Labour want to bring back auto-birthright citizenship

GT89

Of course if you don't support this nonsense you'll be branded as a racist and a nazi as usual

kildare lad

Donald Trump wrote: »

I wonder why would you think then how, some people who come from countries where English is fairly widespread spoken, such as Nigeria, end up being in that 40% unemployed cohort for so long.

Whereas other people, who come from Eastern Europe where English is not that widespread, can arrive over and stay in employment most of the time.

As dr ebun joseph says .... Racism

screamer

Add a poll to this thread, you’ll soon see the answer

May be unpopular,but id consider vote for this

I get/even broadly agree with many of the arguements/concerns put forward surronding "anchor child" etc (horrible phrase,every bit as poisious to discussion as refering to those raising concerns as racists imo)



But on point of principal,i just think anyone born in ireland (anywhere on the island),should be irish and irish first.......we have blackest of orangemen,who never want anything to do with us getting passports now,dont really see the harm in it



However I dont think its likely it would pass a referendum mind,nor have i any great inclination to campaign for it,but on point of principal alone,i wouldnt vote againest it

Galwayguy35

WhenPigsCry wrote: »

Yes, I hold an official government document, purporting to outline the evidence for why a constitutional change is necessary, to a far higher standard than some post on a poxy message board.

And actually, it was what I know at least one opinion poll found
https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-citizenship-2-4345852-Nov2018/

Of course this was conducted in an atmosphere where people were considering the harsh reality of a kid potentially being deported from the country he was born and raised in, and not just innuendo about planeloads of heavily pregnant brown women.

Hmm, an article from The Journal talking about a poll taken by The Sunday Times.

Mad_maxx

sdanseo wrote: »

Miscalculated muppetry of this magnitude is why the Labour party has faded into near irrelevance and has 6 Dáil seats.

labour are not motivated by what the electorate think , they are concerned with the view of the chattering classes

Wibbs

kildare lad wrote: »

As dr ebun joseph says .... Racism

Well for a welcome and rare change she's not wrong. Racism is a large part of it, but that's not going away anytime soon, nor is it confined to Ireland as there isn't a multicultural nation in the EU where those of African origin don't tend to cluster near the bottom in socioeconomic terms. There can also be a culture of low expectations within and without the communities too.

Oh and before the pearl clutchers come along, it's not "race". EG in the US immigrants from African nations do notably better than local African Americans. Then again they're legal migrants who applied to get in so... In Ireland you can find many again legal folks from Africa in areas like the medical field. Well qualified and welcome additions. Though as noted the loophole didn't tend to give us doctors and engineers. Such people rarely need loopholes to exploit.

Donald Trump

Deleted User wrote: »

May be unpopular,but id consider vote for this

I get/even broadly agree with many of the arguements/concerns put forward surronding "anchor child" etc (horrible phrase,every bit as poisious to discussion as refering to those raising concerns as racists imo)



But on point of principal,i just think anyone born in ireland (anywhere on the island),should be irish and irish first.......we have blackest of orangemen,who never want anything to do with us getting passports now,dont really see the harm in it



However I dont think its likely it would pass a referendum mind,nor have i any great inclination to campaign for it,but on point of principal alone,i wouldnt vote againest it

How much assistance would you like the state to give to non-EU parents who want their child to have an EU passport?

Should the government charter planes for them for example to bring them in right before the baby is due, or should we just allow them to come in a few months beforehand to get comfortable?

Or perhaps we should have a scheme whereby if the parents of any child anywhere in the world would like that child to have an Irish passport then they just have to ask for it and the government sends them one. Then we wouldn't have to even bother with the travel to here at all. Save a lot of hassle

Or would you prefer to just restrict it to the wealthy ones? And by wealthy, I mean the ones with enough money to get a flight or pay for a ferry here before they pop


In truth, we cannot have a relatively open border and also tolerant asylum-claiming/seeking process along with Jus soli.

Donald Trump

Donald Trump wrote: »

How much assistance would you like the state to give to non-EU parents who want their child to have an EU passport?

