Your New WHS Index

DuckSlice

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117633113#Comment_117633113

I don't think that is correct. the ESR for -10 would be 2 so its not adding up. Guy off seven should have an ESR of 1.

Neither of them seem to have any ESR added to there handicaps. @prawnsambo should the ESR be added straight away?

Player A - HI adjusted from 9.8 to 8.4

Player B - HI adjusted from 7.7 to 7.1.

Edit - i think i have figured it out. But is it 10 shots below your HI? so if my HI is 9.6 and i shoot level par gross is the ESR kicking in.

Player B should have one applied too as he is 7 better than his HI to par, but doesn't seem to have it applied.

PARlance

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117631092#Comment_117631092

Club competitions will be ruined in a year or two imo. I know a few very good golfers who have stopped playing club comps and are only going to be playing the minimum required. They are playing casually now and submitting cards that way. Can only see more and more honest golfers not donating their €7 at the weekend.

There was even talk of creating a small group to play their own weekly comp among themselves.

I'm sure our place isn't unique but there are guys who were off low single digits last year who have shot up to 10-12 HCers now.

Will clubs do anything? I doubt it, most of them will be playing Bruen or Purcell... And that's not speculation, they are being lined up for it.

The 0.1 annual limit in the old system was brought in, and subsequently reduced/limited, for very good reason. This new system is the perfect storm for anyone or any club who want to manipulate it.

The ridiculously high hc's are another story altogether. Personally I don't think "bad" golf should be rewarded with a prize. I'm not a very good golfer myself but I really think there should be a limit or much more category prizes. When a 5HC breaks par for his first time and doesn't even feature in the prizes, losing out to scores in the high 90's... There's something very wrong with the reward or acknowledge of skill in that sport/competition.

PabloAndRoy

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117633399#Comment_117633399

I am a high handicapper and I agree with pretty much everything you say. It's ridiculous that I can on a good day score 40 points and squeeze a low handicapper out of the prizes even though they played much better golf than I did. I am even a little embarrassed with winning prizes when I play a little bit better than my handicap when in fairness, its nothing special. However, the way my club have set up the "casual golf for handicaps cannot be entered on competition days", the only real opportunity for me to submit cards is via competitions.

Category prizes should be the way to go.

prawnsambo

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117631092#Comment_117631092

Bit strong calling him a bandit in those circumstances though. Unless the suggestion is that he played purposely above his handicap for a year in order to get a higher WHS index. If so, that's dedication. 😉

I'm trying (and failing) to understand how two 38 pointers would not get you cut under CONGU unless there's a CSS (now PCC) adjustment. By my calculation without such an adjustment, each would have got you cut 0.4 at least. So probably a shot anyway.

An ESR would be the reason. Difference between SD and HI on the day of greater than or equal to 7.0 gets an ESR of 1. Above 10 gets an ESR of 2.

prawnsambo

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117633348#Comment_117633348

It's neither. ESR is calculated on the difference between the HI on the day and the SD. So if your member had a SD of (say) 1.2 and his HI on the day was 8.4, the difference is 7.2 and he will get an ESR of 1 applied to his next 20 score differentials.

We had an interesting one recently where a member's SD and HI were exactly 7.0 apart and there was no ESR. A lot of mails to GI handicap adviser couldn't elicit a reason, so took it up with a senior GI handicap guy who didn't know the answer, but suggested that although the HI is always rounded to one decimal place, the SD is not. The difference was actually 6.95 when all the decimal places in the SD were used. Worth bearing in mind when looking at score differentials.

DuckSlice

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117635536#Comment_117635536

Well lets call him a very dedicated golfer so. held the course record of 68 up until last year, when Player B took it off him with a 65. Both very dedicated golfers. :D :D

CSS always used to be 38pts for us except for the rare occasion. 36pts rarely got a cut, it sometimes gave 0.1 back.

On the ESR not kicking in, I was wondering why Player B didn't have one as he shot a 70(-1) gross a few weeks back. Which with no PCC is a 0 SD on my course. but his HI was 6.9 so that makes sense now as it would have been below the 7. He has played in two comps this year, shot 70 and 71 gross. 3 casual rounds entered in between of 85/85/84.

