Affordable EV (5k or less) with ranges of 300km or more?

Thierry12

Kramer wrote: »

How many times has your very recently acquired Tesla been in for repair now?
Isn't the €20k battery now kaputt too?

:P

That's the elephant in the room right now and it works both ways

After that standard in the industry 160,000km battery/drive train warranty is up, which is 3 years for OP, he is left with big risks

64kWh pack costs about €10,000 to source 2nd hand, maybe in 2030 they will be €3,000 but right now they are very expensive.

High performance 200bhp electric motor in that eNiro €7000+

Inverter, charge,controller, brake regen system, bms controller another few thosands euro

That's €20,000 euro worth of stuff to go wrong

The good thing is those big risks will kill 2nd hand values for out of warranty EVs

Exotic stuff like Teslas become a liability out of warranty

I think we will see alot of companies like AA become insurance companies almost when EVs take over as they wont have the breakdowns they have with ICE

Out of warranty insurance will become the norm, not niche like now

Anyone driving an out of warranty Tesla would be insane not to take out cover on battery, drive train etc

ted1

tom1ie wrote: »

why are you adding in the 3k cost?
the car is paid for, i have zero debt on the car.
to get an EV i would have to take on debt.

Because it’s worth 3k. If you sold it you’d have 3k. are you saying that you have 2k cash+ the diesel to spend or have you 5k+3k from selling the diesel

adunis

My 2 cents
I have two electric cars both on finance
Both do CA.35k per year
What I don't spend on fuel/maintenance etc etc PAYS for 1.5 of them
NETT cost to me is 400 euro p/m
ONE IS A Zoe 4.0 on 0% 5 year loan from new
One is a 2017 Ioniq on a 5 year loan at I don't even know what APR, It's cheap,it's not PCP'd cos it was bought 2nd hand for 21k

Markcheese

I'm gonna be very nosey , what type of work site are heading to ? ( As in ,is a construction site ,city office with no parking ,out of town office with parking .. ) is it the same site every time or does it vary ? )
I assume you get milage for company travel , if you're getting x-amount allowance ,most of that could go off your car finance..
do your company do company cars ? ( No BIK on evs ,might change the maths a bit )
A 3 pin plug with a granny cable for a few hours at your destination would probably get you home easily without stopping en route ..

And the next drama will be with your insignia , when it starts getting up in milage ,and/or starts costing for repairs ,and you consider changing it ..
It'll no longer be " paid for "

adunis

This whole arguement is daft
It's as simple as what are you willing to pay for what you want?
I mean I could live in a 15k log cabin on a super cheap site in the arse back of nowhere and drive an 02 Almera.
BUT I choose to pay out for a nice house nice car etc.
Now just to colour the arguement further
I own another four cars that have no debt on them and I still choose to spend my money on the electric yokes.....

Black_Knight

tom1ie wrote: »

ie if a debt costs you 800pm to drive car A but to drive car B costs 0pm, which one costs less from your wage packet?

A financed car costs finance + tax + insurance + NCT to sit in your driveway. One you outright own costs you tax + insurance + NCT to sit in your driveway. Car B doesn't cost you 0pm. Both depreciate too, though if you've a "banger" worth nothing then the financed car suffers here.
The savings occur when you start driving, and the more you drive the faster those savings accumulate.

Get your mileage, consumption, tax, tolls, NCTs, services, and maintenance for the last year or 2 if you can. Work out what it's costing per month. Do the same on an EV with finance (use 20kWh per 100km, into your annual mileage, and multiply that by 0.08. That'll be your electricity bill on an EV). Whichever is cheaper over X (5?) years is the better option. If it's close, your existing car is possibly the better option if you're confident it won't have any major maintenance expenses in those 5 years.

Lumen

tom1ie wrote: »

i need 300km range as i regularly do at leat a 300km round trip 3 times a week.
i dont want to have to charge at a public charge point for at leat 30 mins to get home.
i dont have destination charging at the work site either.

