Labour want to bring back auto-birthright citizenship

I don't understand why the Government is entertaining this, the consequences of bringing this back seem obvious even more so after the Zambrano case as it means the parents of an EU citizen child cannot be deported or denied the opportunity to work. Do they think that this is what FG/FF voters want?

We are more than fair in giving citizenship if a childs parent has been here legally in the proceeding few years. This policy would seem to encourage people overstaying and working illegally. It makes a mockery of the whole process of getting a work permit and the critical skills list.

Have I been missing them or am I right that I have never heard of a business being fined for employing workers without permits or at least it does not seem to happen frequently surely the focus should be on that. I don't understand how a supposed labour party can support the black market which drives down wages and also the opening up of the labour market to workers whos skills are able to be filled by the existing labour market.

If the Government believes that this is the will of the people, why not put it to another vote?

November Golf

fly_agaric wrote: »

That seems to be distorting things, implying people (in general) back then hadn't a clue what would happen if they voted Yes because the poster might have made a technical error.

We are not quite so bad with our referenda here (as yet) that the govt. politicians just put them up for the vote & it is unclear/unknown what they intend to do if it is passed.

I think you need to re-read the posts that came before it. Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could or should have been but as was said, Some posters seemed to me to be confusing people's motives for voting (Yes) and the legal effect that it had on the constitution and the law.

What people voted for (legally) and why people voted a particular way (motivation) is not the same thing.

When a poster claimed that the 80% of people voted in favour of the amendment for a particular reason/s; I made the point that what people voted for (as per the constitutional amendment) was to allow to Oireachtas to decide the law.

I didn't said that people didn't have a clue what would happen if they voted yes; I also didn't say that the politicians that advocated Yes didn't express their intend.

Randy Archer

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't understand why the Government is entertaining this, the consequences of bringing this back seem obvious even more so after the Zambrano case as it means the parents of an EU citizen child cannot be deported or denied the opportunity to work. Do they think that this is what FG/FF voters want?

We are more than fair in giving citizenship if a childs parent has been here legally in the proceeding few years. This policy would seem to encourage people overstaying and working illegally. It makes a mockery of the whole process of getting a work permit and the critical skills list.

Have I been missing them or am I right that I have never heard of a business being fined for employing workers without permits or at least it does not seem to happen frequently surely the focus should be on that. I don't understand how a supposed labour party can support the black market which drives down wages and also the opening up of the labour market to workers whos skills are able to be filled by the existing labour market.

If the Government believes that this is the will of the people, why not put it to another vote?

Bingo , well observed .

Citizenship is easy to get . If the parent gets it, then the Irish born child who is not a citizen can apply immediately and will be deemed Irish at that point

Even with the 2003 Supreme Court (which Zambrano effectively later overruled ) cases that ruled that parents of citizen children could be deported , it still had to be levelled with ECHR case law . For a short period , the State wrongly applied the case in every single application , thus came a slight draw back in the Supreme Court cases of 2007 such as Bode .

The State already have a laxed attitude towards over stayers and illegals and often give residency on the QT , rather than deport them

Even the EU doesn’t want use to have these jus soli rules . You’d have thought the Belgians would have cottoned on from the 2004 Chen Case (country involving Zambrano)

There’s no point having any immigration system if it rewards people who over stay or enter illegal . Any muppet can conceive a child . Some women just have a sneeze to get up the duff (not literally)

The non EU migrants who get the rawest of deals are those who came and followed the rules , got their work permits at great expense and had to tolerate slavery like terms (not easy to get new permit if you leave a boss who you hate and he’s a ****) until they could get stamp 4 or Irish citizenship .

Why bother getting a work permit when lads who are inferior to you and have zero life and work skills can come in , endure a few years illegal (while quietly working illegally) and be handed a stamp 4 residency eventually - all because they got someone up the duff and the kid will now be an Orish citizen ?

