Biden/Harris Presidency Discussion Thread

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756773#Comment_117756773

Irrelevant to the world how Fox News spins this in fairness.

The Middle East doesn't distinguish between parties in America. They just see it as American foreign policy.

And American foreign policy here has been a disaster. They went in to retaliate after 9/11 and stayed around to nation build because it suited them. And now they've left because it suits them again.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756790#Comment_117756790

More bizarre then that Biden continued with Trump's policy.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756806#Comment_117756806

It's not relevant depending on what perspective we're talking about here. No question internationally, this move has been a bloody nose for Bidens presidency, albeit demanding context of a shítty scenario inherited. Internally though, that's where it counts purely from a pragmatic point of view. Especially with the midterms closing in and the spectre of Trumpism still lingering. The troops coming home may be a positive, but we'll see. Obviously from a geopolitical point of view it's a clusterfúck. The Taliban with drones, yikes.

Professor Moriarty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756809#Comment_117756809

Reading the article, it was a fait accompli.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756785#Comment_117756785

I'm sure you will have no problem showing your credentials and explain how over many sessions with Biden you came to the conclusion that he has dementia right?

Or are you another armchair analyst who sees him stumble over a word/phrase and go "Dhur hurrrrr look, he has dementia!"

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756897#Comment_117756897

Who needs credentials when you have nonsense on your side?

Itssoeasy

It was going be a mess regardless of who was president when the US left Afghanistan but even I’m surprised at the speed of the Taliban retaking of the country. It’s twenty years and at some point the Afghans government and army needed to **** or get off the pot and defend themselves, and seeing the amount of money America has spent building up the Afghan armed forces, you’d have to ask why they haven’t held out longer.

Itssoeasy

Andrea Mitchell of NBC news is saying that the Taliban are negotiating a transfer of power. They are in Kabul it’s been reported.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117757048#Comment_117757048

Yep. The Afghan army is surrendering everywhere. There isn’t even going to be a fight.

After 20 years of war the thugs win. It’s genuinely heart breaking. Millions of young girls in Afghanistan just lost their future.

I don’t blame anyone but the Taliban and their benefactors. The US could have spent another 20 years there with the same outcome inevitable.

TomOnBoard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117757108#Comment_117757108

The Afghan 'army' took as much of the loot that the US dropped to them, as they could. It was free $$ in a environment where there was nothing else available to make a buck! When push came to shove, and the money tap was seen to be drying up, they just took their uniforms off and went home. Wise move or cowardice, depending on your point of view. Whether they now re-group and become the new 'insurgency' remains to be seen, but I could see them being a thorn in the Taliban's side once the T takes over, if they choose, and remain 'organised'.

The fact that they did not put up any kind of a fight just shows that the US never made it beyond bomb and destroy 'diplomacy'. It stayed waaay too long, and erred into trying, once again, to play with 'nation-building'- a skill the US hasn't ever come to grips with. They should NEVER have gone in with boots on the ground In 2001, but given that they did, once the Al Quaeda threat and Bin Laden were largely neutralised, they should have left!

Now that a 'negotiated' transfer of power is being arranged, the inevitable is taking place. I see that as a good thing, in that senseless further combat will be avoided, and perhaps some semblance of life and infrastructure will remain intact. Afghanistan is now another failed exercise in U.S. hegemony, which has destroyed a broad swathe of the world from Libya, through Syria into Iraq and now Afghanistan. WHEN will she learn that she has NO business interfering in other nations, even as her own nation is totally fractured.

There may well be aspects of this withdrawal that Biden could have done better. But when Kevin Mc Carthy and other wingnuts try to come over all high & mighty about Biden creating an embarassment for the US by allowing the withdrawal to proceed, it is truly sickening slieveenery of the highest order. His crowd of war-mongering neo-cons started this whole mess, and Trump's cack-handed agreement to leave by May 1st put the tin hat on it. By the time Biden was inaugerated, US troop numbers on the ground were down to 2,500- barely enough to monitor the situation, let alone defend against it. By that time also, the Taliban were back in control of 2/3rds of the country and making steady progress towards a complete take-over.

The ONLY thing Biden could have done to delay current events would have been to create a massive surge of new boots on the ground, and/or to hugely increase aerial bombardment of Taliban positions. Can you just imagine what the caterwauling out of Kevin Q Mc Carthy and his ilk would be like then? You'd have heard the screeching from here!