I understand that use case, I have the same myself.

But the reality is that you don't have to charge for 30 mins, you only have to charge long enough to get you home, and then fill up overnight. That might be a 10 min stop once in the round trip, which isn't a burden. Most modern EVs charge at least 200-300km/hr, so 50km will likely take 10-15 mins.

Or you can drive a bit slower.

Which means a 250km car might suit you fine, and there's a lot more chance of that hitting 5k before a 350km one does.

At some stage you'll have a 250km EV within budget and you can decide whether it'll work for you based on the state of the charging network at that point.

Right now it's academic.

MJohnston

Black_Knight wrote: »

A financed car costs finance + tax + insurance + NCT to sit in your driveway. One you outright own costs you tax + insurance + NCT to sit in your driveway. Car B doesn't cost you 0pm. Both depreciate too, though if you've a "banger" worth nothing then the financed car suffers here.
The savings occur when you start driving, and the more you drive the faster those savings accumulate.

I'd note that if you're financing, you will probably never have to do an NCT or pay for any kind of servicing.

Lumen

For what it's worth, based on this morning's consumption my Model 3 LR is currently doing about 26kWh/100km at motorway speeds, which makes it a 280km car. And it's not even deep winter yet.

MJohnston

I believe, and I'm willing to be corrected on this point, that a 300km continuous journey at motorway speeds is physically and legally impossible in Ireland.

Lumen

MJohnston wrote: »

I believe, and I'm willing to be corrected on this point, that a 300km continuous journey at motorway speeds is physically and legally impossible in Ireland.

Nobody has specified a continuous journey. It's a round trip.

Markcheese

Thierry12 wrote: »

The good thing is those big risks will kill 2nd hand values for out of warranty EVs

Exotic stuff like Teslas become a liability out of warranty

I think we will see alot of companies like AA become insurance companies almost when EVs take over as they wont have the breakdowns they have with ICE

Out of warranty insurance will become the norm, not niche like now

Anyone driving an out of warranty Tesla would be insane not to take out cover on battery, drive train etc

But .. if it's a high risk of the premium car commiting suicide ,then the insurance will be very high .. and they it's like motor tax on a premium Merc or bmw .. how much ? Shure the cars not even worth that ..
Insurance is based off possibility.. assurance is based on certainty ,and if you take out a battery assurance policy at around 200,000 miles , with an average milage of 20,000 a year and an expected average battery life of say 400000 miles then that's the battery cost (plus costs) divide by 10 ...annually ..
Would you be keen on paying that every year for a 10 to 15 year old car ?

MJohnston

Lumen wrote: »

Nobody has specified a continuous journey. It's a round trip.

Yes but if we accept that it's not a continuous journey, then there's wiggle room around whether the vehicle needs to be able to do 300km in a single charge. There are lots of 260km range models that could do 300km with a short pitstop.

Additionally, it's very likely that some portion of that 300km will be below "motorway speeds", thus increasing the range efficiency of any potential vehicle.

There's also the unrelated question of how fast you really want for 'motorway speeds'. If you're willing to accept the extra 15-30 minutes that driving at 110kph or 100kph would bring, then you'll be able to expand your selection of potential vehicles even further.

For example, my i3 can easily do 300km at 100kph. Throw in a 10 minute piss break and a fast charge and I'd be able to do it at 120kph no bother.

In short — I think the focus on a hard limit of a 300km range is not worthwhile, if you're looking for value.

Gumbo

tom1ie wrote: »

Loan repayments ARE a cost if you didn’t have that cost before yet still had a car.
This MUST be factored in.
Not to factor that in is crazy!

You won’t have your €800 diesel bill.

Gumbo

tom1ie wrote: »

the debt is not what you borrow( I'm not bothered by that), its how much it costs to your monthly outgoings, ie car A costs 800pm to service debt
car B costs 0pm to service 0 debt.