Not to mention getting State assistance just as job seekers etc . Until recent time , a work permit holder have **** all protection if they lost their job and they were threatened with deportation by department of justice of the department of jobs wouldn’t be them a new permit (work permits got really hard to get for low and medium skilled workers after 2004

The current immigration system is actually inherently unfair . Say for example you had Americans , some of whom are of Irish stock - but not citizens - they want to come and live here for 1 year or two but have no intention of wanting to work BUT are happy to completely fund themselves -eg Irish Retirees want to live in Florida for the summer - where can they find the rules ? There aren’t many ! It’s at the discretion of the Minister but they may need to have at all times at least e50,000 in the back (100,000 if it’s a couple) and health insurance (okay, that’s fair enough)

If a business person in America wants to set up a business in Ireland ? Forget it unless it’s going to be a multi million euro adventure because business permits can’t be got and the department have being twiddling their thumbs about drawing up rules on this for the past 5 years . (I accept the scheme is open to abuse )

But nah, come in apply for asylum without any visas etc and get a girl (whose legal or Irish) up the duff and bingo , a Citizen child might be your golden ticket . You don’t even need to be in a relationship with that mother so long as you got access and guardianship for the kid . Imagine if we go back to ore 2004 rules where neither parent needed to have been legal in the country in order for the anchor baby to be deemed an Irish Citizen ?

Sod that


The claims about the children being the victim is heart tugging emotional black mail horse manure ! The parents are the sole responsible person for them - if the parents want to play emotional blackmail so be it , they face the consequences when they are told - no, you won’t get status because of the child who we (and the parent) don’t consider as Irish

Technically , the Parliament can legislate on this without referring to the public . Opponents will **** themselves because they will be branded racist by unelectable Anti Irish muppets like Bacik .

However , not sure that the Government could ignore the 2004 referendum result and the is next to no evidence that the public view has softened !

In fact the avoidable migrant nonsense in 2015 onwards with nations not listening the the public ie people pointed out that economic migrants will flood the country - not just genuine asylum seekers- grown men pretending to be children etc - don’t think they will succeed

It’s of no coincidence that the asylum application numbers lowered from 2005 , especially those numbers from women who had come in pregnant

Someone pointed out that the asylum numbers were much lower in 2003 than they were in 2002 . They ignore why that was

In January 2003 the Supreme Court ruled as a majority , that parents of Irish citizen children , especially those who’d only come into the country in a short time, could be deported (Zambrano in Europe now over rules that )

As for the Irish Labour Party , they gave up the pretence of supporting Irish workers around 2009 when they went chasing the middle class vote - remember all the obnoxious young councillors - all of whom never did a days manual Labour or trade union work in their life ? Loads of hotties that would not go a miss down the law library . Most of them are long gone now . Few of any of them will be living near these people or have to wait on a waiting list to enrol their kids into the schools of their choice etc

This new found concern about Orish citizenship law has Aodhan O’Riordan’s finger prints all over them - but at least he is consistent . When this is the party who declared that gay marriage was the single most important human right issue of the 21st century (yes important topic etc) despite workers at all levels pinned to the collar due to the cuts cause by the last recession ... don’t expect them to watch the workers back - we all know that Rise / people before progress etc aren’t the alternative

Eric Cartman

Mike Foxtrot wrote: »

I think you need to re-read the posts that came before it. Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could or should have been but as was said, Some posters seemed to me to be confusing people's motives for voting (Yes) and the legal effect that it had on the constitution and the law.

What people voted for (legally) and why people voted a particular way (motivation) is not the same thing.

When a poster claimed that the 80% of people voted in favour of the amendment for a particular reason/s; I made the point that what people voted for (as per the constitutional amendment) was to allow to Oireachtas to decide the law.

I didn't said that people didn't have a clue what would happen if they voted yes; I also didn't say that the politicians that advocated Yes didn't express their intend.

The fact that this is repeatedly being explained proves that was not what people thought they were voting for.

On a technical level in 2004 , yes people voted to allow it to be legislated for.
On a practical and intent level in 2004 , 80% of Irish people voted to stop birth right citizenship and end that avenue for immigrants to remain. Thats in effect what most people still see that amendment as.

Changing the law to allow birthright citizenship is against the wishes of 80% of the Irish voting public in 2004 and I would wager a similar figure today.

a_squirrelman

Randy Archer wrote: »

Bingo , well observed .

