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Affordable EV (5k or less) with ranges of 300km or more?

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    #32
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,123 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    I think there’s some hoodwinking going on with the sums here tbh!
    How anyone can argue I’d be financially better off by taking out a loan I’ve to pay 800 euro a month back on per month compared to now when I don’t have to pay 800 a month back to a lender as I don’t have a loan!!


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    #33
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,522 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    tom1ie wrote: »
    I think there’s some hoodwinking going on with the sums here tbh!
    How anyone can argue I’d be financially better off by taking out a loan I’ve to pay 800 euro a month back on per month compared to now when I don’t have to pay 800 a month back to a lender as I don’t have a loan!!

    They’re not arguing you’re better off necessarily, just that loan repayments themselves are not costs because you are trading one type of financial asset (money) for another asset of equal value — the car. The cost is the loan interest.

    So compare the interest portion to your ongoing costs for an ICE, not the entirety of the loan repayments.


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    #34
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,430 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    There are plenty of inoiq's online at sub 18000 to 20,000,
    Minus whatever the trade in value of your insignia is , that makes for a very different sum,
    Yes ,you'd still have car finance, but your actual driving costs would be far far less ,

    You'd probably have to do a short recharge on a long journey , but you'd probably have to stop for diesel too ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #35
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,123 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    MJohnston wrote: »
    They’re not arguing you’re better off necessarily, just that loan repayments themselves are not costs because you are trading one type of financial asset (money) for another asset of equal value — the car. The cost is the loan interest.

    So compare the interest portion to your ongoing costs for an ICE, not the entirety of the loan repayments.

    Loan repayments ARE a cost if you didn’t have that cost before yet still had a car.
    This MUST be factored in.
    Not to factor that in is crazy!


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    #36
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,123 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Markcheese wrote: »
    There are plenty of inoiq's online at sub 18000 to 20,000,
    Minus whatever the trade in value of your insignia is , that makes for a very different sum,
    Yes ,you'd still have car finance, but your actual driving costs would be far far less ,

    You'd probably have to do a short recharge on a long journey , but you'd probably have to stop for diesel too ..

    Id need a car that can do 300km non stop in worst case scenario.
    That only leaves a model 3 s or ID 4 as far as I know.
    That would mean a 40k loan at 800 pm repayments that wipes out any fuel/tax/service savings unfortunately


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    #37
    Silent Running
    Registered Users Posts: 2,818 ✭✭✭Silent Running


    tom1ie wrote: »
    Id need a car that can do 300km non stop in worst case scenario.
    That only leaves a model 3 s or ID 4 as far as I know.
    That would mean a 40k loan at 800 pm repayments that wipes out any fuel/tax/service savings unfortunately

    Kona and e-Niro can do that, no problem. I did 320kms mostly motorway (UK) in January and had 75 kms range pulling into the services to recharge.

    Because it was UK motorway, the speed was 112kph which is 70mph, so it's doable if you don't drive like a lunatic. More relaxing not looking out for speed vans or uniforms with hairdryers too.


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    #38
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,299 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    tom1ie wrote: »
    When do we think we will reach a point when the 2nd hand ev market becomes affordable (5k or less) with ranges of 300km or more?

    I set these parameters as this would be when I buy an ev and I would love an ev as I do 25k kms a year at least.
    I’m driving a diesel at the minute which is probably worth 3k (Vauxhall insignia Sri 2011) but is working perfectly and has no debt on it, which is something I wouldn’t want to change by swapping over to an ev.

    so you've a 2011 car that costs 3k that you used to travel 25000km a year in, so approx. fuel cost is 2000.

    that car will also require a DMF, clutch, brakes or exhaust.

    so lets say after 3 years that car costs 3k(cara)+2k(fuel)+2k(fuel)+2k(fuel)+750(parts)=9,750k and you want to repalce it with a car that costs 5k +250 (fuel)*3 =5750.


  • Options
    #39
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,425 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    tom1ie wrote: »
    I think there’s some hoodwinking going on with the sums here tbh!
    How anyone can argue I’d be financially better off by taking out a loan I’ve to pay 800 euro a month back on per month compared to now when I don’t have to pay 800 a month back to a lender as I don’t have a loan!!
    I've often wondered how people justify buying new cars to themselves, I guess if you don't consider €40k plus interest a cost it's easy!

    Surely that only makes sense with an asset that retains value and you're likely to sell for something on the order of the original price, like a house. A 300,000km Kona isn't going to see much change as a trade in...


