Biden/Harris Presidency Discussion Thread

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117737155#Comment_117737155

The US invested 20 years and untold billions to train and equip the Afghans. If they're not willing or capable to fight for their future, that's on them at this point.

Black Swan

The Afghan post war occupation was poorly planned from day one by Baby Bush. Obama should have gotten out as promised years ago. Trump said he would pull out by May, had he not lost the 2020 election. Biden is the only one following through with his campaign promise with a 9-11 departure.

The Afghans have had 20 years of allied support to no avail. Should the US stay another 20 years? The Taliban will take over shortly. Having US forces stay would only delay the process.

TomOnBoard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117738438#Comment_117738438

A few additional points to remember:

Foreigners have tried to put 'smacht' on Afghanistan for centuries. They never have succeeded, and the best they have ever done is to leave with their own dead. Afghan 'society' is feudal in its operation, and this has been harnessed by a sect of cruel fundamentalists whose beliefs have been formed from very twisted interpretations of the Holy Book of Islam. Pakistan is similar, but it operates beneath a veneer of 'respectability' and 'Westenrism' formed by British rule on the Indian sub-continent.

When Bush sent in the troops and got buy-in from an international coalition, it was born out of payback/revenge for the 9/11 Al Quaeda attack on the US. The AQ leadership had received succour from Afghani leadership and seemed to have license to roam freely in the mountainous regions that are shared by both Pakistan and Afghanistan. The hunt for Bin Laden was the catalyst for two decades of a failed military campaign, whose only beneficiaries were folks in the military industrial complex in the U.S.A.

As soon as all involved realised that you can't bomb a stone-age society back to the stone-age, shortly after POTUS declared 'Mission Accomplished '🙄, the coalition was held together to provide 'cover' for continued military action by the US. In this regard, it should be remembered that many other countries' troops suffered greater relative hardship & loss eg. British troops in the Helmand province, whose forces required US troop re-inforcement in the post-Bush 'surges' of the late noughties. Every Afghan 'wedding' that was erroneously targeted by Hellfires undermined further an increasingly failing legitimacy that became clearer during Obama's 1st term. Thinly veiled mercenary soldiering by various Afghan tribes, paid for by bundles of shrink-wrapped U.S. dollars was never going to provide a solid foundation for post-military nation-building. The CIA had been embedded in Afghan life for decades, providing funds and guns aplenty while the Soviet Bear played Russian Roulette as part of their own grand scheme to replace Islam with Communism. The traditional Afghan tendency to switch sides on a dime, and play such legendary sports as Bukhazi, where they played 'polo' with the chopped-off heads of goats ( and later those of conquered soldiers, as the much-improved Genghis Khan version of the sport adopted) were well known and ought to have provided fair warning of what foreigners would encounter on the ground. But the Bush/Cheney axis needed Saddam in Iraq, and went to Gulf War II via Bin Laden and Kabul.

During the 2nd decade of the conflict, ignominious defeat loomed ever larger. By the time Trump took charge, 'bring the troops home' became a political game that was played before every Christmas. The musical chairs continued over the years and now the music has finally stopped, and Biden is left standing while all the previous war-mongerers and inheritors slink lower in their chairs and hope to avoid the stink.

All Biden can now do, is to ensure that the cadres of Afghanis who helped US efforts there over the past 20 years or so are provided with safe passage out of a murderous and vengeful resurgent Taliban rule. The shame of brutal misogyny will return, and the world will, once more, turn its back on the women and girls of Afghanistan whose already hard lives will return to slavery. Perhaps a continued effort through sanctions on the resurgent Taliban leadership may provide levers to prevent the worst of the hardships to come, but I doubt it!

Yet another attempt by the U.S.A. to replace a country's centuries-old methods of operation by so-called 'Democracy' comes to nothing but mounds of dead bodies, ruined villages, shattered societies while they give up and go home, bloodied and bowed....

Until the next time!

Manic Moran

It's OK. The EU has stepped in.

(3) AFP News Agency on Twitter: "#BREAKING EU threatens Taliban with 'isolation' if seizes power in Afghanistan https://t.co/PkSKbhC0OX" / Twitter

Rjd2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117745456#Comment_117745456

I understand people's annoyance somewhat with Biden regarding Afghanistan especially as Biden has a very poor record when it comes to overseas wars, but their was no end in sight at all.