Should the government charter planes for them for example to bring them in right before the baby is due, or should we just allow them to come in a few months beforehand to get comfortable?

Or perhaps we should have a scheme whereby if the parents of any child anywhere in the world would like that child to have an Irish passport then they just have to ask for it and the government sends them one. Then we wouldn't have to even bother with the travel to here at all. Save a lot of hassle

Or would you prefer to just restrict it to the wealthy ones? And by wealthy, I mean the ones with enough money to get a flight or pay for a ferry here before they pop


In truth, we cannot have a relatively open border and also tolerant asylum-claiming/seeking process along with Jus soli.

Ultimate strawman there....ive not said,nor suggested none of the above.....if you have to resort to hyperbole and made up scenarios,perhaps your point has zero substance???


Just on point of principal,i think anyone born on the island should be irish and irish first.,and i wouldnt vote againest said change.....if you havnt principals,you have nothing



Now your free to vote,whatever way you wish,no skin off my nose,

Eric Cartman

.anon. wrote: »

Most people don't come here looking for a free ride.

No, because most of our immigration is from the EU. From outside the EU most immigration is here to scam the sweet free gravy train.

Donald Trump

Deleted User wrote: »

Ultimate strawman there....ive not said,nor suggested none of the above.....if you have to resort to hyperbole and made up scenarios,perhaps your point has zero substance???


Just on point of principal,i think anyone born on the island should be irish and irish first.,and i wouldnt vote againest said change.....if you havnt principals,you have nothing



Now your free to vote,whatever way you wish,no skin off my nose,

It's not hyperbole at all. What you are proposing is an open loophole that is easily exploited by any non-EU parent that wants their child to have EU citizenship. It is effectively the same thing. I deliberately extrapolated to a case which most people could see was ridiculous. But it would be a consequence of what you are supporting. All the would need to do is to be able to land at Dublin airport a few weeks before they are due. They don't need a visa. They just need a lighter, burn their passport in the toilets after the plane and present themselves at immigration and say they want asylum. By the time they are processed and their story is found to be bogus, the baby has its passport. Worst case scenario is that they are both shipped back to wherever...but if what they wanted was the passport then mission accomplished!

Why do you want that loophole to be open only to those that can afford that ticket? (or a ferry ticket if they have already made their way to France or the UK). That's not very charitable!

Jus soli is a great idea in principle. But coupled with our other systems, it is just an open door for exploitation.

By removing it from the constitution, after the unintended consequences of putting it in there were realised, it can be resolved with legislation which allows for much more dynamic solutions and reactions. A child born to two non-national parents will still get citizenship subject to reasonable conditions.


Edit: For those who still aren't aware - the reason that it was put into the constitution in the first place was the Good Friday agreement. The Republic removed articles which related to its claim of jurisdiction over the whole island. Given that we were no longer claiming jurisdiction over the whole island, it meant that there would be no basis for Nordies to get citizenship. So a sentence was put in that granted everybody born on the island a right to Irish citizenship. It was to ensure that Northern Nationalists were not perceived to be being abandoned by the Irish State removing it's jurisdictional claims. That is the reason it was put in. Not for any philosophical jus soli reason.

Donald Trump

Donald Trump wrote: »

It's not hyperbole at all. What you are proposing is an open loophole that is easily exploited by any non-EU parent that wants their child to have EU citizenship. It is effectively the same thing. I deliberately extrapolated to a case which most people could see was ridiculous. But it would be a consequence of what you are supporting. All the would need to do is to be able to land at Dublin airport a few weeks before they are due. They don't need a visa. They just need a lighter, burn their passport in the toilets after the plane and present themselves at immigration and say they want asylum. By the time they are processed and their story is found to be bogus, the baby has its passport. Worst case scenario is that they are both shipped back to wherever...but if what they wanted was the passport then mission accomplished!

You litetally admit to.making up.a scenario??

Why do you want that loophole to be open only to those that can afford that ticket? (or a ferry ticket if they have already made their way to France or the UK). That's not very charitable!

