Labour want to bring back auto-birthright citizenship

TomTomTim

TomTomTim wrote: »

It's almost like groups who grew up in countries with many Marxists, ended up hating them passionately, and justly so. Marxists are dangerous and reckless, they should be viewed with the same contempt that is far right is.

Strange that... People who endured socialism don't want anything to do with it given the chance.. wonder why....


In before "but thats not real socialism"

Richard Hillman

Ivana Bacik: Children who are born in Ireland belong here https://jrnl.ie/5276579




I think i am starting to worked out what Labour's obsession is on this. They know they have become irrelevant, so feel they need a lefty-Liberal referendum to coerce their new target market to gain support.

Bacik was clutching at straws with this and deliberately misrepresenting the facts on her main points.

1. The referendum was passed by a majority of 58%. She says that to try and hoodwink younger people into thinking it was close. It passed 79-21. There was 58% between them, massive massive majority. Not 58-42.

2. There was a massive spike on baby's with foreign mothers. But this doesn't account for foreign mothers to Irish fathers.
Like Really, Ivana? How many Irish fathers-foreign mothers were there back then? I would hazard a guess at maybe even less than 100.

She also mentioned the amount of EU parents with children born in Ireland. Ireland had **** all EU immigration back in 2004. Ireland started to welcome people from Poland and Eastern Europe that year on May 1st. The referendum was about 6 weeks later. The stats being used were from before that.

Sir Oxman

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Ivana Bacik: Children who are born in Ireland belong here https://jrnl.ie/5276579




I think i am starting to worked out what Labour's obsession is on this. They know they have become irrelevant, so feel they need a lefty-Liberal referendum to coerce their new target market to gain support.

Bacik was clutching at straws with this and deliberately misrepresenting the facts on her main points.

1. The referendum was passed by a majority of 58%. She says that to try and hoodwink younger people into thinking it was close. It passed 79-21. There was 58% between them, massive massive majority. Not 58-42.

2. There was a massive spike on baby's with foreign mothers. But this doesn't account for foreign mothers to Irish fathers.
Like Really, Ivana? How many Irish fathers-foreign mothers were there back then? I would hazard a guess at maybe even less than 100.

She also mentioned the amount of EU parents with children born in Ireland. Ireland had **** all EU immigration back in 2004. Ireland started to welcome people from Poland and Eastern Europe that year on May 1st. The referendum was about 6 weeks later. The stats being used were from before that.

Yep, all I got from that is that Ms Bacik is very much prepared to outright misrepresent and lie in order to get her and the agenda's way - the slithery way she's exposed her way of doing things in that one piece is vomitous. Any chance of the self-appointed factcheckers of thejournal eh, factchecking that? I know it's an opinion piece but it is also basically Lab policy and PBP and SD and SF and Green and FF no doubt.

She can't argue honestly because this 'moral' crusade, dependent on younger people swallowing her guff and a good proportion of other people who farm out their thinking to charlatans like her, will fall flat on it's arse on its first airing and she knows it.

a_squirrelman

FFS, if this grows legs and actually gains momentum it will be a disaster. I can see the pulling on the heartstrings that they will try.

I mean, it's fairly easy to get citizenship in Ireland once you arrive legally. Hang around a few years and you're naturalised. bim bam done.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

TomTomTim wrote: »

It's almost like groups who grew up in countries with many Marxists, ended up hating them passionately, and justly so. Marxists are dangerous and reckless, they should be viewed with the same contempt that is far right is.

The far right paramilitaries have killed far, far more innocent people than FARC ever have.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Strange that... People who endured socialism don't want anything to do with it given the chance.. wonder why....


In before "but thats not real socialism"

As for Colombia, they haven't endured socialism because the country is about as right wing as you can get. There used to be plenty of people fleeing the far right into socialist Venezuela. Of course, now things are the other way around.

TomTomTim

Ivana Bacik: Children who are born in Ireland belong here

The Journal is nothing but one sided propaganda, who exist to give a platform to anyone on their side to wants to get their way. These outlets are so audacious in the last few years that they don't even pretend to be balanced anymore.

Richard Hillman

a_squirrelman wrote: »

FFS, if this grows legs and actually gains momentum it will be a disaster. I can see the pulling on the heartstrings that they will try.

