Why no town square in Dublin?

Eleven Benevolent Elephants

All the European cities I've been in have beautiful open squares, these are ample locations for markets, gatherings and other events.

Our pathetic street Christmas market is squeezed on a footpath in Stephen's Green.

London has Trafalgar Square, there's a beautiful square in Kraków, and most other European cities. Kiev has beautiful open plan squares.

O'Connell Street, Dame Street and College Green, if pedestrianised would make for a beautiful market square.

They look awful festooned with car parking and vehicles belching out smoke.

afatbollix

Dublin wasn't flattened in the war for it all to be replanned and rebuilt.

Eleven Benevolent Elephants

afatbollix wrote: »

Dublin wasn't flattened in the war for it all to be replanned and rebuilt.

:rolleyes: this again.

Neither was London.

Eleven Benevolent Elephants

Eleven Benevolent Elephants wrote: »

:rolleyes: this again.

Neither was London.

Or Kiev.

Kaybaykwah

Isn't Smithfield a public square?

They used to have a horse mule and pony market on every First Sunday of themmonth in the old days. When I deove past it last year, it had all been revamped, though. That was a fair sized place for public events.

CrabRevolution

Eleven Benevolent Elephants wrote: »

Or Kiev.

Kiev was pretty brutally flattened in WW2.

Allinall

There’s a big one in Tallaght.

Fred Cryton

Eleven Benevolent Elephants wrote: »

All the European cities I've been in have beautiful open squares, these are ample locations for markets, gatherings and other events.

Our pathetic street Christmas market is squeezed on a footpath in Stephen's Green.

London has Trafalgar Square, there's a beautiful square in Kraków, and most other European cities. Kiev has beautiful open plan squares.

O'Connell Street, Dame Street and College Green, if pedestrianised would make for a beautiful market square.

They look awful festooned with car parking and vehicles belching out smoke.

They would just become congregation spaces for aggressive beggars harassing members of the public, as well as hard left types shouting into megaphones.

Those other European cities you mention don't have welfare class Dubliners in them. It's the people that are the problem. Nothing good would come from it. The less public spaces the better.

Thelonious Monk

afatbollix wrote: »

Dublin wasn't flattened in the war for it all to be replanned and rebuilt.

Or Seville, Barcelona, Montpellier, I can think of loads...

We kind of do have squares in many towns and cities in Ireland but they're usually 100% dedicated to buses and private cars. College Green, Eyre Square spring to mind.

Hodors Appletart

MHS in Temple Bar

and they are trying to turn College Green into a Plaza style thing

Thelonious Monk

Fred Cryton wrote: »

They would just become congregation spaces for aggressive beggars harassing members of the public, as well as hard left types shouting into megaphones.

Those other European cities you mention don't have welfare class Dubliners in them. It's the people that are the problem. Nothing good would come from it. The less public spaces the better.

You really push this agenda on every thread.
So we shouldn't have car free zones because there are people on welfare. F*cking hell.

Eleven Benevolent Elephants

CrabRevolution wrote: »

Kiev was pretty brutally flattened in WW2.

Ok you're right there.

My point still stands.

The "flattened during the war" argument is bollocks.

Das Reich

Out of curiosity what was the population of Dublin during the last centuries? To me it seems that counties like Leitrim or Clare had much more population before and Dublin was very small and the city developed recently for cars not for pedestrians.

L1011

Das Reich wrote: »

Out of curiosity what was the population of Dublin during the last centuries? To me it seems that counties like Leitrim or Clare had much more population before and Dublin was very small and the city developed recently for cars not for pedestrians.

Dublins % share of population was tiny until the late 19th century and it only really grew due to the rest of the country emptying out due to and after the famine.

A lot of the core centre of Dublin was rebuilt in the Wide Streets Commission era which is why we have very little pre mid 1750s (that isn't religious or administrative) and what we do have is mostly on Aungier and Thomas Streets and not the city centre.

The building of that era - both rebuilds and new development - preferred squares with parks in them not the more European style squares.

odyssey06

I'd rather have Stephens Green, Merrion Square as green areas ... much appreciated at lunchtime when still working in town as a respite from the concrete.

Fred Cryton

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

You really push this agenda on every thread.
So we shouldn't have car free zones because there are people on welfare. F*cking hell.

If it's true , then it's true. On every thread.


If you want a car free zone then pedestrianize a street. South William street would be top of my list. But a square or open space would just be a congregation zone for the types i mentioned.

