Stealing milk. MOD NOTE POST #1

Fighting Tao

I don’t see omnivores holding a weekly protest on College Green like vegans do (did before the pandemic).

nofools

s1ippy wrote: »

Jesus I'm neither vegetarian nor vegan but the hatred in here for that particular choice is puerile. Killing and hurting animals sucks, and if you have to hate a group of people who are uncomfortable with that to be happy with your own life choices, you should really take a look at yourself.

I have no problem with the lifestyle choice but **** me I hate propaganda and bad science.

The milk is murder screecher with the dairy farmer mate. A fairy tale.

White Clover

the beer revolu wrote: »

In my experience, they express their beliefs about diet choice far less than the average omnivore.
Everyone has a right to express their beliefs just as everyone has a right not to listen.

Perhaps it's just that the vegan side are far better at getting their argument across. In any debate I come across on the subject, I usually find myself siding with the vegans. Their "facts" appear to stack up better. And I eat meat regularly!
Maybe the meat and dairy lobbyists need to do a better job.

The only "facts" stated in this thread are that "suffering" cows produce loads of milk and that it would be as easy to grow a tillage crop instead of grass all over the country!
As Pee Flynn said, "you should try it sometime".

Capt'n Midnight

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

is palm oil the great savior?

No.

It takes something like 120 years to become carbon neutral when you take into account the clearing of bogs or forests into fields. And there's the unemployed orangutangs and whatnot.

It's only saving grace is that it is the cheapest edible oil. It's the corn syrup of lipids. So it makes for cheaper ingredients which means more profit.

I didn't say it's saving grace was from your perspective.

Thelonious Monk

Dakota Dan wrote: »

Yep farmers are so well paid for their work that they have to lie so that they can keep their millions flowing in.

The journalist John Gibbons often calls out the IFA/IFJ on their lies and propaganda, he wrote a great article last week, worth a read.
Dairy/beef farming isn't going anywhere, however the fact that the whole island is devoted to it isn't healthy for the land and biodiversity. The pollution of waterways has become a big problem too since the rush to dairy in recent years.

http://www.thinkorswim.ie/stirring-up-tensions-between-farmers-and-environmentalists/

the beer revolu

White Clover wrote: »

The only "facts" stated in this thread are that "suffering" cows produce loads of milk and that it would be as easy to grow a tillage crop instead of grass all over the country!
As Pee Flynn said, "you should try it sometime".

I'd hardly call this thread a debate! It's just shouting and mud slinging, mostly.
I'm talking about when both sides are given a platform to put forward their argument. Tv, radio, that kind of thing.

the beer revolu

the beer revolu wrote: »

I'd hardly call this thread a debate! It's just shouting and mud slinging, mostly.
I'm talking about when both sides are given a platform to put forward their argument. Tv, radio, that kind of thing.

So only in specific scenarios that suit what you’re saying? Would you go away out of that.

White Clover

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

The journalist John Gibbons often calls out the IFA/IFJ on their lies and propaganda, he wrote a great article last week, worth a read.
Dairy/beef farming isn't going anywhere, however the fact that the whole island is devoted to it isn't healthy for the land and biodiversity. The pollution of waterways has become a big problem too since the rush to dairy in recent years.

http://www.thinkorswim.ie/stirring-up-tensions-between-farmers-and-environmentalists/

I suggest you and John Gibbons check his claims in that article. He is quoting gross figures, of course what matters are net figures. Science doesn't lie. Do try and keep up!

Thelonious Monk

White Clover wrote: »

I suggest you and John Gibbons check his claims in that article. He is quoting gross figures, of course what matters is net figures. Science doesn't lie. Do try and keep up!

Oh sorry mister farmer you're right, I've completely changed my mind now on everything and will go out and buy some milk. How could I ever doubt the guardians of the countryside...

White Clover

the beer revolu wrote: »

I'd hardly call this thread a debate! It's just shouting and mud slinging, mostly.
I'm talking about when both sides are given a platform to put forward their argument. Tv, radio, that kind of thing.

