what commentators have said, and I agree wholeheartedly about them overblowing things, I've always had issues with Scannell's discipline. Time and time again he's warned and continues to infringe until he's blown up whereupon he looks at the ref with a face full of hurt innocence.

Couldn't t tell you which one is starting for Connacht more often, just that anytime I've seen Delahunt he's looked very good.

TomsOnTheRoof

Former Former Former wrote: »

I dunno, Marshall has been here a long time and has yet to claim the first choice jersey at Munster, is he really any better than Herring? I doubt it tbh.

It's difficult to say. In Marshall's defence, Scannell was persisted with after initially performing quite well. At the moment it's between himself and O'Byrne, both of whom are very solid set piece hookers with great hands. I'd say Marshall is a more physical than Herring but after that it's hard to know. We might as well give him a shot anyway and see how he goes.

stephen_n

thomond2006 wrote: »

I doubt the prize money for 2021 will be close to that.

The prize money would be based on TV rights and sponsorship, which was negotiated in advance. There is no reason to assume it will be reduced. Clearly lack of gate receipts will create a major shortfall. As each home game generates between 8-10 million euros.

EachSmallChime

sprucemoose wrote: »

have to disagree about scannell, think the discipline thing was overblown by commentators in a few matches that munster were fairly poor overall anyway. the few chances he's had with ireland hes been very good imo, he probably deserved to be starting ahead of best after the 2018 aus tour. i like marshall and o'byrne too, i suppose whoever becomes first choice for munster in the euro games probably deserves a go with ireland. delahunt seems okay too so far but haven't been watching a massive amount of connaught recently to be honest, is he first-choice over heffernan?

Heffernan would be marginally ahead. He's started the bigger games this season. He's 29 though where Delahunt is 26 which is probably more promising.
I'm guessing Heff is still ahead of the Munster hookers in the short term though.

theVersatile

Paul O'Connell is new forwards coach. Clearly line out woes were recognised.

Clegg

^

This doesn't exactly inspire confidence. POC doesn't have a great track record as a coach.

https://twitter.com/IrishRugby/status/1347128644016218113?s=09

bayern

he is a hugely unproven forwards coach.

sprucemoose

bayern wrote: »

he is a hugely unproven forwards coach.

hate to say i agree, but seeing as andy farrell was a hugely unproven head coach im not surprised