MrMusician18

O'connell st was originally planned as a grand city square, they then decided to punch through the Liffey end, build the bridge and make it a grand avenue.

CrabRevolution

L1011 wrote: »

Dublins % share of population was tiny until the late 19th century and it only really grew due to the rest of the country emptying out due to and after the famine.

A lot of the core centre of Dublin was rebuilt in the Wide Streets Commission era which is why we have very little pre mid 1750s (that isn't religious or administrative) and what we do have is mostly on Aungier and Thomas Streets and not the city centre.

The building of that era - both rebuilds and new development - preferred squares with parks in them not the more European style squares.

That's what I was thinking too; we've plenty of squares, they just have parks in the middle.

Thelonious Monk

Fred Cryton wrote: »

If it's true , then it's true. On every thread.


If you want a car free zone then pedestrianize a street. South William street would be top of my list. But a square or open space would just be a congregation zone for the types i mentioned.

But these types are all over town anyway, and mostly harmless.
We can't pedestrianise South William St and Drury St entirely because of private car parks unfortunately.

Thelonious Monk

CrabRevolution wrote: »

That's what I was thinking too; we've plenty of squares, they just have parks in the middle.

It doesn't help that they're surrounded by pointy railings. In European cities they have squares with trees and green areas but they aren't fenced in and locked at night. They have the weather for it though so you'd still have families with kids running around there well into the night.

imme

Eleven Benevolent Elephants wrote: »

Or Kiev.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kiev_(1941)

London was fairly whacked in WW2 as well.
Buildings were demolished but the squares were there before and after.
I don't find Trafalgar Square much to write home about, not more a roundabout really.

Different cities have different history.
That's just the way it is.

Dublin has its own look, the Georgian Squares, the work done by the Wide Streets Commrs, which gave us Dame Street, D'Olier Street, Parliament Street etc etc.

It is the use that these streets are put to is maybe something that could be looked at.

As another poster has mentioned there is Smithfield Square.

El Tarangu

They could demolish some of the multi-storey car parks, turn the space into a nice square.

loyatemu

College Green will be a big plaza if plans go ahead. O'Connell St could be similar if it wasn't essentially a giant bus lane (having previously been a car park),

bocaman

As a previous poster said one of the main reasons we don't have big open square is the weather. It's something thats often commented on by tourists who come to Dublin.

L1011

El Tarangu wrote: »

They could demolish some of the multi-storey car parks, turn the space into a nice square.

DCC Drury Street is about the only one that's a standalone building (albeit with restaurants/cafes on the ground floor) and on a street where it could be any use.

Most of the rest are either on top of large retail structures, on side streets/between streets (Schoolhouse Lane, Brown Thomas), or are actually underground (Setanta, the other Drury Street)

imme

loyatemu wrote: »

College Green will be a big plaza if plans go ahead. O'Connell St could be similar if it wasn't essentially a giant bus lane (having previously been a car park),

Unless the big plane trees are chopped down eek! and the Thomas Davis statue and fountain (should be moved either way terrible eyesore) the scale of the new plaza won't be realised.


The Luas will still be trundling along at the edge of the plaza.

It will all be something half baked.

L1011

imme wrote: »

The Luas will still be trundling along at the edge of the plaza.

Trams along the edge of a square is pretty normal in Europe. Three sides of the Dam Square in Amsterdam - the fourth is the palace!

imme

bocaman wrote: »

As a previous poster said one of the main reasons we don't have big open square is the weather. It's something thats often commented on by tourists who come to Dublin.

What would be done in a big square.

A market was suggested by the OP.
Is there a call for a market outdoors.

Moore Street is effectively gone.

A revitalised market in North inner city in the old Corporation Fruit market is in the plans as it is.

imme

L1011 wrote: »

Trams along the edge of a square is pretty normal in Europe. Three sides of the Dam Square in Amsterdam - the fourth is the palace!

Maybe so.

There are many that don't have trams, Grand Place in Brussels, Plaza Mayor in Madrid.
College Green Plaza or whatever they call it will be half baked.

The moaning and court cases will carry on for years.

It will be a redesignation of space rather than a designing of what the place could be.

strandroad

bocaman wrote: »

As a previous poster said one of the main reasons we don't have big open square is the weather. It's something thats often commented on by tourists who come to Dublin.

Amsterdam and Copenhagen both have nasty weather apart from in high summer, not to mention freezing winters, and yet plenty of busy squares.
Cafes and restaurants provide quality heated seating.

kravmaga

Hodors Appletart wrote: »

MHS in Temple Bar

and they are trying to turn College Green into a Plaza style thing

They are planning to pedestrianise the college green/ part of Dame Street also.