Its horrible for Afghans what is happening, but they could not stay their forever.

I think Biden got it right .

https://twitter.com/justinamash/status/1425914512071434243

Atlantic Dawn

The only way out of this mess for Biden is to open up the entire country unmasked and let the uncaccinated decide if they made the right decision.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117745834#Comment_117745834

Biden didn’t really have a choice. Nothing worked.

They tried overwhelming the Taliban with coalition troops. They tried training and arming the Afghan army. The Taliban just hid and waited.

One thing they didn’t do was choke off the supply of money and arms to the Taliban. A fair slice of the Taliban’s budget comes from states that are supposedly allies of the US: Pakistan and Gulf Arab states. The rest comes from selling Opium.

Realistically once the Taliban disassociate from ISIS and don’t sponsor terrorism outside Afghanistan, the US won’t care what they do inside Afghanistan

relax carry on

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117745845#Comment_117745845

Or he could be a responsible adult, realise he's the leader of a country and do what's best for the country in the middle of a global pandemic. The best most certainly is not to just open it up and see what happens.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117746190#Comment_117746190

This another of the “things Biden doesn’t control” straw men.

He doesn’t control opening up the country. The governors do. Look at the state of Florida and Texas.

TomOnBoard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117745937#Comment_117745937

Let's not forget that total US withdrawal from Afghanistan was agreed to by the US in the previous Administration, as part of the Doha Agreement! The Afghan Government and the Taliban were also supposed to engage in bilateral negotiations on agreeing the future governing arrangements. AFAIK, while U.S. withdrawal was being planned, the locally agreed negotiations failed to materialise to any great extent. There are so many other actors in that mess, notably Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan and Russia that the only result that seems likely right now is ignominious U.S. withdrawal, just like Saigon 1975.

God help the people who might have helped the US over the years! ISIS-like slaughter will be child's play compared to Taliban revenge when the dust begins to settle! Another gross failure of U.S. 'might' from the so-called 'leader of the free world'.

Despite the fact that a war-mongering GOP Administration started this ****-show, and the actual withdrawal agreement was made on Trump's watch, the Q-GOP slieveens of 2021 will hammer Biden with 'Escape from Saigon' photos constantly for the 2022 mid-terms and leading into 2024. Gym Jordan, Lindsey Graham et al will be creaming themselves as Kabul wipes Covid, J-6 and Vaccines off the front pages for the next month or so!

Melanchthon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117748303#Comment_117748303

Trump can't be blamed for this, if anything it's incredibly hypocritical considering the House Armed Services Committee in a bipartisan put in place barriers to complete withdrawal unless conditions were met*, ones that the last few months have been shown not to have been met but Biden has gone ahead with the withdrawal.

* There was also the literally fake news story about Russian bounties that was pushed by parts of the establishment and "prestige" media

Melanchthon

Oh an here is another article that highlights how trying to blame trump for most of what's happening is hyper Partisan. There's a line in the article about how they might look back and regret it in two years, turns out it's two months.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/04/14/pentagon-biden-team-overrode-afghanistan-481556

Additional: I was reading blog posts like this back in June, and that's as a randomer not some analysts. This isn't that unexpected

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2021/06/disaster-at-hand-documenting-afghan.html?m=1

Larbre34

Oh no, not isolation, anything but isolation! The inhumanity!!!!!!!

FFS.

Rjd2

You'd have to be in a serious echo chamber to think Obama/Trump or Bush haven't fucked up regarding Afghanistan.

When it comes to Biden, its a mess, but it was always going to be when they left .

I suppose we need to ask after so much money spent how have the "bad guys" taken control so easily?

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117750665#Comment_117750665

1. As I pointed out earlier, the Taliban are extremely well funded and equipped.
2. The Taliban are supported by the majority of Afghans. Why, I don’t know.

The scale of the tragedy here is enormous. Particularly for Afghan women, but somehow the Taliban have convinced the Afghan population that they are the answer. It breaks my heart.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117750871#Comment_117750871

I had been wondering this, whether the Afghan people supported this invasion (insurgency feels too glib). If so, do we have a sense of what it is they're yearning for the Taliban are seen as potential providers? Presumably there's a malaise towards the Kabul government but is it just cos they're seen as a bit Wiemer, a bit Quisling or what?