I mean, it's fairly easy to get citizenship in Ireland once you arrive legally. Hang around a few years and you're naturalised. bim bam done.

It would be very hard for individuals to go on media outlets and argue against it too. You'd be risking everything, your safety, your business/employment opportunities etc. We all know what they are like.

Luckily the likes of the EU would not be happy about it and we find Emmanuel Macron in a very bad mood of late.

AlekSmart

Wibbs wrote: »

Yeah the mainstream parties were racist. And 80% of Irish people.
Nonsense. Here's a link from that renowned right wing nazi mouthpiece wikipedia...

The first significant mass-migration of Nigerians to Ireland comprised Nigerians from the United Kingdom. Most came only with the intention of extending their UK visas and then returning, but the ones who failed settled down in Ireland as illegal immigrants.[4] After the landmark High Court case Fajujonu v. Minister for Justice, which prohibited deportation of parents of Irish-born children, more Nigerians began coming to Ireland.[5] Then, from around 1996, during Ireland's "Celtic Tiger" period of rapid economic expansion, they came seeking either opportunities for jobs, benefits or to set up niche businesses aimed at other African migrants providing goods and services which they expected would not otherwise be available in the Irish market.[6] Between 2002 and 2006, the population of Nigerian citizens in Ireland grew by 81.7%, according to census figures, making them the country's fourth-largest migrant group at the time.[7] Many recent migrants are asylum-seekers.[8] However, from 2002 to 2009 the number of Nigerian applicants for asylum fell sharply, dropping from a peak of 4,050 to just 569.[9] The sharp drop in Nigerian asylum applicants was due to the obtaining residency via parentage of Irish citizen children or marriage to Irish and EU spouses and due to the high failure rates in the granting of asylum and the granting of leave to remain.

Yeah the ease of entry and gaining of citizenship had bugger all to do with it. And that's just from one non EU source. Interestingly or worryingly further down that page under Langauge we have this snippet: However, they are strongly likely to feel that they do not have many values in common with Irish people.[36] Oh yeah, that's the kinda demographic we need. :rolleyes:

Ya think Wibbs ?

Let's face it,to the likes of Mr Howlin and Ms Bacik "not having values in common" with the Irish,would be seen as a major plus point.

doublejobbing 2

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I


She also mentioned the amount of EU parents with children born in Ireland. Ireland had **** all EU immigration back in 2004. .

I would hazard a guess most EU migrants in Dublin back then were French, Spanish etc working low paid language jobs in admin and call centres., hospitality etc.

This quirky bunch are more like backpackers than anything. Virtually none of them having children in this period.

By "EU migrants" I would assume she is lumping in Irish women who were born to Irish parents in Britain but returned here among that number.

Every single class I had in school had an "English" kid, I'm going to hedge a bet that circa 5% of Irish people in their 30s and 40s were born in the UK.

Ffs anybody who follows Irish underage football could tell you that in the last few years we seem to have had more players of Nigerian origin who grew up in London (i.e. were born here for convenience) vs ones of that origin who actually grew up here.

Rolo2010

doublejobbing 2 wrote: »

I would hazard a guess most EU migrants in Dublin back then were French, Spanish etc working low paid language jobs in admin and call centres., hospitality etc.

This quirky bunch are more like backpackers than anything. Virtually none of them having children in this period.

By "EU migrants" I would assume she is lumping in Irish women who were born to Irish parents in Britain but returned here among that number.

Every single class I had in school had an "English" kid, I'm going to hedge a bet that circa 5% of Irish people in their 30s and 40s were born in the UK.

Ffs anybody who follows Irish underage football could tell you that in the last few years we seem to have had more players of Nigerian origin who grew up in London (i.e. were born here for convenience) vs ones of that origin who actually grew up here.

Another 5% likely have a parent who born in the UK to Irish parents but moved as an adult. I know a good few.

biko

It's funny how the socialists want this.
It doesn't benefit the Irish one iota.

Kermit.de.frog

https://twitter.com/aoifegracemoore/status/1331207169077899267

It boggles the mind why they are pushing this.

Labour seem to be asking "What can we propose to make ourselves even more toxic to the electorate?'

