Why no town square in Dublin?

Padre_Pio

crazy 88 wrote: »

I would agree they are mostly safe. But the presence of people drinking and doing drugs (or people who look like they're on drink or drugs) would put off the general public from congregating in open squares or sitting in an outdoor café/restaurant, like they do in European cities. That's why I think those style squares wouldn't work in Dublin.

I wonder do we see this more than tourists? It's not something I notice when I'm abroad.
Is it just that I don't see it, or it's not there to see.

John_Rambo

crazy 88 wrote: »

I would agree they are mostly safe. But the presence of people drinking and doing drugs (or people who look like they're on drink or drugs) would put off the general public from congregating in open squares or sitting in an outdoor café/restaurant, like they do in European cities. That's why I think those style squares wouldn't work in Dublin.

People do congregate in the civic squares in Dublin. As I said before, just because you don't doesn't mean everyone doesn't. Check out Grand Canal Dock square in the middle of summer on a Friday evening. Hundreds of people congregating and eating. Great atmosphere, very relaxed.

strandroad

Padre_Pio wrote: »

I wonder do we see this more than tourists? It's not something I notice when I'm abroad.
Is it just that I don't see it, or it's not there to see.

It's definitely there, many cities also have persistent drug pushers or fake goods peddlers that we don't have. It's just that in an outdoor friendly city they disappear in the crowd.

John_Rambo

The city is on it's knees.

Business is not happening, particularly hospitality and the smaller operations that survive week to week. The cafes, the greasy spoons, the tours, the bars, the small food outlets and the businesses that feed off them are adrift. They are, after all the heartbeat of the city. We don't know who's going to be opened when things get back to normal, it could take a decade or more to rejuvenate and lift the shutters in certain areas of the our amazing city.

Covid has affected the cities more than anywhere and It's given a perfect opportunity for the haters to kick them when they're down as good people refrain from venturing outside their 5k. The underbelly that's always been present and is present in every city has been exposed more than ever and the realists on this thread realise this while others cravenly rejoice at the demise of the capital and other cities.

Dublin continues to be the county with the highest percentage of the population staying local and as the most highly populated county it's important that we continue to lead by example.

Hopefully the measures implemented will mean our civic areas will be packed with good people from all over the country and afar and local enterprises will be supported and will manage to pick themselves up in 2021 and we'll have a version of the roaring twenties when we get ourselves out of this mess.

wakka12

crazy 88 wrote: »

I would agree they are mostly safe. But the presence of people drinking and doing drugs (or people who look like they're on drink or drugs) would put off the general public from congregating in open squares or sitting in an outdoor café/restaurant, like they do in European cities. That's why I think those style squares wouldn't work in Dublin.

Some of those squaress such as Meeting House Square and Templebar Square often have people drinking in them, although I enjoy drinking in them, but as for Merrion Square and Grand Canal Square I'd have to disagree. They don't seem to attract those types, they're very faimily friendly in my expereicne and feel extremely safe. Especially Merrion Square as it's not even open after dark.

Amirani

crazy 88 wrote: »

I would agree they are mostly safe. But the presence of people drinking and doing drugs (or people who look like they're on drink or drugs) would put off the general public from congregating in open squares or sitting in an outdoor café/restaurant, like they do in European cities. That's why I think those style squares wouldn't work in Dublin.

There's generally public drinking in most prominent city squares in Europe.

iffandonlyif

I'm very enthusiastic about the idea of pedestrianising College Green but we shouldn't expect it to be a wonderful addition to the city in itself. For one, the proposed plaza is a deceptively small area. Then there's the fact that there are few retail units that face onto it. Trinity College on one side, Bank of Ireland on another, which is opposite Abercrombie and Ulster bank. These are not going to be putting out chairs and awnings. That could well be solved if they pedestrianise down to George's Street, where there are smaller units. But even there there aren't many good-quality retailers yearning to put out chairs, as is the case around South William Street. It could take a while for Snap Printing and 'Jia Yin's Acupuncture' to be replaced.