Car A costs €800 Per month to fuel.
Car B costs €100 per month to fuel.

Either way it’s irrelevant. You can’t get an EV with 300km motorway speeds range for your budget of €5k.

tom1ie

MJohnston wrote: »

I believe, and I'm willing to be corrected on this point, that a 300km continuous journey at motorway speeds is physically and legally impossible in Ireland.

150 there and 150 back at least.
multiple sites to visit during the day also.
mileage can easily go above 300km

tom1ie

Gumbo wrote: »

Car A costs €800 Per month to fuel.
Car B costs €100 per month to fuel.

Either way it’s irrelevant. You can’t get an EV with 300km motorway speeds range for your budget of €5k.

i know that.
i asked when d people think this will occur?

tom1ie

Markcheese wrote: »

I'm gonna be very nosey , what type of work site are heading to ? ( As in ,is a construction site ,city office with no parking ,out of town office with parking .. ) is it the same site every time or does it vary ? )
I assume you get milage for company travel , if you're getting x-amount allowance ,most of that could go off your car finance..
do your company do company cars ? ( No BIK on evs ,might change the maths a bit )
A 3 pin plug with a granny cable for a few hours at your destination would probably get you home easily without stopping en route ..

And the next drama will be with your insignia , when it starts getting up in milage ,and/or starts costing for repairs ,and you consider changing it ..
It'll no longer be " paid for "

site changes quite a lot, and i would have no opportunity for destination charging, as there would be no electricity available where i am going.

mileage for company travel, but that money doesn't need to go off finance now, so i wouldn't want to be paying finance.

no company cars available.

agree re the insignia and future problems which is why i am weighing up options now.

however i do not wish to have a recurring payment every month to fund a car ie a loan, as i dont have one now.

MJohnston

tom1ie wrote: »

150 there and 150 back at least.
multiple sites to visit during the day also.
mileage can easily go above 300km

Right, but like I said, you're not doing 300km in one go all on a motorway.

MJohnston

Where did this €800 a month figure come from btw? You wouldn't be paying anything like that for most EVs via PCP.

tom1ie

MJohnston wrote: »

Right, but like I said, you're not doing 300km in one go all on a motorway.

yeah this is true, but realistically id be depending on the public charging system, and I've read enough threads on here to know that's a no no!
if i had destination charging then i wouldn't be too concerned.

tom1ie

MJohnston wrote: »

Where did this €800 a month figure come from btw? You wouldn't be paying anything like that for most EVs via PCP.

40k loan over 5 years is coming in at 770 pm.
now granted that was on the ccpc website i havent looked at any other options.

Lumen

tom1ie wrote: »

i know that.
i asked when d people think this will occur?

Possibly never.

The only car that can do what you're asking for right now, at typical motorway speed all year round and in all weathers is the Tesla Model S Long Range, Raven version, from 2019.

Even if that ever gets to €5k, the liability of the expensive out-of-warranty drivetrain will be it about as attractive a bangernomics proposition as a....I don't know...Bentley?

Even the Kona 64 will probably lose 15% of range by the time it's sub-10k, which will bring it to around 300km at best, and hardly comfortably.

Future cars may just charge faster at a larger number of charge points and so not need to be equipped with large batteries.

So either you will continue to run a combustion engine, or change the way you use a car.

tom1ie

Lumen wrote: »

Possibly never.

The only car that can do what you're asking for right now, at typical motorway speed all year round and in all weathers is the Tesla Model S Long Range, Raven version, from 2019.

Even if that ever gets to €5k, the liability of the expensive out-of-warranty drivetrain will be it about as attractive a bangernomics proposition as a....I don't know...Bentley?

Even the Kona 64 will probably lose 15% of range by the time it's sub-10k, which will bring it to around 300km at best, and hardly comfortably.

Future cars may just charge faster at a larger number of charge points and so not need to be equipped with large batteries.