Lol! Put away the shovel.

Markcheese

Jequ0n wrote: »

Already guilty by choice of username

And worse , I work on a dairy farm ...

White Clover

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Oh sorry mister farmer you're right, I've completely changed my mind now on everything and will go out and buy some milk. How could I ever doubt the guardians of the countryside...

I don't care what you do, I'm not trying to change anyones mind, unlike yourselves! All I care about is that the information presented is not false, that's all.

Thelonious Monk

White Clover wrote: »

I don't care what you do, I'm not trying to change anyones mind, unlike yourselves! All I care about is that the information presented is not false, that's all.

You think it's false because you're worried about money. Anyone looking at these things objectively doesn't think they're false.
Anyway we know how these discussions go, endless and gets nowhere. Good luck with your farming business!

screamer

Oh sweet Jesus give me patience. The cows have calves to produce milk...... not the other way around. The calves are in a lot of cases an unwanted product of milk production. Stealing milk.... my ass. Without milk production those cows would just be sent for slaughter or maybe not exist at all. Now I’m off to munch on some organic nettles here.......

Capt'n Midnight

Has anyone mentioned Margaret Thatcher milk snatcher yet ?

my money says it was her.

White Clover

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

You think it's false because you're worried about money. Anyone looking at these things objectively doesn't think they're false.
Anyway we know how these discussions go, endless and gets nowhere. Good luck with your farming business!

Of course your idols manufacturing and processing this fake vegan milk and meat are doing it for charity!

Markcheese

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

You think it's false because you're worried about money. Anyone looking at these things objectively doesn't think they're false.
Anyway we know how these discussions go, endless and gets nowhere. Good luck with your farming business!

Farmers farm , currently, ( and for quiet some time ) the way to make a profit in farming in Ireland is dairy ,
Farms are businesses , if theres a better way to make money in farming ,farners will give it a go ...

nofools

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

You think it's false because you're worried about money. Anyone looking at these things objectively doesn't think they're false.
Anyway we know how these discussions go, endless and gets nowhere. Good luck with your farming business!

I'm not a farmer and would agree that some of the vegan stuff is propaganda, very transparently.

When it comes to the environment they haven't a clue and commit some awful errors in terms of scale or secondary worse effects.

I would listen to them more probably if that didn't leave a bad taste in my mouth.

nofools

White Clover wrote: »

Of course your idols manufacturing and processing this fake vegan milk and meat are doing it for charity!

And with zero deforestation, excessive water consumption in arrid areas, no excess transport costs to ship materials around the world.

I'm an 110% convinced that if all irish sourced dairy was replaced with a nut/soy alternative it would be an disaster in terms of habitat destruction and increased CO2 per calorie consumed.

The calculations are done for grain fed animals and then arm wrestled into giving the answer they want.

The science is deplorable

Markcheese

nofools wrote: »

And with zero deforestation, excessive water consumption in arrid areas, no excess transport costs to ship materials around the world.

I'm an 110% convinced that if all irish sourced dairy was replaced with a nut/soy alternative it would be an disaster in terms of habitat destruction and increased CO2 per calorie consumed.

The calculations are done for grain fed animals and then arm wrestled into giving the answer they want.

The science is deplorable

It honestly isn't as simple as all that , soya is a big component in dairy feeds too, now sometimes it's soya hulls , most Irish dairy cows are going to be fed between 500kg to 1 ton of dairy feed ( meal ) per year , herds that produce milk for bottling all year round probably a lot more than that .. so foreign habitat destruction is included in real milk too , there is risk to waterways in Ireland from increasing waterways , plus more grass lands here are becoming green" ryegrass " monocultures ...
So not all is rosey and wonderfull here either..
Still things here in Ireland are better than other shed and grain based systems in some other countries ..
And can still be a lot better here ..

nofools

Thanks Mark

Some form of meal is cheaper or easier?

What happened to hay or sileage?

I am assuming we didn't have to import feed traditionally.