Melanchthon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117757108#Comment_117757108

As per the article I posted they could have kept a presence of a small number of troops, as per articles the defence establishment wanted this but the Biden administration over ruled this, when trump was in power there was a non partisan effort to stop a US withdrawal unless conditions were met- they weren't met but Biden withdrew completely anyway, UK figures calling it the worst foreign policy failure since Suez, the fact that myself as a normal person two months ago could know the situation was actually really bad with the amount of material the Taliban were capturing from the ANA, Biden on video giving his completely incorrect and flawed predictions.

Boards.ie on it, something something Trump, something something He had to do it,

It's a major failure and I don't think it can be spun positively outside complete echo chambers

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117757483#Comment_117757483

I’m not defending anyone.

It’s a **** show

Melanchthon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117757497#Comment_117757497

It's a major failure of the Biden administration and one that can't be blamed on previous administration as the Bi Partisan conditions existed for withdrawal existed that weren't met.

Saying it's a sh*tshow makes it seem like this wasn't a direct result of his policy failures and likely arrogance.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117757545#Comment_117757545

There's blame to go round though, it's not exclusively on Biden when failures from Bush, Obama, Trump and yes, now Biden, have all brought us to this point. No doubt Biden will bare the brunt as the man holding the bag but the robbery wasn't his (alone). Bar the Marshall Plan and maybe that taken with Japan (itself a decision admittedly taken to staunch communist support there IIRC), America's attempts at nation building have always failed spectacularly. Especially those outside traditional western structures

Itssoeasy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117757545#Comment_117757545

Yes it can be blamed on previous administrations both republican and democrat, because it now seems all of them seemed to be unable to work out how to get out of the country, which is not a new thing going back to Vietnam, where it stretched over several administrations, and ended in a cack handed withdrawal from that country. American seems to think of the initial moments but don’t seem to think long term of how they can get out of a country that they occupy.

You'd have taught at this stage they’d write the ending of the book first and work forward.

NSAman

It’s a damned mess.

I feel sorry for the ordinary Afghans, their lives are back to more tumult.

Then again, when American military leaders say “white rage” is the most dangerous thing in America’s future, tell that to the millions of Afghans who are going to suffer.

while I understand fully, that Afghanistan is a basket case, Biden’s decision leaves people to die. You will never win against an ideology. The trillions spent were wasted. BUT! If you spend that sort of money, you have an obligation to see it through.

Itssoeasy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117757545#Comment_117757545

His policy failure would be continuing the stupid policy of his immediate predecessor who we know stated this withdrawal process and wanted it done in may of this year.

duploelabs

A lot of posters here neglect the historical evidence of Afghanistan's inhospitablity to a colonial nation. The British, when they ruled a third of the globe couldn't hold it, the withdrawal of the soviet occupation was once of the deciding factors in the collapse of the USSR, and quelle surprise the Americans couldn't hold it.

The feudal system that is in place there could never sustain a centralised army and government of their own. They're but one cog in a massively complex system, but people seem to think there is just a binary conflict in Afghanistan, with the Taliban on one side and the rest on the other. It really isn't that simple, nor has it ever been

But suddenly its all Biden's fault

Melanchthon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117757612#Comment_117757612

Here's the thing and this is why I keep mentioning it, the Trump total withdrawal was basically halted by bi-partisan concerns. Democrats thought it was a bad idea when Trump was trying to do it.

Biden pushed passed those concerns even though conditions hadn't been met.

Afghanistan isn't Bidens failure obviously but this mess is. Bahrain air base fell today and are they even going to all their people out

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117757545#Comment_117757545

It’s a major failure of the last 20 years of policy from Bush>Obama>Trump>Biden.

I do object to the arrogance comment. What arrogance? You actually think Biden is an arrogant man?

NSAman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117757633#Comment_117757633

Personally, I don’t think they should ever have gone in. But they did.

that leads to more issues. They have supported a country with money protection and tried to change it, yet, that country (as you stated) is running on non-western standards. The Russians couldn’t sort it, the Brits the same. While American Might, thought they could change it, it was never going to.