@PARlance you are right, lads are building handicaps in all clubs for interclub comps. something will have to be done with this system as its a dream for the lads that want to win prizes.

prawnsambo

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117635622#Comment_117635622

The problem with a CSS consistently above 36 is that it means that there is either an issue with the normal field playing in competitions and probably with the handicap system itself. Players who are playing with handicaps that are too low (a common complaint with CONGU) will force CSS up on a consistent basis. There's also the possibility that SSS is incorrect, but that's unlikely.

Without seeing the respective handicap records, the high GP scores will most likely not be included in their handicap index calculation. The 70 and 71 gross scores will undoubtedly be included and be an influence on their index for some time.

blue note

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117633399#Comment_117633399

I'm not saying it's the case with you, but I hear a fair few mid handicap golfers get annoyed at the high handicap golfers winning tournaments. So the 16 handicapper gets annoyed at the 26 handicapper winning when they feel them having that number of shots is unfair. Whereas the 16 handicapper competing with the 6 handicapper is absolutely fine.

DuckSlice

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117635859#Comment_117635859

Yea he high scores aren't included in his calculation but plenty of other ones are. IMO anybody that can shoot -6, -1 and E within the last 15 months should not be off 7. the -6 round is gone off his index. and the -1 and E are offset by multiple rounds in the 80's. Ill PM you the the graph for the laugh and you can come to your own conclusions.

prawnsambo

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117636189#Comment_117636189

By the look of that graph and the fact that last year's score is gone off his index calculation suggests very few rounds played in the last year. That would be grounds (imo) for a handicap adjustment. Especially given the 'coincidental' great scores in big prize comps. Handicap committee should be looking at that.

spacecoyote

Could be building alright, but you do have to allow for variance in peoples games as well. The above does sound a bit extreme though.

But if you look at the tournament where Furyk shot the 58, it think he also had a 74 in that same 4 day comp, so a 16 shot swing for a pro between his highest and lowest in the same week

prawnsambo

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117636169#Comment_117636169

We had a bit of that in our club about high handicaps winning comps. So I took a look at this, using a 15 handicap as the median for two groups: Above 15 and 15 and below. The number of wins and places (top three), amounts won and entries were almost entirely directly proportional with a slight bias towards the 15 and below cohort. In other words, neither cohort had an appreciable level of wins or places above what would be expected from the number of entries from that cohort. The 15 and below cohort had more outright wins, but it balanced out with the places.

DuckSlice

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117636300#Comment_117636300

Yea I think its time for them to step in. Pretty obvious what he is doing. His three great scores, the prizes were minimum value of €300.

prawnsambo

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117636373#Comment_117636373

It would seem to me that he has to be playing a lot of golf that isn't recorded anywhere. You just can't rock up to a big competition and put in a low score on demand without a fair amount of practice. That data would be available from a look back on the timesheet.

DuckSlice

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117636524#Comment_117636524

Or he is entering incorrect casual rounds and getting someone to sign them off? no way of policing that though, if someone is willing to do that then doesn't matter what system is in place really.

prawnsambo

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117637241#Comment_117637241

No, the point I'm making is that there's not enough 'official' golf there to be able to deliver that level of good score 'on demand'. You have to be playing at least once a week and most likely more. Like it's easy enough to put the handbrake on even if you have a marker there. A couple of duffed shots, a missed putt or two, three from the tee on occasion etc.

DuckSlice

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117639244#Comment_117639244

Oh right i get you. No he is playing lots just not in competitions, and he's not entering an awful lot of casual rounds either.. He is also a member of another club so he could be playing there everyday for all I know. This guy is a very high level golfer i can assure you and id imagine he is playing at least twice a week plus practice.

I really should forget about it as its not going to change and I'm sure the only way his HI is going is up.

prawnsambo

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117640030#Comment_117640030

This is in the rules of handicapping:

7.1a Conducting a Handicap Review and Adjusting a Handicap Index

(i) Conducting a Handicap Review. The Handicap Committee should conduct a review of a player’s Handicap Index using the procedures set out in Appendix D.