Citizenship is easy to get . If the parent gets it, then the Irish born child who is not a citizen can apply immediately and will be deemed Irish at that point

The State already have a laced attitude towards over stayers and illegals and often give residency on the QT , rather than deport them

Even the EU doesn’t want use to have these jus soli rules . You’d have thought the Belgians would have cottoned on from the 2004 Chen Case (country involving Zambrano)

There’s no point having any immigration system if it rewards people who over stay or enter illegal . Any muppet can conceive a child . Some women just have a sneeze to get up the duff

The non EU migrants who get the rawest of deals are those who came and followed the rules , got their work permits at great expense and had to tolerate slavery like terms (not easy to get new permit if you leave a boss who you hate and he’s a ****) until they could get stamp 4 or Irish citizenship . Why bother when lads who are genetically inferior to you and have zero life and work skills can come in , endure a few years illegal (while quietly working illegally) and be handed a stamp 4 residency eventually - all because they got someone up the duff and the kid will now be an Orish citizen ?

The claims about the children being the victim is heart tugging emotional black mail horse manure ! The parents are the sole responsible person for them - if the parents want to play emotional blackmail so be it , they face the consequences when they are told - no, you won’t get status because of the child who we (and the parent) don’t consider as Irish

Technically , the Parliament can legislate on this without referring to the public . Opponents will **** themselves because they will be branded racist by unelectable Anti Irish muppets like Bacik .

However , not sure that the Government could ignore the 2004 referendum result and the is next to no evidence that the public view has softened !

In fact the avoidable migrant nonsense in 2015 onwards with nations not listening the the public ie people pointed out that economic migrants will flood the country - not just genuine asylum seekers- grown men pretending to be children etc - don’t think they will succeed

It’s of no coincidence that the asylum application numbers lowered from 2005 , especially those numbers from women who had come in pregnant

Someone pointed out that the asylum numbers were much lower in 2003 than they were in 2002 . They ignore why that was

In January 2003 the Supreme Court ruled as a majority , that parents of Irish citizen children , especially those who’d only come into the country in a short time, could be deported (Zambrano in Europe now over rules that )

Genetically inferior? Wtf. While I'm also against Labour and Bacik on this, you are a grade A c*nt.

Randy Archer

a_squirrelman wrote: »

Genetically inferior? Wtf. While I'm also against Labour and Bacik on this, you are a grade A c*nt.

Your opinion, triggered as it is by a false sense of awareness, is as useful as a chocolate tea pot

Listen child , stay out of topics that you don’t have the intellect to engage in ! I’m am more than happy to expose you for the bluffer that you are , but you have serious issues with the truth and you will run off to try and censure people

To claim that all people are equal is not only idiotic but down right dishonest and wishful thinking !

Some people are genetically and culturally superior to others , that’s life !

Genetically superior as in People riddled with disease and multiple genetic disorders. The immigration class to Ireland is full of them , they can’t work on medical grounds or are entirely unemployable - despite being ECONOMIC MIGRANTS

. Some tribes in countries like Somalia or Nigeria are superior than other tribes in the same nations . That’s just life

I’d be far more concern to help an non Eu migrant who had skills and education and is a led bodied who actually came here correctly via work permits than chancers who failed as asylum seekers on cock and bull stories (which, even with the help of lawyers , are incapable of telling their story ina. Consistent manner between each stage of the process) but while manage to get status via knocking up some bird and despite genuinely being unable and unfit to work due to a genetic or mental disorder

Know your place ! BETTER STILL , you clearly haven’t a scooby soo about the Irish immigration system over the past 20 years and have very little actual real life experience of it in your dealings - the good and the bad- so stay out of discussions that you can’t deal with reality . Spare us the faux triggers

Arthur Daley

If the PDs started up today, with Michael McDowell at the helm, would they be be allowed to get up off the ground? E.g. Invited on RTE, Newstalk etc. without a warning being issued

I'd say they'd be 'cancelled'

That's how much a tiny tiny number of fake left have become amplified since 2004.

a_squirrelman

Randy Archer wrote: »

Your opinion, triggered as it is by a false sense of awareness, is as useful as a chocolate tea pot

Listen child , stay out of topics that you don’t have the intellect to engage in ! I’m am more than happy to expose you for the bluffer that you are , but you have serious issues with the truth and you will run off to try and censure people

To claim that all people are equal is not only idiotic but down right dishonest and wishful thinking !

Some people are genetically and culturally superior to others , that’s life !