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    #40
    charlieIRL
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,190 Mod ✭✭✭✭charlieIRL


    OP, i do 30-40K a year and was driving an Audi A4 Avant which was very economical on diesel but with the money I'm saving on fuel bills / tax / insurance covers the cost of the repayments of my eGolf.

    One thing to remember if you're looking for a 300km car for 5k, by the time they are that cheap there may be some serious battery degradation so if a car done 300kms new, i don't think it will do near that at say - 10 years old!


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    #41
    The J Stands for Jay
    Registered Users Posts: 5,664 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    tom1ie wrote: »
    I think there’s some hoodwinking going on with the sums here tbh!
    How anyone can argue I’d be financially better off by taking out a loan I’ve to pay 800 euro a month back on per month compared to now when I don’t have to pay 800 a month back to a lender as I don’t have a loan!!

    How much do you spend on diesel each month? How much extra will the additional cost of a EV over a €5k diesel cost you each month when it's time to change? How much would the electricity cost you in this hypothetical EV? A bit of maths on these numbers and the savings on electricity v diesel might cover your extra finance cost.


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    #42
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,014 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    TheChizler wrote: »
    I've often wondered how people justify buying new cars to themselves, I guess if you don't consider €40k plus interest a cost it's easy!

    Surely that only makes sense with an asset that retains value and you're likely to sell for something on the order of the original price, like a house.

    Cars are a depreciating consumer good not an investment. Do you worry the same about a holiday, or a TV, or a meal out?

    Even spending money on houses doesn't often make sense. A new kitchen is worthless after 20 years, so why do people buy them? Cos they want one.

    I'm surprised nobody has written "you don't need 300km range". Or maybe they have and I've missed it. :D


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    #43
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,522 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    tom1ie wrote: »
    Loan repayments ARE a cost if you didn’t have that cost before yet still had a car.
    This MUST be factored in.
    Not to factor that in is crazy!

    It's certainly a budgetary cost, I don't think that's in dispute, the point is that the net asset cost for you is zero on repayments alone.

    The interest is where car finance starts costing you money.

    Of course, simply holding onto money is costing you money, even a decent interest savings account at the minute is a bad financial investment.


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    #44
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,522 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    TheChizler wrote: »
    I've often wondered how people justify buying new cars to themselves, I guess if you don't consider €40k plus interest a cost it's easy!

    Surely that only makes sense with an asset that retains value and you're likely to sell for something on the order of the original price, like a house. A 300,000km Kona isn't going to see much change as a trade in...

    This doesn't really stand up as a counter-point because you're talking about a newly bought Kona somehow having 300,000km on the clock after the finance period (3-5 years max).


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    #45
    adunis
    Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭adunis


    My 2 cents
    I have two electric cars both on finance
    Both do CA.35k per year
    What I don't spend on fuel/maintenance etc etc PAYS for 1.5 of them
    NETT cost to me is 400 euro p/m
    ONE IS A Zoe 4.0 on 0% 5 year loan from new
    One is a 2017 Ioniq on a 5 year loan at I don't even know what APR, It's cheap,it's not PCP'd cos it was bought 2nd hand for 21k.
    My logic is very simple if it all goes to S@1t in the morning both of them will easily cover their debt,I'll have had the use of them in the interim and I'll just buy a 100 euro throwaway S@1tbox .

    FINANCE IS NOTHING TO BE SCARED OF IF YOU DO IT RIGHT.


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    #46
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,123 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    ted1 wrote: »
    so you've a 2011 car that costs 3k that you used to travel 25000km a year in, so approx. fuel cost is 2000.

    that car will also require a DMF, clutch, brakes or exhaust.

    so lets say after 3 years that car costs 3k(cara)+2k(fuel)+2k(fuel)+2k(fuel)+750(parts)=9,750k and you want to repalce it with a car that costs 5k +250 (fuel)*3 =5750.

    why are you adding in the 3k cost?
    the car is paid for, i have zero debt on the car.
    to get an EV i would have to take on debt.


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    #47
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,123 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Lumen wrote: »
    Cars are a depreciating consumer good not an investment. Do you worry the same about a holiday, or a TV, or a meal out?

    Even spending money on houses doesn't often make sense. A new kitchen is worthless after 20 years, so why do people buy them? Cos they want one.

    I'm surprised nobody has written "you don't need 300km range". Or maybe they have and I've missed it. :D

    i need 300km range as i regularly do at leat a 300km round trip 3 times a week.
    i dont want to have to charge at a public charge point for at leat 30 mins to get home.
    i dont have destination charging at the work site either.