Kivaro

I posted this over in the multicultural thread, but it might be more suitable here:

Trying to think about Labour's motive for going against the will of the vast majority of the population who opposed anchor babies ......
Labour, as a party, are done, and will never amount to much in the future due to their constant misdeeds over the years. If only they stuck with the workers and their votes, but instead they decided that the social welfare vote was more important, but that vote is a very crowded market. Between that and the Irish water saga, the indigenous have been burned by Labour and will not forget that burn. Most of my family have always voted for Labour but never again. Maybe Labour will now try to garner the non-Irish vote in Ireland, which is why they are focusing on that demographic now.

The irony is that the more that Ireland turns to a defacto open border type system of inward migration, the more that the natives will lose control over our country. Labour and Sinn Fein and many "progressives" in Fine Gael (e.g. Simon Conveney) want this to happen for different reasons, which is economical and cultural suicide.

We should expect RTE to grab onto this topic with all its might like they did with Direct Provision, and proclaim that anybody who does not sign this petition or support the proposed new legislation to repeal the 27th amendment will be designated as racists. What has our country come to?

The_Kew_Tour

Mind boggles. It really does.

Is this the most important issue in this country at the minute?

Maybe I am wrong, I didn’t realise the country was doing well at minute and will continue to be that way in near future.

Good luck to the young hoping house prices go down now.:pac:

Wibbs

Note the replies. The majority of which are nope, head off with that nonsense. But they'll keep pushing it, with soft "polls" and stories pushed in the media of sad eyed children and calling racism on anyone who dares to ask the obvious bloody questions. And one thing they will not do is put it to a democratic vote of the Irish people. They already know the result. Yet that muppet with only a few thousand voters behind him from a party that is a busted flush is attempting to subvert Irish democracy?

Wibbs

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Good luck to the young hoping house prices go down now.:pac:

I take it you've read this thread where a foreigner lands in Ireland from the fascist hellhole that is Canada and within 18 months gets a luxury apartment in leafy suburban south Dublin through social housing when thousands of Irish people born and bred can be left languishing on the housing lists for year and then he has the hard neck to complain about "discrimination" because he can't access the gym(but has 500 quid in readies to access another one down the road)? Never mind an Irish Times "journalist" who is so confidence in her tone deaf "progressive" mindset that she happily reported it and put him front and centre?

More of that and we'll almost certainly see an opening for a much more right wing party, ro a swing to the right for an existing one and if they were willing to stamp down on that, throw people like him out on their ear and protect the Irish and legal and wanted migrants I'd vote for them in a heartbeat.

statesaver

Any other European country or other countries with a similar campaign as the Labour party here ?

Hamachi

statesaver wrote: »

Any other European country or other countries with a similar campaign as the Labour party here ?

This is utter insanity. The lunatics truly have (or at least attempting to) take over the asylum. I'm bewildered as to why an unelectable cretin like Ivana Bacik is enabled to impose her will on the Irish people..

Can anybody who is more politically astute than me predict how likely this is to get traction?

The_Kew_Tour

Wibbs wrote: »

I take it you've read this thread where a foreigner lands in Ireland from the fascist hellhole that is Canada and within 18 months gets a luxury apartment in leafy suburban south Dublin through social housing when thousands of Irish people born and bred can be left languishing on the housing lists for year and then he has the hard neck to complain about "discrimination" because he can't access the gym(but has 500 quid in readies to access another one down the road)? Never mind an Irish Times "journalist" who is so confidence in her tone deaf "progressive" mindset that she happily reported it and put him front and centre?

More of that and we'll almost certainly see an opening for a much more right wing party, ro a swing to the right for an existing one and if they were willing to stamp down on that, throw people like him out on their ear and protect the Irish and legal and wanted migrants I'd vote for them in a heartbeat.

I'm shaking my head here.

Wibbs, I dont know what to think anymore.

If this country was high flying and everyone had their share of the pie then fair enough I say.

We are in recession mode and yet we are paying thousands, hell millions, to help people live a lavish lifestyle while so many are only getting by day to day.

I'm lucky I have my own place, but I worry for future of few relatives and couple of friends who are working just to get by day by day.

The funny thing is though Wibbs, one of my friends who could do with all the help he gets would vote for one of these parties in the morning. Bonkers!

At this rate I'm starting to think maybe they're somthing to people who believe in Chemtrails cause somebody is being brain washed and sniffing something

ExMachina1000

Ireland was the last EU country to change the rules regarding birthright citizenship.
We are fully in line with our EU neighbors.