So either you will continue to run a combustion engine, or change the way you use a car.

ok. well thanks for answering the question anyway.

MJohnston

tom1ie wrote: »

yeah this is true, but realistically id be depending on the public charging system, and I've read enough threads on here to know that's a no no!
if i had destination charging then i wouldn't be too concerned.

The threads here are largely OTT hyperbole from hardcore early adopters, they aren't really that useful as a window into the day to day reality. Realistically you won't have any worries finding at least one unoccupied and operational fast charger along every motorway in Ireland (and especially so if you can use Tesla superchargers).

You don't even need to rely on fast chargers, my i3 will grab enough off of AC43/22kW chargers in the time it takes for a service station pitstop to add 30-40km of range.

MJohnston

tom1ie wrote: »

40k loan over 5 years is coming in at 770 pm.
now granted that was on the ccpc website i havent looked at any other options.

Yeah but Hire Purchase is generally the worst option. PCP is better for most people, where you're not paying off the entirety of the value of the car, just a 3 year depreciation portion.

Of course, with high amounts of mileage that might not hold true as much.

You also wouldn't be paying in the 40k range either, an ID.3 would be around €32k new OTR.

Lumen

MJohnston wrote: »

The threads here are largely OTT hyperbole from hardcore early adopters, they aren't really that useful as a window into the day to day reality. Realistically you won't have any worries finding at least one unoccupied and operational fast charger along every motorway in Ireland (and especially so if you can use Tesla superchargers).

Not when the stated requirement is 300km a day in a 10-15 year old EV without range anxiety or recharging at public charge points.

This attitude is reminiscent of all enthusiast forums where a common answer to "why doesn't product X do Y?" is "why would you want to do Y? we all do Z and we're quite happy".

It's worth recognising that people are adaptable, but at the same time being told that your requirements are essentially stupid is massively irritating.

Gumbo

tom1ie wrote: »

yeah this is true, but realistically id be depending on the public charging system, and I've read enough threads on here to know that's a no no!
if i had destination charging then i wouldn't be too concerned.

Public charging is a changed area now since pay for charging has come in. You are almost guaranteed to get a Chargepoint nowadays.

MJohnston

Lumen wrote: »

Not when the stated requirement is 300km a day in a 10-15 year old EV without range anxiety or recharging at public charge points.

This attitude is reminiscent of all enthusiast forums where a common answer to "why doesn't product X do Y?" is "why would you want to do Y? we all do Z and we're quite happy".

It's worth recognising that people are adaptable, but at the same time being told that your requirements are essentially stupid is massively irritating.

Nah, don't be silly. Requirements are usually overly simplified goals that have flexibility once someone discusses their specific context. It makes little sense to restrict discussion to the original framing, unless the conversation relates to a broader, general group of people rather than an individual.

Regardless, the post of mine you quoted has nothing to do with that, it's simply my opinion that most people will be able to relatively easily find and access chargers on any given motorway journey. The rhetoric on threads in this forum largely relates to the desire for charging infrastructure to meet future requirements, not present ones.

garo

Lumen wrote: »

Not when the stated requirement is 300km a day in a 10-15 year old EV without range anxiety or recharging at public charge points.

This attitude is reminiscent of all enthusiast forums where a common answer to "why doesn't product X do Y?" is "why would you want to do Y? we all do Z and we're quite happy".

It's worth recognising that people are adaptable, but at the same time being told that your requirements are essentially stupid is massively irritating.

My requirement is a 4000 sq ft A-rated house for under 100k Euros within a 15 minute drive of Dublin city centre. If you don't have anything for me I will continue to live in my poxy shed in the middle of nowhere. (No disrespect to OP but unrealistic expectations will lead to some people here telling you that.)