Genetically superior as in People riddled with disease and multiple genetic disorders. The immigration class to Ireland is full of them , they can’t work on medical grounds or are entirely unemployable - despite being ECONOMIC MIGRANTS

. Some tribes in countries like Somalia or Nigeria are superior than other tribes in the same nations . That’s just life

I’d be far more concern to help an non Eu migrant who had skills and education and is a led bodied who actually came here correctly via work permits than chancers who failed as asylum seekers on cock and bull stories (which, even with the help of lawyers , are incapable of telling their story ina. Consistent manner between each stage of the process) but while manage to get status via knocking up some bird and despite genuinely being unable and unfit to work due to a genetic or mental disorder

Know your place ! BETTER STILL , you clearly haven’t a scooby soo about the Irish immigration system over the past 20 years and have very little actual real life experience of it in your dealings - the good and the bad- so stay out of discussions that you can’t deal with reality . Spare us the faux triggers

Listen mr patronising a-hole. While your rant was an entertaining read, you aren't the one who decides who has an opinion on this or not.
I think there should be no change, I think the measures we have in place are generous enough.
I don't know what you mean by bluffing, I'm as annoyed as all the other posters on here about what Labour wants to overturn.
But your comment on genetically inferior is and was a c**tish comment. Own your words.
I see and saw the results of the anchor-babies loophole. You don't own the topic.

Bonniedog

Arthur Daley wrote: »

If the PDs started up today, with Michael McDowell at the helm, would they be be allowed to get up off the ground? E.g. Invited on RTE, Newstalk etc. without a warning being issued

I'd say they'd be 'cancelled'

That's how much a tiny tiny number of fake left have become amplified since 2004.

Was just talking about that to someone last night.

The consensus has so narrowed here that all parties in Dáil could be in same party, other than maybe Aontú because they are opposed to abortion. They tick the boxes on all the other leftie sh1te.

Unfortunately there is no credible alternative as SF's pretence at being nationalist still holds, and the conservatives are tainted by media focus on balloons like Doherty.

There is nothing then to attract the FG, FF and SF voters who are uneasy about the headlong leap into student's union wokeism.

This latest episode demonstrates that even the Government appear terrified to stand over a decision that was not only ratified by 80% of the population, but which was necesscary as FG recognised at the time to prevent Irish citizenship being turned into a mockery.

MontgomeryClift

Arthur Daley wrote: »

If the PDs started up today, with Michael McDowell at the helm, would they be be allowed to get up off the ground? E.g. Invited on RTE, Newstalk etc. without a warning being issued

I'd say they'd be 'cancelled'

That's how much a tiny tiny number of fake left have become amplified since 2004.

I've been thinking about how much has changed since 2004. I disliked Progressive Fáil on account of the materialistic feeding frenzy they encouraged.

Yet Michael McDowell was honest about fake asylum claims and "cock and bull stores," as he called them. Comments like that would indeed get him cancelled now.

2004 was a time when Justin Barrett could be part of the Questions and Answers panel. I never thought I'd get nostalgic for those days.

Eric Cartman

MontgomeryClift wrote: »

I've been thinking about how much has changed since 2004. I disliked Progressive Fáil on account of the materialistic feeding frenzy they encouraged.

Yet Michael McDowell was honest about fake asylum claims and "cock and bull stores," as he called them. Comments like that would indeed get him cancelled now.

2004 was a time when Justin Barrett could be part of the Questions and Answers panel. I never thought I'd get nostalgic for those days.

Political discourse is now offensive in itself and anything perceived to be even slightly right of centre is labelled far right and censored.

The last person who got to speak out was peter casey and despite those being reasonable views that even a pre 2011 politician in ireland could say, nowadays its perceived as ‘far right evil’

Bonniedog

The ironic thing about Casey is that after beating that McHugh one in the Euros he did an embarrassing interview with that woke rag Hot Press in which he more or less apologised for everything he had said or had imputed to him and assured some bearded tokers that he was side with abortion, mass immigration and so on and so forth.

Think he got around 5% in Donegal in generals?

Needs someone to stand up to the bullying who has a bit of balls (ore female equivalent) and tell the witch hunters to take a hike. There are a few indo TDs of that ilk but that's it. And the odd radio journalist and maybe two online news sites.