As you say, your heart bleeds for 50% of the population now facing existential crisis. To wake up in the morning as an Afghan woman (or anyone deemed deviant, IIRC the Taliban even forbid popular music?), knowing the Taliban could arrive in your town, must be a terrifying prospect. I wonder if we'll also see any migrations.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117750900#Comment_117750900

From everything I’ve read about Afghanistan, I can understand why some Afghans want the Taliban back. They period up to 2001 where the Taliban were in control was the most peaceful period in Afghanistan since the 60s.

Most of the Afghan population is rural, tribal and deeply religious. The Taliban seem extreme to us, but from the perspective of most Afghans they’re simply a little more conservative.

Many of the tribal leaders, the real leaders in Afghanistan, don’t care who controls the central government. They want to grow their poppies and sell their opium in peace. Whether that’s a puppet government of the west or a Taliban regime it doesn’t matter. The Taliban levy a 10% tax on poppy farms and opium processing plants. The tribal leaders are absolutely fine with that.

As for migrants, it’s already happening.

TomOnBoard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117750939#Comment_117750939

Some Afghans may well want the Taliban back. But I suspect these will only be a minority, and only religious men. Women won't; girls won't; people who like to fly kites or listen to music won't; gay people won't. Nor will those who like colour, beauty, art, history, modernity. A sad, gray landscape lies ahead for most people, to be interrupted only by the splashes of crimson from ritual beheadings, hand amputations and stonings.

Here's a piece by someone who was actually there, and lived through much of it!

https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-return-of-the-taliban?utm_source=nl&utm_brand=tny&utm_mailing=TNY_Daily_081421&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_medium=email&bxid=5edd6d74bb22c5181b0701cd&cndid=61356153&hasha=49466a2ed05102298bf684a34366abed&hashb=6856ecc1e3471557f4ec4dbd9544c6a2759eee57&hashc=eee511f44663883772a3f74e412dd144fceec595ecb1321d3ec63e2e96a52f3c&esrc=bounceX&mbid=CRMNYR012019&utm_content=A&utm_term=TNY_Daily

hotmail.com

Looks like Biden's prediction that everything will be grand looks a bit silly now.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756565#Comment_117756565

When did he predict that?

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756605#Comment_117756605

He said a month ago that the Taliban won't take back Afghanistan.

duploelabs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756608#Comment_117756608

Where?

pixelburp

It would have been weird for Biden to speculate anything else; in fact it'd have been shockingly poor geopolitics and diplomacy to say in public the Taliban would be a threat. Not least as it would have immediately undermined the entire troop removal in the first instance.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756673#Comment_117756673

I think the point is that he said this only a matter of weeks ago and now the Taliban are about to take over

It's an embarrassing moment for his presidency and for America in general.

Sierra Oscar

Looks like Ghani is gone. What an embarrassment for Biden.

https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1426837632542285826

Sierra Oscar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756605#Comment_117756605

https://twitter.com/shashj/status/1426808439297167362

https://twitter.com/alexsalvinews/status/1426840306654359553

This clearly hasn't gone as envisaged by the US administration. Little point trying to claim otherwise.

hotmail.com

Let's see now if the Americans accept all the Afghan migrants that will flow from this.

I doubt it.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756689#Comment_117756689

As said earlier it's an embarrassment but nor should it fall entirely on his shoulders; he's the 4th president to deal with this war, started by famously warmongering individuals. I asked the question earlier but what else could he have done? I daresay many in the US are happy their men and women are home from an unpopular "war". Fox will probably spin it as a retreat or defeat but otherwise?

Enter name here

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756773#Comment_117756773

Might be the 4th President to deal with it, but is the only president out of the 4 with dementia. I am glad to see the lefties finally get what they voted for, an ineffective and spineless government.

Professor Moriarty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117755485#Comment_117755485

Interesting line from the article:

Donald Trump set this fiasco in motion, by announcing his intention to pull out the remaining American troops in Afghanistan and begin negotiations with the Taliban. In February, 2020, an agreement was signed that promised to withdraw all U.S. military forces in return for, among other things, peace talks with the U.S.-backed Afghan government. The American troops were duly drawn down, but, instead of engaging in real discussions, the Taliban stepped up their attacks.