Lumen

MJohnston wrote: »

Nah, don't be silly. Requirements are usually overly simplified goals that have flexibility once someone discusses their specific context. It makes little sense to restrict discussion to the original framing, unless the conversation relates to a broader, general group of people rather than an individual

Thanks, that's exactly the kind of irritating line of argument I was thinking of.

MJohnston

Lumen wrote: »

Thanks, that's exactly the kind of irritating line of argument I was thinking of.

I must have missed the part where you were the OP.

The J Stands for Jay

Gumbo wrote: »

Car A costs €800 Per month to fuel.
Car B costs €100 per month to fuel.

Either way it’s irrelevant. You can’t get an EV with 300km motorway speeds range for your budget of €5k.

But what could you finance with €700 a month?

AndyBoBandy

McGaggs wrote: »

But what could you finance with €700 a month?

a Tesla Model 3 SR+, €659 per month.

Granted though she'll not do the 300km on motorways in winter (and will just about manage it in summer (if driven at 105km/h))

The J Stands for Jay

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

a Tesla Model 3 SR+, €659 per month.

Granted though she'll not do the 300km on motorways in winter (and will just about manage it in summer (if driven at 105km/h))

Given my mileage for the last 8 months, my potential fuel savings could finance one of those electric scooters.

Gumbo

McGaggs wrote: »

But what could you finance with €700 a month?

No idea. Just using the OP’s €800 fuel bill as a figure.
It’s flexible to be altered to suit what can he wants.

NIMAN

Op is lucky they didn't put such demands on ICE cars relatively speaking , or they would still riding a bike.

tom1ie

garo wrote: »

My requirement is a 4000 sq ft A-rated house for under 100k Euros within a 15 minute drive of Dublin city centre. If you don't have anything for me I will continue I live in my poxy shed in the middle of nowhere. (No disrespect to OP but unrealistic expectations will lead to some people here telling you that.)[/QUOTE

if you read my original post i asked when did we think this would happen.
no need for the attitude. :rolleyes:

tom1ie

Gumbo wrote: »

No idea. Just using the OP’s €800 fuel bill as a figure.
It’s flexible to be altered to suit what can he wants.

did you read the post?
the 800 is the repayments on the loan to get the ev!

tom1ie

NIMAN wrote: »

Op is lucky they didn't put such demands on ICE cars relatively speaking , or they would still riding a bike.

???? thats a joke right?
an ICE car that can do 300km for less than 5k?
i think youll find plenty of them.

look i asked a question, and i see i have upset a few people on here.
might be a good time to leave this thread as is i reckon.

Gile_na_gile

tom1ie wrote: »

???? thats a joke right?
look i asked a question, and i see i have upset a few people on here.
might be a good time to leave this thread as is i reckon.

I don't think you have upset people, just a few people throwing big opinions back and forth, generalising out to the whole viability of EVs, which is not seriously in question.


Basically, the answers from Unkel and Garo are approximately right in that you should be thinking about total monthly running costs over a long period (including finance) and not the initial price point.


The other side of it is that you cannot afford an EV right now anyway for your use-case, so you might as well wait a few years and see what is on offer then. It will take a long time for 300km (winter + motorway) EVs to come below 10k EUR. Even the Model 3 LR cannot do that in cold weather day-in day-out.


I would love a 300km+ EV for motorway use in winter as well to replace a 40KwH EV (150km motorway in winter), but even with a 30k budget I must wait a few years or earn more money. For occasional journeys, fast charger availability has been pretty good in any case.

NIMAN

tom1ie wrote: »

???? thats a joke right?
an ICE car that can do 300km for less than 5k?
i think youll find plenty of them.

look i asked a question, and i see i have upset a few people on here.
might be a good time to leave this thread as is i reckon.

That's why I said relatively speaking.

What you asking isn't realistic, and may not be for a long time.

It's like putting unattainable requirements on your ICE car, like being able to do 200mpg.

tom1ie

Gile_na_gile wrote: »

I don't think you have upset people, just a few people throwing big opinions back and forth, generalising out to the whole viability of EVs, which is not seriously in question.