Any change from this would make Ireland an outlier, a target and would threaten collective Eu immigration border security.

It would be of absolutely zero benefit to us or the EU.

ExMachina1000

From the labour petition explanation:

"We do not need another referendum to reverse this. The 2004 amendment gave the Oireachtas the power to legislate for more generous pathways to citizenship.

The Irish Nationality and Citizenship (Naturalisation of Minors Born in Ireland) Bill 2018 would provide a pathway to citizenship for children born in Ireland.

It was passed through Second Stage by a majority of Senators on 21 November 2018; Senators from Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and the Green Party supported it, although Fine Gael opposed it.

The Bill is being brought back before the Seanad for ‘Committee Stage’ in the first week of December"

Happy to ignore the referendum result.
All eyes on the Seanad early December!

Labour are trying to appeal to a portion of the population that in my opinion won't vote for them while there are alternative more hard left options.

Its all good and well to pretend that this is about the children but the Zambrano judgment which happened fairly recently has established in law that you can't refuse a parent a right to live and work in the EU if their child is an EU citizen.

DeadHand

The Labour Party, and anyone who supports this treachery, can no longer call themselves democrats.

ohnonotgmail

DeadHand wrote: »

The Labour Party, and anyone who supports this treachery, can no longer call themselves democrats.

what is undemocratic about introducing a bill in the dail?

Wibbs

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Happy to ignore the referendum result.

They wouldn't ignore all the other ones(thankfully) and they passed with much lower margins and have have some similar legal wriggle roomr. The 2004 vote was one of the clearest decisions by the Irish electorate in any referendum in the history of this state.

All eyes on the Seanad early December!

I would be surprised if this actually gets through, because the other members of the EU wouldn't be happy about it, because citizenship tourism here means open access to the rest of the EU. We'd be top of the migrant list in Europe. Which means FF and FG will likely oppose it.

Wibbs

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

what is undemocratic about introducing a bill in the dail?

Nothing on the surface, but when said bill seeks to overturn a massive majority of the Irish electorate then questions should be asked. Would you be happy with a bill to roll back on the Repeal or SSM referendum results, even though the results of those had much smaller margins? I wouldn't be.

The Irish people spoke and spoke very clearly, so ask them to speak again and if the result is different then fine. But they won't, because they well know the result and it can't be slanted like a poll in the Journal.

iebamm2580

didnt leo already say there has to be a pathway but not automatic citizenship for babies born here?

iebamm2580

iebamm2580 wrote: »

didnt leo already say there has to be a pathway but not automatic citizenship for babies born here?

The program for government says that they want to introduce a way for illegal immigrants to be able to naturalise themselves.

I'm not sure I see it happening in practicality because you'd have to admit you'd been working under the table and something like this would happen to whoever employed you (https://www.thesun.ie/news/6148932/joe-biden-pub-visit-tax-bill-curse/) which I would reckon would effect a certain portion of FF/FG electorate/donors

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Nothing on the surface, but when said bill seeks to overturn a massive majority of the Irish electorate then questions should be asked. Would you be happy with a bill to roll back on the Repeal or SSM referendum results, even though the results of those had much smaller margins? I wouldn't be.

I did point out to people the possibility of this about abortion and the possibility of a dail being returned,which could outlaw it again.....i was laughed at(sat on fence on that referendum,until morning of the vote)irish politics is filled with people who dont think medium to long-term

,the SSM cant be reversed in the dail afaik

The Irish people spoke and spoke very clearly, so ask them to speak again and if the result is different then fine. But they won't, because they well know the result and it can't be slanted like a poll in the Journal.

Even as someone isnt diametrically opposed to the idea of someone born here,automatically being irish*,it would be shamefully underhand and wrong not to put it to the people

*i see eastern european lads in work kids,born here 7/8 years,effectively fully irish friends,proper blaa accents,play camoige etc etc,i find it hard to argue,they shouldnt get irish citizenships,as opposed to some yank,who never set foot here,but has an irish granny gauranted one??

Much like the dail could in theory ban abortions,there is a theorical chance,however slim of freedom movement etc breaking down/polish exit etc in europe.....its a really difficult issue to decide on,and far from black/white.....or wheter id vote for/spoil a vote on it,is entirely undecided