Eric Cartman

Bonniedog wrote: »

The ironic thing about Casey is that after beating that McHugh one in the Euros he did an embarrassing view with that woke rag Hot Press in which he more or less apologised for everything he had said or had imputed to him and assured some bearded tokers that he was side with abortion, mass immigration and so on and so forth.

Think he got around 5% in Donegal in generals?

Needs someone to stand up to the bullying who has a bit of balls (ore female equivalent) and tell the witch hunters to take a hike. There are a few indo TDs of that ilk but that's it. And the odd radio journalist and maybe two online news sites.

I have to say I would love Niall Boylan to run in the euros, dont think he’d make it in a general but by christ its about time we had somebody with some sense and balls in a position to speak for the silenced majority.

fly_agaric

Mike Foxtrot wrote: »

I think you need to re-read the posts that came before it. Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could or should have been but as was said, Some posters seemed to me to be confusing people's motives for voting (Yes) and the legal effect that it had on the constitution and the law.

What people voted for (legally) and why people voted a particular way (motivation) is not the same thing.

When a poster claimed that the 80% of people voted in favour of the amendment for a particular reason/s; I made the point that what people voted for (as per the constitutional amendment) was to allow to Oireachtas to decide the law.

I didn't said that people didn't have a clue what would happen if they voted yes; I also didn't say that the politicians that advocated Yes didn't express their intend.

I dip in and out and may not have read every post in your exchange.
If you were not trying to imply that people did not really know what they were voting for (in terms of the practical effects) - okay.
In all our referenda I'd say the numbers who are fully aware of the text change to the Constitution that is being made and all the potential legal ramifications of it are small. That should not matter. They rely on politicians and moreso the Referendum Commission to explain these clearly and honestly. They also rely on politicians to tell them the truth about how they will legislate if a change allows them to do so.

Anyway I'd be unsure Labour would have the public on their side with this policy, which does go directly against the intent of that referendum.
There certainly is a very noisy socially (but not economically...!) left constituency in Ireland now that was far less visible back then.
The numbers might be different to the referendum but it is hard to tell because immigration is not really an election issue in Ireland. That citizenship referendum is the only time I can remember it becoming a bit of a public issue because it was plain there was a problem that needed solving at the time. People have other more pressing concerns at the moment.

Baggly

Randy Archer wrote: »

Your opinion, triggered as it is by a false sense of awareness, is as useful as a chocolate tea pot

Listen child , stay out of topics that you don’t have the intellect to engage in ! I’m am more than happy to expose you for the bluffer that you are , but you have serious issues with the truth and you will run off to try and censure people

To claim that all people are equal is not only idiotic but down right dishonest and wishful thinking !

Some people are genetically and culturally superior to others , that’s life !

Genetically superior as in People riddled with disease and multiple genetic disorders. The immigration class to Ireland is full of them , they can’t work on medical grounds or are entirely unemployable - despite being ECONOMIC MIGRANTS

. Some tribes in countries like Somalia or Nigeria are superior than other tribes in the same nations . That’s just life

I’d be far more concern to help an non Eu migrant who had skills and education and is a led bodied who actually came here correctly via work permits than chancers who failed as asylum seekers on cock and bull stories (which, even with the help of lawyers , are incapable of telling their story ina. Consistent manner between each stage of the process) but while manage to get status via knocking up some bird and despite genuinely being unable and unfit to work due to a genetic or mental disorder

Know your place ! BETTER STILL , you clearly haven’t a scooby soo about the Irish immigration system over the past 20 years and have very little actual real life experience of it in your dealings - the good and the bad- so stay out of discussions that you can’t deal with reality . Spare us the faux triggers

a_squirrelman wrote: »

Listen mr patronising a-hole. While your rant was an entertaining read, you aren't the one who decides who has an opinion on this or not.
I think there should be no change, I think the measures we have in place are generous enough.
I don't know what you mean by bluffing, I'm as annoyed as all the other posters on here about what Labour wants to overturn.
But your comment on genetically inferior is and was a c**tish comment. Own your words.
I see and saw the results of the anchor-babies loophole. You don't own the topic.

Mod

Both of you dont post in this thread again.

Baggly

Mod

Zombie thread closed. Please start a dedicated thread for any current developments separate but related to the topic.