Basically, the answers from Unkel and Garo are approximately right in that you should be thinking about total monthly running costs over a long period (including finance) and not the initial price point.


The other side of it is that you cannot afford an EV right now anyway for your use-case, so you might as well wait a few years and see what is on offer then. It will take a long time for 300km (winter + motorway) EVs to come below 10k EUR. Even the Model 3 LR cannot do that in cold weather day-in day-out.


I would love a 300km+ EV for motorway use in winter as well to replace a 40KwH EV (150km motorway in winter), but even with a 30k budget I must wait a few years or earn more money. For occasional journeys, fast charger availability has been pretty good in any case.

The whole point of the thread was to find out what the cost per month would be including finance which includes loan repayments.
For a 40k car that’s approx 800 euro.
That’s been my point all along which I have stated many times now.

Thierry12

Lumen wrote: »

For what it's worth, based on this morning's consumption my Model 3 LR is currently doing about 26kWh/100km at motorway speeds, which makes it a 280km car. And it's not even deep winter yet.

Insane but makes sense

Been gale force and lashing down for a month now

What does it do in summer at 120km/h?

20kWh/100km/h?

26% heavier consumption between winter and summer seems alot

My ICE is about 12-14%

tom1ie

NIMAN wrote: »

That's why I said relatively speaking.

What you asking isn't realistic, and may not be for a long time.

It's like putting unattainable requirements on your ICE car, like being able to do 200mpg.

Grand.
I asked the question to see if and when it would ever be realistic as there are a lot of people in my shoes who this scenario applies to.
Don’t think there was any need for smart remarks from certain posters tbh.

NIMAN

tom1ie wrote: »

Grand.
I asked the question to see if and when it would ever be realistic as there are a lot of people in my shoes who this scenario applies to.
Don’t think there was any need for smart remarks from certain posters tbh.

Fair enough, I know where you were coming from.

I too have had folk say to me that they ain't buying an EV until they can travel the length of the country in it.

I ask them how often they do trips of 360 miles? The answer is usually never, but they need the option to.

For me, these folk are never going to buy an ev, not unless the internal combustion engine ceases to be allowed on passenger vehicles. To put such demands on their MUST HAVE checklist means they are just trying to find a way NOT to buy one.

AndyBoBandy

I don’t think a sub €5k car that does 300km in winter will be available for a long long time.... at least 20 years...

And for this to happen, the higher end of the EV market will want to be churning out 1,000+ km cars.

Battery tech will need to improve drastically for it to ever happen.... as a battery that does 300+km (60-70 kWh+) will probably be worth far more than €5k, even if the car itself is mechanically fecked.

Buyers of these cars won’t just be competing against fellow motorists, but with folks looking to buy the car to break it just for the battery!!! (I’d love to connect up a 50kWh+ battery to the side of my house, and only ever consume night rate electricity)

garo

tom1ie wrote: »

if you read my original post i asked when did we think this would happen.
no need for the attitude. :rolleyes:

I know. And my comment was directed less at you than the general slugfest this thread has become. I answered your question earlier as have a few others. Look at total cost of ownership. And even then a 300km EV will be out of your budget for many years unless you relax your constraints.

Lumen

Thierry12 wrote: »

Insane but makes sense

Been gale force and lashing down for a month now

What does it do in summer at 120km/h?

20kWh/100km/h?

26% heavier consumption between winter and summer seems alot

My ICE is about 12-14%

Yeah, about 20 in summer.

I don't really care about the consumption as it's still supercar performance with ultra low running costs, but having to stop is a minor pain in the hole.

Thierry12

Lumen wrote: »

Yeah, about 20 in summer.

I don't really care about the consumption as it's still supercar performance with ultra low running costs, but having to stop is a minor pain in the hole.

True

Your getting a full tank of M3 performance for €7 a tank on the right rate and half its purchase price