They had some trials this year each Sunday where no cars were allowed access the area.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/college-green-plaza-to-double-in-size-under-new-plans-1.4400337

I think this project looks good, not exactly a square but close enough.

completedit

Those squares aren't that great. Weneclaus Square in Prague is nice when they have something set up, like the markets or a celebration like last year for the velvet revolution but in general, nobody goes or spends time there. Old Town Square is the same, the life of the city is not in those parts.

I actually don't enjoy those spaces tbh. I think we'd be far better off having a more thriving area along the Liffey. But there is a hatred for outdoor drinking creeping into Ireland so not sure how successful it will be.

Kaybaykwah

MrMusician18 wrote: »

O'connell st was originally planned as a grand city square, they then decided to punch through the Liffey end, build the bridge and make it a grand avenue.

Yes, and if that hadn't been done, we'd probably be complaining that there are no broad avenues in Dublin.

kravmaga

Well you cant really compare Prague to Dublin, as Im a regular visitor to the Czech Republic, Prague, Ostrava, Brno.

Prague is a 5 star city compared to Dublin's 3 star imo.

Prague is a visually beautiful city , its old city core buildings and architecture, the old town square is a hive of activity at Xmas time. Lots of market stalls etc.

Remember Dublin is a dull dreary working class city with not dissimilar to Liverpool.
Grey buildings , no skyline, poor transport links and sh1te weather for outdoor events in a town square .

DCC want to build a white water river rafting project in the IFSC beside the CHQ building, never heard anything like it , projected cost €23 million.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/white-water-white-elephant-cost-of-planned-dublin-rafting-course-doubles-to-23m-1.4097166

I hope that project gets knocked on the head.

We already have Smithfield Square and that's empty, nothing going on.

I think the best we can hope for is the College Green/ Dame Street Plaza project.

completedit

kravmaga wrote: »

Well you cant really compare Prague to Dublin, as Im a regular visitor to the Czech Republic, Prague, Ostrava, Brno.

Prague is a 5 star city compared to Dublin's 3 star imo.

Prague is a visually beautiful city , its old city core buildings and architecture, the old town square is a hive of activity at Xmas time. Lots of market stalls etc.

Remember Dublin is a dull dreary working class city with not dissimilar to Liverpool.
Grey buildings , no skyline, poor transport links and sh1te weather for outdoor events in a town square .

DCC want to build a white water river rafting project in the IFSC beside the CHQ building, never heard anything like it , projected cost €23 million.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/white-water-white-elephant-cost-of-planned-dublin-rafting-course-doubles-to-23m-1.4097166

I hope that project gets knocked on the head.

We already have Smithfield Square and that's empty, nothing going on.

I think the best we can hope for is the College Green/ Dame Street Plaza project.

Made me nostalgic there really. Looking forward to my return. Dublin lacks a river like Vlatva but we do have the coastline but it always strikes me as devoid of life.

L1011

Smithfield is disconnected from the city core despite being close by. It also suffered badly in its early era by the bad rep from the horse market, the chimney closing for safety works, and then the financial crash, the Lighthouse closing in 2011 (I know its reopened) and so on meaning it never really developed its own purpose.

The markets area redevelopment will make it feel closer, if we do it right - however we may just end up with a wall of hotels on the way there and a rarely used markets building.

The city currently basically ends at Capel Street heading West for tourists and indeed plenty of locals too. Get the markets done right and you're now nearly at Smithfield.

Eleven Benevolent Elephants

bocaman wrote: »

As a previous poster said one of the main reasons we don't have big open square is the weather. It's something thats often commented on by tourists who come to Dublin.

Nonsense. Amsterdam and Copenhagen have similar weather.

imme

kravmaga wrote: »

Well you cant really compare Prague to Dublin, as Im a regular visitor to the Czech Republic, Prague, Ostrava, Brno.

Prague is a 5 star city compared to Dublin's 3 star imo.

Prague is a visually beautiful city , its old city core buildings and architecture, the old town square is a hive of activity at Xmas time. Lots of market stalls etc.

Remember Dublin is a dull dreary working class city with not dissimilar to Liverpool.
Grey buildings , no skyline, poor transport links and sh1te weather for outdoor events in a town square .