I have never said,i wanted this,so yet another stawman arguement based around presumed charitable intentions......but i understand/get this arguement in general

Jus soli is a great idea in principle. But coupled with our other systems, it is just an open door for exploitation.

Probably is,but it deosnt seem something,on point of principle i can oppose,quiet why yous find this difficult to understand is beyond me

By removing it from the constitution, after the unintended consequences of putting it in there were realised, it can be resolved with legislation which allows for much more dynamic solutions and reactions. A child born to two non-national parents will still get citizenship subject to reasonable conditions.

Its unlikely to ever get repealed,imo,its a popular legislation,just id not personally vote againest it,if it come.up......(i generally put alot of taught into which way i vote,and spoiling vote is often a consequence of this,)

Edit: For those who still aren't aware - the reason that it was put into the constitution in the first place was the Good Friday agreement. The Republic removed articles which related to its claim of jurisdiction over the whole island. Given that we were no longer claiming jurisdiction over the whole island, it meant that there would be no basis for Nordies to get citizenship. So a sentence was put in that granted everybody born on the island a right to Irish citizenship. It was to ensure that Northern Nationalists were not perceived to be being abandoned by the Irish State removing it's jurisdictional claims. That is the reason it was put in. Not for any philosophical jus soli reason.

I think,you'll see a united ireland,long before such legislation around this issue is attempted repealed/put to the people....alan kelly is not proposing this for benefit of anyone but himself however,and its pure cynicism in place of silrnce surronding direct provision centres

ThunbergsAreGo

.anon. wrote: »

With an aging population, more future taxpayers to help keep us afloat after we retire. Also, a sense of pride that we don't deport children who were born here, forcing them to live in whatever foreign country their parents came from. Basic common decency, really. Not 'woke'... not 'virtue signaling'... just decency. A foreign concept to some on here.

When a sense of pride is one of the foremost reasons it all starts to sound very flimsy.

Whats wrong with the country their parents were born in?

twinytwo

CrabRevolution wrote: »

Unfortunately the amendment includes the phrasing "unless provided for by law.". Not that the rule of law is bad, but it means that it won't take another referendum to change the law back to birthright citizenship.

Given that in recent years we have crept more and more in the direction of "government by NGO", it wouldn't surprise me if legislation to restore birthright citizenship is passed, backed solely by a report from the migrant council. The public won't get a say in the matter.

Is that correct?? So they are deliberately by passing a referendum?

ThunbergsAreGo

twinytwo wrote: »

Is that correct?? So they are deliberately by passing a referendum?

Pretty worrying, can see this being passed at the behest of the Twitter right on, cannot think for themselves mob.

All driven by our media, with all opponents labelled extreme right wingers.

After which the media will go back to wondering why we don't have enough social housing......

twinytwo

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Pretty worrying, can see this being passed at the behest of the Twitter right on, cannot think for themselves mob.

All driven by our media, with all opponents labelled extreme right wingers.

After which the media will go back to wondering why we don't have enough social housing......

Well i ask as I don't see that term in the official version from the oireachtas.ie site

It wouldn't surprise me though and with SF/Greensholding so many seats it would potentially pass.

It's a pity we have no way to force a TD to resign other than the ballot box. Mick Barry would be a prime candidate for trying yet again to pull this nonsense

VinLieger

Not that im for it but its potentially one way of combating the looming state pension crisis when our worker to retiree ratio will collapse thanks to our aging population

twinytwo

VinLieger wrote: »

Not that im for it but its potentially one way of combating the looming state pension crisis when our worker to retiree ratio will collapse thanks to our aging population

Ideally we would move away from a welfare state. But in a not so perfect world we just make it easier from Irish couples families to have children... rather than importing them. But then NGO's wouldn't make money from that.

In the long term we are importing trouble. Just look at France, Sweden and the UK. This law would essentially throw open the doors to the world to gain access to the EU

VinLieger

twinytwo wrote: »

Ideally we would move away from a welfare state. But in a not so perfect world we just make it easier from Irish couples families to have children... rather than importing them. But then NGO's wouldn't make money from that.