_Brian

Do not abuse the poster

Kylta

auspicious wrote: »

Every choice we make has an outcome. It is either positive or negative. Our choices impact the world around us. They can be insignificant or detrimental to another's wellbeing.
Advertising and societal conditioning can often, all the time, lead us to make choices which blind us to the outcomes. If we don't see the outcomes, the fallout, if we are blind to the negative repercussions, we will usually continue without thinking. Until it is pointed out.
The maternal bond begins in pregnancy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKWJBMeyxzU

-A closed thread in Current Affairs but it is an exquisitely current affair to some mothers.

I actually gave up milk years ago

Potential-Monke

Don't drink it as often anymore, but used to love a pint of milk with the dinner when I was younger. I still like it, but I don't really eat cereals or have it with dinner anymore. Might drink a litre or 2 if I decided to go mad and get a bottle of Tia Maria to drink it with. But I do like cheese! I love cheese actually...

Same as anything else in the world, if there's enough of a push for it, eventually it will become the norm. But I can't see this happening. Might happen in some places, but overall no, we're a meat eating, milk drinking country for the most part, and that won't change. I dare any person to remove my plate of bacon and cabbage from in front of me. I'd be adding lower arm and hand to that dinner if they tried.

I do not agree, however, with the likes of lamb, veal or any meat made from the young of an animal. At least give it a chance to grow up before you eat it. I'm also against any "sport" that involves the slaughter of an animal for nothing more than the craic. Like those pheasant twats giving out that they can't release and immediately shoot their cage born and bred pheasants. If they're doing it for the meat, they don't need to make a sport of it.

Edit: Also, proper milk, none of this diet/lower fat/fat free crap. Full fat pasteurized and homogenized milk please!

Kylta

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Ah....help.....vegans are invading After Hours!

Its genuinely a good thing I think, has long as the bring some sauages and a rashers im ok with that

Markcheese

nofools wrote: »

Thanks Mark

Some form of meal is cheaper or easier?

What happened to hay or sileage?

I am assuming we didn't have to import feed traditionally.

They're still on a diet mainly of grass in spring summer and autumn ,silage when there's limited grass , the meal would be a supplement, sometimes very low levels ,
Traditionally we always imported some animal feed too,
In general ,they're on a largely grass diet , and as soon as the weather allows theyre going to be in the fields grazing it ,. The herds are often considerably bigger than they were, but cow housing and cow tracks are usually better too , ( for the cow )..

Bass Reeves

Ireland is an unusual country. It's is a meat and milk producing paradise. It struggles with grains and vegetables with the exception of the he humble spud.

To grow grain we gave to use sprays more than any major grain growing country. Yes we get huge crops but we need sprays to prevent funguses and aphids from damaging the crops. Within 2-3 years of stopping those sprays our crop levels would drop to a bit with a ton an acre....that if we could get it dry enough for human consumption.

Yes we can grow brassicas, carrots and parsnips but without artificial intervention we are relatively unsuccessful growing the more exotic fruit and veg.

However the humble cow was always a part of Irish history. Going back to even ancient lore cattle have been mentioned in the old Irish saga's. Our natural farming advantage gas always been in producing milk, beef and lamb. During the 1700 and 1800's the world price for butter was set at the Cork butter market.

Oats was the only grain that historically grew well in Ireland, yes we managed to grow some wheat especially in the sunny south east of the country but we were relatively unsuccessful across the rest of the country.

However through out our history milk along with oats before the arrival of the humble spud was the staple diet along with meat and fish. The arrival.of the spud created a balanced diet with buttermilk that was unrivalled anywhere in the world at the time. However it was the root cause of he famine. In earlier times unused buttermilk and excess food was used to fatten pigs and again with the arrival of spuds this practice expanded.

More and more Nutritionist are now becoming more outspoken against veganism. There is problems with the diet in young children and teenagers, pregnant women and older people. As well calories intake for really active people athletes and physical demanding work is problematic. Finally studies are showing a higher level of neurological issue with veganism such as dementia in older people as well as depression, memory impairment psychosis

While we may eat a bit too much meat and dairy products eliminating them completely create more problems as it solves

banie01

the beer revolt wrote: »

I must lead an extremely sheltered life.
In my 50 years, I have never once been preached to about my eating habits by a vegan or vegetarian. I have known and do know many vegans and vegetarians.
Where does all this preaching take place?