• It is strongly recommended that the Handicap Committee conduct a handicap review annually.
• A handicap review may be conducted at the request of the player or another player at any time.
• Before making any adjustment to a player’s Handicap Index, the Handicap Committee should carefully consider all available evidence, including:
  • Whether the player’s scoring potential has been affected by a temporary or permanent injury or illness which is significant enough to impact the player’s ability to play with or against all other players on a fair and equal basis.
  • Any handicap(s) previously held by the player.
  • Whether the player’s ability is rapidly improving or declining.
  • Whether the player is performing significantly differently in one format of play compared to another, for example between organized competitions and general play; unauthorized and authorized format of play.
  • Where it has been determined that a player’s actions are for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage

DuckSlice

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117640149#Comment_117640149

Thanks, it might be the only route to go down. But as I have told you before about player B there is other complications.

Anyway, playing the next 3 days now on some high slope/CR rated course so hopefully can get a good round in on one of them to get my own handicap down. :D

PARlance

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117636169#Comment_117636169

Well, I used an example of a 5 HC'er shooting a PB of -1 and not finishing in the Top 5 in my post, so I am well aware and have huge sympathy for the low guys. Good golf like that needs to be rewarded, and in our place (with no category prizes), it's not. The negative side effect of this is that quite a few of these guys have given up and are now going for, and being encouraged to go for Bruen and Purcell teams.

With this system, that 5 HC'er can easily be off 12 in a few months.

prawnsambo

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117640463#Comment_117640463

Not sure if you're referring to handicap index or playing handicap or mixing the two, but if it is playing handicap or handicap index, that's not possible.

slingerz

Captains prize 2 weeks ago of the 10 prizes given out 8 players had handicaps of 25 or higher.

Lots of mid to lower handicaps not happy and are boycotting competitions

blue note

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117641719#Comment_117641719

Under the old system it was common for people to boycott comps because they couldn't compete due to their handicaps being too low. I'm not saying it's revenge time, the system should be fair to everyone. But if making tweaks to the system, or who can win prizes you have to be careful to be as fair as you can to everyone.

Basically, in the past as far as I can see the thinking was to just make sure that people didn't win anything with a handicap that was too high for them. And if that meant having people who can't compete it was a price worth paying. To me it was not a price worth paying, I would have preferred to have been beaten occasionally by a 30 handicapper than see a few guys struggle to break 20 points a few times, get a few point 1s back and give up playing in comps as a result.

But once the new system has bedded in, if it is the case that a disproportionate number of comps are being won by new members with high handicaps, then it might be worth looking at restrictions on them winning comps, or even just the big ones until they have 10 cards in or something. I suspect if you had that rule though people would still give out.

RGS

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117641719#Comment_117641719

This to me has nothing to do with the WHS but all to do with the way your committee ran the competition. Surely they divided up members into various classes, (0-10, 11-20, 21+) once the overall winner was identified.

NedBagg

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117633399#Comment_117633399

when you talk about lads being line up to play Bruen and Purcell next year... do we think or know what handicaps will be used .. will it be your lowest this year Which for these guys will mean that it will be their handicaps at Jan 1st 2021 or do we think or know that will it be your handicap on Jan 1st 2022 that is used ... If it is your handicap on Jan 1st 2022 then next years interclub will be a farce.. I can see a lot of lads gaining 5 shots in end of Aug and Sept in casual 9 hole comps !!

slingerz

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117645089#Comment_117645089

There’s always category prizes but the first 10 are for all. 8 of those 10 were 25+ handicaps. The other two were 15 & 18.

Theres also a move to have it as a stableford comp in which case there’s be no point at all in playing

RGS

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117647320#Comment_117647320

IMO having the top 10 overall and then category prizes creates the problem you witnessed.  We just go overall, best gross and then onto the category prizes.  Maybe a re think by your committee for next year may be in order.

Rikand

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117646048#Comment_117646048

I'm thinking about doing the casual 9 hole comps myself. Not because of teams but because I cant play to the handicap I have at the moment and a few 9 holers will get rid of the low rounds that are not a reflection of my current form at all

spacecoyote

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117647406#Comment_117647406

Yeah pretty sure my place is the same, overall and gross, but after that it's a top 3 in each handicap category.

Makes much more sense

blue note

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117647794#Comment_117647794

Does it? If you've 100 entrants you'll probably have about 20 in the 0-9 bracket and far more in the others. So you're giving the lower handicap guys a much better chance of winning a prize.

It used to be the case that the lower your handicap the higher your chance of winning a comp overall too. Do we know that that has changed or are people just guessing based on perception?