In the long term we are importing trouble. Just look at France, Sweden and the UK. This law would essentially throw open the doors to the world to gain access to the EU

When considering the pension issue its already too late to make it easier to have children, right now the ratio is 5:1 workers to retirees, by 2040 its projected to be 3:1 making the current state pension unworkable. We needed to make it easier to have children 10 years ago but instead weve just been making it harder for the last 20.

I agree we need to move away from a welfare state but none of our political parties will stand up to the grey vote. Back to the topic and importing young workers is one part of a larger solution, but again i do not agree with auto birthright.

mohawk

Eric Cartman wrote: »

No, because most of our immigration is from the EU. From outside the EU most immigration is here to scam the sweet free gravy train.

I wouldn’t say most non-EU immigration is here for the gravy train. Plenty come here from India, Philippines, Brazil and many more and they fill gaps for skilled roles in our labour market. My own industry is increasingly needing non EU staff to fill roles. Plus look at the health care system.

Eric Cartman

VinLieger wrote: »

Not that im for it but its potentially one way of combating the looming state pension crisis when our worker to retiree ratio will collapse thanks to our aging population

But it isnt. Were making it worse. Importing non EU migrants just creates more detractors from the economy, upping child benefit creates more detractors from the economy.

The reality of it is the only way to solve our future crisis is to discourage non EU migration and discourage life long welfare recipients and non working communities from having kids.

Future child benefit should be converted to a tax credit only , contraception severely subsidised or made free to women on welfare , childcare places subsidised for two income households .

The only children Ireland needs are from households with 2 parents present and 2 full time workers / 1 higher income worker.

kildare lad

Eric Cartman wrote: »

But it isnt. Were making it worse. Importing non EU migrants just creates more detractors from the economy, upping child benefit creates more detractors from the economy.

The reality of it is the only way to solve our future crisis is to discourage non EU migration and discourage life long welfare recipients and non working communities from having kids.

Future child benefit should be converted to a tax credit only , contraception severely subsidised or made free to women on welfare , childcare places subsidised for two income households .

The only children Ireland needs are from households with 2 parents present and 2 full time workers / 1 higher income worker.

Exactly , if someone's on the HAP or rent allowance their whole lives and factor in multiple children's allowance , medical cards etc , I can't see how that's gonna help toward the pension fund when we're all older , sure look at the Romanian who was caught scamming people during the week . They were already getting 650 euro off the state every week

https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2020/1106/1176429-sentence-deceiving-elderly/

Sergeant Murphy and Detective Garda Byrne subsequently discovered a second victim, a 74-year-old woman from Dublin.

Not only did she give Iosca her life savings of more than €100,000, she also took out a loan for €15,000 to pay for treatment in France for cancer which Iosca never had.

The woman is still re-paying the loan today.

During all this time, over a period of seven years, Iosca was being paid social welfare allowance, disability payments, rent allowance, child allowance and travel allowance, generating a further family income of €650 per week.

My friend went out with a latvian girl before , she's a single mother and hasn't worked in 7 years but yet she's an apartment to herself and claims everything. Another polish single mother off my son's football team arrived up to training in a new Jeep , she told us she got put on the HAP for an apartment so she decided to treat herself to a new car . If you think we're going to be paying are pensions with people like that you need your head examined. My mates dad looks after two georigan buildings that are turned into bedsits , it's mainly immigrants that live in them and they take in nearly 90,000 a year from HAP/ rent allowance. That's barely scratching the surface on the amount of welfare the state pays out .

Gervais08

VinLieger wrote: »

Not that im for it but its potentially one way of combating the looming state pension crisis when our worker to retiree ratio will collapse thanks to our aging population

Except it’s not - unless you believe the NGO horse**** that they’re all doctors and engineers and just choosing to take the scenic route here he way of the back of a lorry into Rosslare and they really can get a word visa ???

weldoninhio

VinLieger wrote: »

When considering the pension issue its already too late to make it easier to have children, right now the ratio is 5:1 workers to retirees, by 2040 its projected to be 3:1 making the current state pension unworkable. We needed to make it easier to have children 10 years ago but instead weve just been making it harder for the last 20.