And sorry, but opening a thread about veganism and then complaining that you are being preached to, doesn't cut it.

Let's disregard this thread or indeed any other vegan thread being the trigger for complaints about vegan preaching.

Lets instead take the video the OP included in the 1st post?
Do you not think that is a link to a person on youtube preaching?
Do you think the target of his diatribe is those committed to the vegan lifestyle?
Or is he attempting to shame those who like a glass of milk?
Who is the target audience for the video?

Let's draw some inferences from the video, in particular, the fact that it's lecturer is on the beg.
The video if you actually go to youtube includes a link to their Patreon.
The Youtube channel is also monetised.
This lad who I think is an Oxbridge Philosophy student is monetising his arguments. So he can buy more equipment, build better production values and...
Reach more with his preach.
Its almost as bad as passing a church collection plate, but at least I can get gluten-free Jesus on Sunday and meet a few friends for a natter.

I am back at Uni as a mature student currently and when we were on campus, the amount of vegan lifestyle preaching encountered was quite large.
I'm glad you haven't encountered the new style prosytelizing vegan as yet.
I wish I could say the same.

the beer revolu

banie01 wrote: »

Let's disregard this thread or indeed any other vegan thread being the trigger for complaints about vegan preaching.

Lets instead take the video the OP included in the 1st post?
Do you not think that is a link to a person on youtube preaching?
Do you think the target of his diatribe is those committed to the vegan lifestyle?
Or is he attempting to shame those who like a glass of milk?
Who is the target audience for the video?

Let's draw some inferences from the video, in particular, the fact that it's lecturer is on the beg.
The video if you actually go to youtube includes a link to their Patreon.
The Youtube channel is also monetised.
This lad who I think is an Oxbridge Philosophy student is monetising his arguments. So he can buy more equipment, build better production values and...
Reach more with his preach.
Its almost as bad as passing a church collection plate, but at least I can get gluten-free Jesus on Sunday and meet a few friends for a natter.

I am back at Uni as a mature student currently and when we were on campus, the amount of vegan lifestyle preaching encountered was quite large.
I'm glad you haven't encountered the new style prosytelizing vegan as yet.
I wish I could say the same.

Honestly, I haven't watched the video and I have no want to do so. I try to avoid extremists of all flavour.

Again, I fail to see how you are being preached to when you clicked on the video and watched it willingly.

To me, being preached to would be someone badgering me about my diet choices with no input from me to start this.
Picking an argument with a vegan and then claiming that you are being preached to is bullshlt - which, as far a I've seen in my life, is what usually happens.

I haven't made an argument for or against veganism. All I'm saying is that when the shouting starts, I usually find myself disliking the vegans less that the anti vegans. That's just the way it is for me.
Are there looney, extremist vegans and animal rights people out there? Absolutely! No denying that.
But overall, I find the pissing and moaning and bullshltting of the anti vegan side to be worse.
That is my opinion formed from my experience.
It's unlikely that some anti vegan ranter here will change my mind.

MarkCheese is, perhaps, a good example of how a dairy and meat lobby group might behave to bring people around.
The fact is that, in this part of the world, more and more people are choosing a vegan or vegetarian lifestyle. Clearly, the hostile approach of the agri lobby sector isn't working. It isn't working for me.
I still choose to eat meat but that most certainly isn't down to the rhetoric of the anti vegan people.

topper75

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

The resources to raise cows both water and food is insane, especially when we are exporting most of it and paying through our hole in carbon tax emissions to support it.

I think you may be reading too much Californian political blogs or something.

The 'resources' required are broadly water and grass (with mown stored grass products during winter). Have a think about those in the context of Ireland.

Speaking of California - the words of a former Beverley Hills resident come to mind when I'm invited to give up milk - "from my cold, dead hands.":P