The issue for me now, is returning a country to Taliban rule. Thousands who worked for the US will be slaughtered, anyone who had dealings with them. It was never a “winnable” war due to it being ideologically based. The Taliban will return, as evidenced, and now what?

i don’t blame the Biden administration fully, yet he made the decision. For me they should never have been there initially.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117757657#Comment_117757657

Bagram airbase fell. People are leaving freely through Kabul airport.

duploelabs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117757678#Comment_117757678

The decision was made a long time ago, as previously pointed out

TomOnBoard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117757657#Comment_117757657

The opening paragraph is absolutely not true!

The Trump Administration, largely excluding the Afghan Govt from the process, 'negotiated' a flawed deal with the Taliban, and signed it in February 2020. The House Armed Services Committee decided, on a Bi-partisan basis, that the deal was a badly constructed one, and voted to put the brakes on it, through an amendment to the National Defense Authorisation Act. The amendment required that additional conditions would need to be met before troop numbers were reduced be!ow thresholds of 8,000 and 4,000. The Trump Administration ignored all this with wingnuts like Matt Gaetz bleating that such conditions would 'unfairly tie the Administration's hands'. By the time Trump left, BOTH the 8,000 and 4,000 thresholds had been blown away, and only 2,500 remained at end of January! So, if ANYONE ignored your much-touted Bi-partisan 'conditions', it was not Biden, but Trump!

But, that's not the meat of most sensible discussion here. Having a pop at Trump is not the objective of previous posts as I read them! Most posts seem to agree that the US withdrawal from Afghanistan is a **** show, but also seem to agree that it would always have been so, given that the original mission was flawed, the region was totally misunderstood and the medium- to long-term strategy was absent from US thinking. Centuries of history were ignored and no 'end-game' was ever drawn up. Pumping billions of $$ into a totally-misunderstood, tribal society to re-crsate an army that was taught to rely on US air-power for its tactical 'army-ing' was doomed to failure once that air-power was withdrawn! The Afghan army knew that, once the agreement between the US and the Taliban was forged, largely excluding the Afghan Government, it would be on the outs, so why would it fight 'to the death' when the US had signed a deal with its enemy that largely excluded them?

If we're going to have/continue a sensible/respectful discussion on the current crisis, can we at least base it on verifiable information and not on Fox News talking points alone!

Itssoeasy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117757780#Comment_117757780

And I wonder how those taliban prisoners that the trump administration released last year are adding to this mess. I’ve checked and it was 5,000 that were released in total as a way to start peace talks. I’m sure those 5,000 might be back in action and possibly in Kabul.

TomOnBoard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117757826#Comment_117757826

And you can now add a further 5,000 who were released from Bagram prison today, to the volatile mix. Can you.imagine how this 5,000 worst of the worst Taliban and Al Quaeda buckos will exact their revenge on non-Taliban Afghans? It doesn't bear thinking about!

TomOnBoard

Reuters and AP are reporting that Ashraf Ghani has left Afghanistan and fled to Tajikistan..

Itssoeasy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117757915#Comment_117757915

That’s nice of him. He should have been made stay and sort out his troops to fight. There was a report of a tribal militia who were meant to protect a town, **** off to Uzbekistan rather than do what they pledged to do.

Larbre34

Watched an analyst on one of the news channels last night, describing that it doesn't matter who the Western players are, that this was always going to be the challenge for the Afghan people to deal when coalition forces withdrew.

The fact is, the standing Afghan National Army is a force of 300,000 with state of the art Western kit, facing a Taliban of 150,000 with pickup trucks, AKs and a few RPGs. There is far more going on politically, societally and religiously than a straight fight between those two.

There are 38 million Afghans and if that is what they are willing to tolerate strolling over their nation once again and subjugating them, then that will be their lot.

Nobody can change this except Afghans for Afghans. At the same time, I believe the Western coalition has a moral duty to provide those opposing the Taliban with limitless air attack support and ground equipment until the Afghans can enable a democratic choice for their own future

Nody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117757939#Comment_117757939

Your last paragraph is what was the reality for the last decade; look where that ended up in reality once they stopped having someone providing them with all the support and how much that helped. The simple reality is that what is needed is an actual will on the ground by Afghans to do something about the situation; and that's not there now or before. The weapons are there, the training has been provided what's lacking is a will to actually execute and that's not something no amount of money is going to get done.