I agree we need to move away from a welfare state but none of our political parties will stand up to the grey vote. Back to the topic and importing young workers is one part of a larger solution, but again i do not agree with auto birthright.

We're part of a massive European bloc, why would we need to import the third world?

Donald Trump

VinLieger wrote: »

Back to the topic and importing young workers is one part of a larger solution, but again i do not agree with auto birthright.

Importing young workers is all well and good. And yes, of course there are good and bad people everywhere.
But from a macro policy level, when you have 20 years of data which suggests that 40% of a particular type/demographic of immigrants, despite being prime working age, end up being long term unemployed....then you have to recognise a pattern and maybe conclude that perhaps that that particular source might not be a good one to draw from.

Donald Trump

Deleted User wrote: »

You litetally admit to.making up.a scenario??

All scenarios are made up by definition. That is a tautology. Any hypothetical situation is also a scenario.

Wibbs

weldoninhio wrote: »

We're part of a massive European bloc, why would we need to import the third world?

Indeed. I don't recall any recruitment drives in EU nations like Spain, Italy, Greece that have more unemployed than say Germany, even though such potential workers are closer, have similar educational standards and are much easier to do background checks on. When the crash happened and talk was of the "PIGS" nations in Southern Europe who were in dire straits I recall no EU drive from the member states who weathered it better, but needed workers looking towards those fellow EU members, but then Merkel was all excited to welcome hundreds of thousands of "refugees". Oh no, we must import non Europeans, the darker, more exotic the better, because it seems pale Europeans aren't "culturally diverse" enough for the happy clappy multiculturalist faith.

Look, we already see that here with only 20 years of modern "multiculturalism". Check out the vested interest NGO's and try and find White faces who are "new Irish". Pretty much none, unless they have a hijab in the mix. Not so many east Asian faces either. Yet of the non native Irish folks living and working here the majority are White European in origin, both from within and without the EU. .

weldoninhio

weldoninhio wrote: »

We're part of a massive European bloc, why would we need to import the third world?

Because eastern europeans wont pay all their wages over in rent and are better off starting families at home (and i wouldnt fault them for doing so either)


So just bring in rake of africans etc,to prop up the whole system,except now the rents are paid by the state as "employers" drive down wages to this new wave of immigrants and exploit the fcuk outta them with sh1t terms and conditions.....while proclaiming this as progress

TomTomTim

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed. I don't recall any recruitment drives in EU nations like Spain, Italy, Greece that have more unemployed than say Germany, even though such potential workers are closer, have similar educational standards and are much easier to do background checks on. When the crash happened and talk was of the "PIGS" nations in Southern Europe who were in dire straits I recall no EU drive from the member states who weathered it better, but needed workers looking towards those fellow EU members, but then Merkel was all excited to welcome hundreds of thousands of "refugees". Oh no, we must import non Europeans, the darker, more exotic the better, because it seems pale Europeans aren't "culturally diverse" enough for the happy clappy multiculturalist faith.

Look, we already see that here with only 20 years of modern "multiculturalism". Check out the vested interest NGO's and try and find White faces who are "new Irish". Pretty much none, unless they have a hijab in the mix. Not so many east Asian faces either. Yet of the non native Irish folks living and working here the majority are White European in origin, both from within and without the EU. .

That reminds me. Another group have popped up recently.

https://twitter.com/LeCheileDND/status/1325434551582257153

I'm sure they'll be getting state funding soon for their heroic endeavours.

ThunbergsAreGo

TomTomTim wrote: »

That reminds me. Another group have popped up recently.

https://twitter.com/LeCheileDND/status/1325434551582257153

I'm sure they'll be getting state funding soon for their heroic endeavours.

Great we need more NGOs. This is filling a gap that was not already handled by about 951 other groups.

Hopefully in the near future we can all be employed by NGOs