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    #48
    adunis
    Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭adunis


    tom1ie wrote: »
    why are you adding in the 3k cost?
    the car is paid for, i have zero debt on the car.
    to get an EV i would have to take on debt.

    The Debt isn't what the car costs
    The Debt is what it will have cost you if you have to get rid of it.

    I.e 10k car oh dear my jobs gone
    Sold in a hurry for 8k
    Cost to you 2k not 10k


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    #49
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,430 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    To be honest you're right ,a cheap long range ev doesn't exist ...
    you might be better off selling the insignia , and buying an old audi a2 diesel ,
    You'll get cheap ,reliable,efficient driving .. about 80mpg
    And you'll only need to stop for fuel every 7 or 8 hundred kms ,
    You're also right about if want the new long range cars ,you'll have to pay 40grand and the interest ,and not every one wants a huge car loan hanging over them,
    Even in 4 or 5 years time those cars are likely to be 25 grand plus , ( purely supply and demand ),
    There are newer cheaper evs coming along very soon , but if you want long range it'll still cost you ...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #50
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,123 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    adunis wrote: »
    My 2 cents
    I have two electric cars both on finance
    Both do CA.35k per year
    What I don't spend on fuel/maintenance etc etc PAYS for 1.5 of them
    NETT cost to me is 400 euro p/m
    ONE IS A Zoe 4.0 on 0% 5 year loan from new
    One is a 2017 Ioniq on a 5 year loan at I don't even know what APR, It's cheap,it's not PCP'd cos it was bought 2nd hand for 21k.
    My logic is very simple if it all goes to S@1t in the morning both of them will easily cover their debt,I'll have had the use of them in the interim and I'll just buy a 100 euro throwaway S@1tbox .

    FINANCE IS NOTHING TO BE SCARED OF IF YOU DO IT RIGHT.

    but why spend the monthly repayment on financing the debt, when you already have a car that doesnt have debt on it?

    ie if a debt costs you 800pm to drive car A but to drive car B costs 0pm, which one costs less from your wage packet?

    no amount of fuel saving will counteract that.

    By the way i say all this with regret as i would love an EV. It just doesn't make financial sense.


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    #51
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,123 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    adunis wrote: »
    The Debt isn't what the car costs
    The Debt is what it will have cost you if you have to get rid of it.

    I.e 10k car oh dear my jobs gone
    Sold in a hurry for 8k
    Cost to you 2k not 10k

    the debt is not what you borrow( I'm not bothered by that), its how much it costs to your monthly outgoings, ie car A costs 800pm to service debt
    car B costs 0pm to service 0 debt.


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    #52
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,425 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Lumen wrote: »
    Cars are a depreciating consumer good not an investment. Do you worry the same about a holiday, or a TV, or a meal out?

    Exactly, and I would treat a holiday, TV, or a meal out as a cost that although had value to me at the time, is money I'm never going to see again.
    MJohnston wrote: »
    This doesn't really stand up as a counter-point because you're talking about a newly bought Kona somehow having 300,000km on the clock after the finance period (3-5 years max).

    Ok call the cost the finance, or depreciation or whatever, but at the end of day when you've run the car into the ground you're out of pocket to the tune of €40k. Sure it's cheaper to run but the price of the car has to be factored into your sums somewhere, otherwise we'd all go out buying model Ss.


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    #53
    Thierry12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 979 ✭✭✭Thierry12


    Kramer wrote: »
    How many times has your very recently acquired Tesla been in for repair now?
    Isn't the €20k battery now kaputt too?

    :P

    That's the elephant in the room right now and it works both ways

    After that standard in the industry 160,000km battery/drive train warranty is up, which is 3 years for OP, he is left with big risks

    64kWh pack costs about €10,000 to source 2nd hand, maybe in 2030 they will be €3,000 but right now they are very expensive.

    High performance 200bhp electric motor in that eNiro €7000+

    Inverter, charge,controller, brake regen system, bms controller another few thosands euro

    That's €20,000 euro worth of stuff to go wrong

    The good thing is those big risks will kill 2nd hand values for out of warranty EVs

    Exotic stuff like Teslas become a liability out of warranty

    I think we will see alot of companies like AA become insurance companies almost when EVs take over as they wont have the breakdowns they have with ICE

    Out of warranty insurance will become the norm, not niche like now

    Anyone driving an out of warranty Tesla would be insane not to take out cover on battery, drive train etc


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    #54
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,299 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    tom1ie wrote: »
    why are you adding in the 3k cost?
    the car is paid for, i have zero debt on the car.
    to get an EV i would have to take on debt.