Comparing cities is a pointless exercise.
5 star, 3 star :pac: :pac: :pac:

Dublin has some beautiful parts and features.

imme

Eleven Benevolent Elephants wrote: »

Nonsense. Amsterdam and Copenhagen have similar weather.

I don't remember anything remarkable about Copenhagen.

The time I was there they were doing some kind of renovation work and the place was a shambles.

There were no squares that stuck out for me.

Did I miss them. Does anyone know.

MrMusician18

imme wrote: »

Comparing cities is a pointless exercise.
5 star, 3 star :pac: :pac: :pac:

Dublin has some beautiful parts and features.

Warren buffet once said of companies that when the tide goes out, you find out who is swimming without trunks. The tide for cities has gone out with C19, and Dublin has been completely found out. There is little to no clamour from people who work there, but now WfH to return to that kip.

No city square is going to fix that. Dublin is a neglected filthy city, an actual embarrassment.

expectationlost

council ruined Wolfe Tone Square by trying to make it European

MrMusician18

expectationlost wrote: »

council ruined Wolfe Tone Square by trying to make it European

It's the junkies that ruined that square, like every other amenity in the city. The boardwalk, the remembrance garden, O'connell st generally. I could go on.

completedit

imme wrote: »

Comparing cities is a pointless exercise.
5 star, 3 star :pac: :pac: :pac:

Dublin has some beautiful parts and features.

It does but not the city insofar as the city that there is any life around. Dublin is too isolated to be a truly interesting city. But it has its charm.

Kaybaykwah

imme wrote: »

Comparing cities is a pointless exercise.
5 star, 3 star :pac: :pac: :pac:

Dublin has some beautiful parts and features.

It's not dull and dreary. I like the Georgian, Victorian and Edwardian mix. There is a sober attitude to the architecture in Dublin that offsets the character of the people. It's a great city, not any less congenial than Amsterdam, and Copenhagen. I think that the weather forces you into pubs, and it certainly adds to the charm, and the buildings and parks take on a certain "je ne sais quoi" after a few pints.

I also think that Dublin's parks like St Stephen's Green are a more mellow and introverted answer to other cities's public squares, and are conversational rather than congregational public places.

imme

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Warren buffet once said of companies that when the tide goes out, you find out who is swimming without trunks. The tide for cities has gone out with C19, and Dublin has been completely found out. There is little to no clamour from people who work there, but now WfH to return to that kip.

No city square is going to fix that. Dublin is a neglected filthy city, an actual embarrassment.

Nobody wants to go back to work Work. Thanks for speaking up for everybody.

Cities are about more than work.

The mix in the city of work/living and public/private accom is something that has been an issue for decades.

imme

completedit wrote: »

It does but not the city insofar as the city that there is any life around. Dublin is too isolated to be a truly interesting city. But it has its charm.

You'd better not go to Belfast then.

Dublin can't change its history or its geographical location.

MrMusician18

imme wrote: »

Nobody wants to go back to work Work. Thanks for speaking up for everybody.

Cities are about more than work.

The mix in the city of work/living and public/private accom is something that has been an issue for decades.

If cities are about more than work, then why is Dublin so quiet? Now that people have to choose to go to the city rather than be forced due to work, they are choosing not to go. This was even during the good weather and light restrictions during the summer.

The problem for Dublin is that it offers nothing enticing in and of itself, but plenty of reasons to avoid.

It's a filthy dump where authorities have buried their head in the sand about it's problems for decades. With the absence of workers, it's been exposed for what it is, a junkie ridden kip that decent people avoid.

Feenix

Eleven Benevolent Elephants wrote: »

Nonsense. Amsterdam and Copenhagen have similar weather.

They do not. They both have very consistent summers. Their winters aren’t similar to ours either.

Kaybaykwah

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Warren buffet once said of companies that when the tide goes out, you find out who is swimming without trunks. The tide for cities has gone out with C19, and Dublin has been completely found out. There is little to no clamour from people who work there, but now WfH to return to that kip.

No city square is going to fix that. Dublin is a neglected filthy city, an actual embarrassment.

Ahhhhhhh Kreisst! You just burst my bubble.

completedit

imme wrote: »

You'd better not go to Belfast then.

Dublin can't change its history or its geographical location.

True. I am Dublin through and through BTW. My family are all from the inner city. But just lacks something. I think it lacks a truly city center character. The suburbanisation of Dublin reflects in the city.

Feenix

MrMusician18 wrote: »

If cities are about more than work, then why is Dublin so quiet? .

I’d hazard a guess at coronavirus