Someone above put it well by saying that when circumstances align - sunny weather, public celebration - it will look brilliant, but for most of the time it will be pretty plain. If we raise our expectations above that, we will be disappointed. To my mind, the great promise of pedestrianising College Green is that it will tie the city together, connecting Grafton Street and the surrounding cafe quarter with Temple Bar and O'Connell Street, and cementing CG as the central axis of the city.

L1011

That Abercrombie store is not reopening; Ulster Bank are pulling out of the country. Those units will be replaced.

iffandonlyif

L1011 wrote: »

That Abercrombie store is not reopening; Ulster Bank are pulling out of the country. Those units will be replaced.

Damn, where will I get my preppy polos now? But that inconvenience aside, the use of those units will likely remain unchanged. Neither is likely to be replaced by a retailer that would genuinely contribute to the plaza - Fallon and Byrne, say.

VonLuck

I saw a great post on LinkedIn I think where someone suggested turning the Dublin Castle courtyard into a public square, converting the ground floor offices in the colonnades into cafés, restaurants etc. with outdoor seating.

Seems so obvious now, yet I don't think I've ever seen someone suggest it before (unless it's buried somewhere here in this thread!).

plodder

VonLuck wrote: »

I saw a great post on LinkedIn I think where someone suggested turning the Dublin Castle courtyard into a public square, converting the ground floor offices in the colonnades into cafés, restaurants etc. with outdoor seating.

Seems so obvious now, yet I don't think I've ever seen someone suggest it before (unless it's buried somewhere here in this thread!).

Not a bad idea. In most German towns/cities that kind of courtyard would be given over exclusively to outdoor dining (in the Summer). Most of the surrounding buildings could continue being used for whatever they currently are.

L1011

iffandonlyif wrote: »

Damn, where will I get my preppy polos now? But that inconvenience aside, the use of those units will likely remain unchanged. Neither is likely to be replaced by a retailer that would genuinely contribute to the plaza - Fallon and Byrne, say.

Fallon & Byrne are in no financial state to open another branch. They closed Rathmines and cancelled their entire expansion programme.

iffandonlyif

VonLuck wrote: »

I saw a great post on LinkedIn I think where someone suggested turning the Dublin Castle courtyard into a public square, converting the ground floor offices in the colonnades into cafés, restaurants etc. with outdoor seating.

Seems so obvious now, yet I don't think I've ever seen someone suggest it before (unless it's buried somewhere here in this thread!).

That's a cool idea. And certainly the courtyard worked brilliantly as a civic square after the marriage and abortion referendum results, albeit that it was too small. I don't know, though, that it could accommodate cafes and restaurants while retaining its role as the state function rooms. Maybe it's the conservative in me, but I think I'd rather it remained unchanged, maybe with a coffee stall and some chairs in one of the corners.

L1011 wrote: »

Fallon & Byrne are in no financial state to open another branch. They closed Rathmines and cancelled their entire expansion programme.

I was using F&B as an example of what tenant would contribute to the plaza. Celebrated food shop - yes. Clothes shop - no.

VonLuck

plodder wrote: »

Not a bad idea. In most German towns/cities that kind of courtyard would be given over exclusively to outdoor dining (in the Summer). Most of the surrounding buildings could continue being used for whatever they currently are.

Found the artists impression:

https://imgur.com/yH25jC8

Stovepipe

Eleven Benevolent Elephants wrote: »

:rolleyes: this again.

Neither was London.

70,000 total demolitions and 1.7 millions damaged (wiki) in 6 years of war, in London alone.

plodder

VonLuck wrote: »

Found the artists impression:

https://imgur.com/yH25jC8

Seems like a modest enough idea. Why not?

Fandymo

crazy 88 wrote: »

And your solution for having town squares with a safe atmosphere is?