    Because it’s worth 3k. If you sold it you’d have 3k. are you saying that you have 2k cash+ the diesel to spend or have you 5k+3k from selling the diesel


  • Options
    #55
    adunis
    Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭adunis


    My 2 cents
    I have two electric cars both on finance
    Both do CA.35k per year
    What I don't spend on fuel/maintenance etc etc PAYS for 1.5 of them
    NETT cost to me is 400 euro p/m
    ONE IS A Zoe 4.0 on 0% 5 year loan from new
    One is a 2017 Ioniq on a 5 year loan at I don't even know what APR, It's cheap,it's not PCP'd cos it was bought 2nd hand for 21k


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    #56
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,430 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    I'm gonna be very nosey , what type of work site are heading to ? ( As in ,is a construction site ,city office with no parking ,out of town office with parking .. ) is it the same site every time or does it vary ? )
    I assume you get milage for company travel , if you're getting x-amount allowance ,most of that could go off your car finance..
    do your company do company cars ? ( No BIK on evs ,might change the maths a bit )
    A 3 pin plug with a granny cable for a few hours at your destination would probably get you home easily without stopping en route ..

    And the next drama will be with your insignia , when it starts getting up in milage ,and/or starts costing for repairs ,and you consider changing it ..
    It'll no longer be " paid for "

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #57
    adunis
    Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭adunis


    This whole arguement is daft
    It's as simple as what are you willing to pay for what you want?
    I mean I could live in a 15k log cabin on a super cheap site in the arse back of nowhere and drive an 02 Almera.
    BUT I choose to pay out for a nice house nice car etc.
    Now just to colour the arguement further
    I own another four cars that have no debt on them and I still choose to spend my money on the electric yokes.....


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    #58
    Black_Knight
    Moderators Posts: 12,367 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    tom1ie wrote: »

    ie if a debt costs you 800pm to drive car A but to drive car B costs 0pm, which one costs less from your wage packet?

    A financed car costs finance + tax + insurance + NCT to sit in your driveway. One you outright own costs you tax + insurance + NCT to sit in your driveway. Car B doesn't cost you 0pm. Both depreciate too, though if you've a "banger" worth nothing then the financed car suffers here.
    The savings occur when you start driving, and the more you drive the faster those savings accumulate.

    Get your mileage, consumption, tax, tolls, NCTs, services, and maintenance for the last year or 2 if you can. Work out what it's costing per month. Do the same on an EV with finance (use 20kWh per 100km, into your annual mileage, and multiply that by 0.08. That'll be your electricity bill on an EV). Whichever is cheaper over X (5?) years is the better option. If it's close, your existing car is possibly the better option if you're confident it won't have any major maintenance expenses in those 5 years.


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    #59
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,014 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    tom1ie wrote: »
    i need 300km range as i regularly do at leat a 300km round trip 3 times a week.
    i dont want to have to charge at a public charge point for at leat 30 mins to get home.
    i dont have destination charging at the work site either.

    I understand that use case, I have the same myself.

    But the reality is that you don't have to charge for 30 mins, you only have to charge long enough to get you home, and then fill up overnight. That might be a 10 min stop once in the round trip, which isn't a burden. Most modern EVs charge at least 200-300km/hr, so 50km will likely take 10-15 mins.

    Or you can drive a bit slower.

    Which means a 250km car might suit you fine, and there's a lot more chance of that hitting 5k before a 350km one does.

    At some stage you'll have a 250km EV within budget and you can decide whether it'll work for you based on the state of the charging network at that point.

    Right now it's academic.


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    #60
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,522 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Black_Knight wrote: »
    A financed car costs finance + tax + insurance + NCT to sit in your driveway. One you outright own costs you tax + insurance + NCT to sit in your driveway. Car B doesn't cost you 0pm. Both depreciate too, though if you've a "banger" worth nothing then the financed car suffers here.
    The savings occur when you start driving, and the more you drive the faster those savings accumulate.

    I'd note that if you're financing, you will probably never have to do an NCT or pay for any kind of servicing.


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    #61
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,014 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    For what it's worth, based on this morning's consumption my Model 3 LR is currently doing about 26kWh/100km at motorway speeds, which makes it a 280km car. And it's not even deep winter yet.


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