Police with big baton's who aren't afraid to use them. I was in the square in Wroclaw pre-Covid. A few Roma arrived and started walking around the bars that skirt it, begging. The police arrived and they were bundled into the back of a van and removed from the area.

VonLuck

plodder wrote: »

Seems like a modest enough idea. Why not?

Thanks for embedding it. It wouldn't show up on my post for some reason so I posted the link as well.

Fandymo

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Other nations that like to drink but have a healthy attitude dont consider being legless at closing or hungover in work as an acceptable part of it. Thats what needs to change.

Sure, drink if you want to but know your limit and either head home at it or pace yourself. Its a race to the bottom of the bottle too much in Ireland

It's more a race to get it into you before you are turfed out onto the street because of our archaic licensing laws.

loyatemu

there was a Christmas market in the castle courtyard a couple of years ago, it was actually the first time I'd ever been in there.
It is a lovely space.

iffandonlyif

plodder wrote: »

Seems like a modest enough idea. Why not?

Well, it's an historic courtyard and I don't know that it's worth turning over to tourists. One of the reasons it's so impressive now is the sense of space, which would be lost. Also, it's in quite an obscure location. I imagine many Dubliners are unaware it exists. For a square like that to succeed, I feel it needs to be somewhere tourists naturally find themselves arriving - Temple Bar, College Green, etc. 'Build it and thy will come' didn't work in the case of the CHQ building.

A bugbear of mine is that projections always give wildly unrealistic expectations. Balloons in mid-air. Kite-flying. A working fountain... In reality it will be often rain-soaked, empty, and just a bit underwhelming.

The J Stands for Jay

iffandonlyif wrote: »

Well, it's an historic courtyard and I don't know that it's worth turning over to tourists. One of the reasons it's so impressive now is the sense of space, which would be lost. Also, it's in quite an obscure location. I imagine many Dubliners are unaware it exists. For a square like that to succeed, I feel it needs to be somewhere tourists naturally find themselves arriving - Temple Bar, College Green, etc. 'Build it and thy will come' didn't work in the case of the CHQ building.

A bugbear of mine is that projections always give wildly unrealistic expectations. Balloons in mid-air. Kite-flying. A working fountain... In reality it will be often rain-soaked, empty, and just a bit underwhelming.

CHQ is too far away from town. Dublin castle is much closer, but definitely an obscure location. I've been to a couple of gigs there, 2 Many DJs put on a great show years back.

iffandonlyif

McGaggs wrote: »

CHQ is too far away from town. Dublin castle is much closer, but definitely an obscure location. I've been to a couple of gigs there, 2 Many DJs put on a great show years back.

Yes, I accept that. And the courtyard has three or four tourist attractions in the immediate area. But CHQ has the IFSC, surrounding offices and College of Ireland, and isn't competing with much else in that area. My point was simply that we can't just assume people will flock there (same issue as with the proposed redevelopment of Smithfield Market).

The J Stands for Jay

iffandonlyif wrote: »

Yes, I accept that. And the courtyard has three or four tourist attractions in the immediate area. But CHQ has the IFSC, surrounding offices and College of Ireland, and isn't competing with much else in that area. My point was simply that we can't just assume people will flock there (same issue as with the proposed redevelopment of Smithfield Market).

The IFSC is a weird place (used to live there). Absolutely dead at the weekend. CHQ never really got going. It's a collection of retail units there were never all full. That's never going to attract anyone down to an area where the pubs don't open on a Saturday or Sunday.

I agree that people won't flock to Dublin castle just because there's an open space.

VonLuck

iffandonlyif wrote: »

Well, it's an historic courtyard and I don't know that it's worth turning over to tourists. One of the reasons it's so impressive now is the sense of space, which would be lost. Also, it's in quite an obscure location. I imagine many Dubliners are unaware it exists. For a square like that to succeed, I feel it needs to be somewhere tourists naturally find themselves arriving - Temple Bar, College Green, etc. 'Build it and thy will come' didn't work in the case of the CHQ building.

A bugbear of mine is that projections always give wildly unrealistic expectations. Balloons in mid-air. Kite-flying. A working fountain... In reality it will be often rain-soaked, empty, and just a bit underwhelming.

An obscure location shouldn't matter. Merrion Square is an obscure location yet it gets a lot of footfall because it's a nice park to go for a walk or sit out and have your lunch. There isn't that attraction with Dublin Castle at the moment. Sure the whole front area is unbelievably used as a car park. Not exactly a welcoming sight.

The same person actually posted the routes which would give connectivity as you can see in the below image. It's not exactly out of the way when you're so close to Dame Street and George's Street.

https://imgur.com/M31Nuli

iffandonlyif

VonLuck wrote: »

An obscure location shouldn't matter. Merrion Square is an obscure location yet it gets a lot of footfall because it's a nice park to go for a walk or sit out and have your lunch. There isn't that attraction with Dublin Castle at the moment. Sure the whole front area is unbelievably used as a car park. Not exactly a welcoming sight.

The same person actually posted the routes which would give connectivity as you can see in the below image. It's not exactly out of the way when you're so close to Dame Street and George's Street.

It's a shame creative ideas like that are confined to Linkedin. There was once a time when Boards or Archiseek would have been the obvious place to share them. Any chance you could post the link?

Merrion Square, I think, is different for several reasons, principally that it's a park which generates demand naturally in a way that few other attractions can.

My point about successful squares is that they are usually a focal point of the city, where people find themselves arriving naturally and then make use of the cafes and restaurants - you can't necessarily reverse the causal direction. The aerial image shows decent entry routes, but it shows the most direct one linking to George's Street, which is at the edge of the O'Connell-Temple Bar-Grafton triangle. Obviously it's not a million miles from the centre, but we have to recognise that the further away you move, the more diluted will be the footfall. And unless it could develop as a culinary destination, or some such, which is far from a given, I don't see it being able to draw crowds. The reason I'm so positive about the College Green plaza proposal is that we don't have to project the spontaneous development of a retail ecosystem in order for it to succeed in tying Dublin together and giving pedestrians respite from crowded footpaths.

plodder

iffandonlyif wrote: »

Well, it's an historic courtyard and I don't know that it's worth turning over to tourists. One of the reasons it's so impressive now is the sense of space, which would be lost. Also, it's in quite an obscure location. I imagine many Dubliners are unaware it exists. For a square like that to succeed, I feel it needs to be somewhere tourists naturally find themselves arriving - Temple Bar, College Green, etc. 'Build it and thy will come' didn't work in the case of the CHQ building.

A bugbear of mine is that projections always give wildly unrealistic expectations. Balloons in mid-air. Kite-flying. A working fountain... In reality it will be often rain-soaked, empty, and just a bit underwhelming.

Not that I know anything about the business, but it wouldn't seem a huge gamble or cost to me to allocate some of the space as a concession to local restaurants or hotels for use as a temporary outdoor dining area for a few months of the Summer. Might even be used by locals as well as tourists.

John_Rambo

iffandonlyif wrote: »

Well, it's an historic courtyard and I don't know that it's worth turning over to tourists. One of the reasons it's so impressive now is the sense of space, which would be lost. Also, it's in quite an obscure location. I imagine many Dubliners are unaware it exists. For a square like that to succeed, I feel it needs to be somewhere tourists naturally find themselves arriving - Temple Bar, College Green, etc. 'Build it and thy will come' didn't work in the case of the CHQ building.

A bugbear of mine is that projections always give wildly unrealistic expectations. Balloons in mid-air. Kite-flying. A working fountain... In reality it will be often rain-soaked, empty, and just a bit underwhelming.

It doesn't rain that often in Dublin. There'll be almost twice as many clear days than rainy days in a year. Far more in the summer.

cgcsb

I guess fundamentally it's because the government and DCC hate Dublin.