Gaslighting

katiek102010

valoren wrote: »

It constantly happened to my younger brother who was groomed by his wife. This is just one example.

My brother and his then girlfriend came to visit me in London back in 2009 for a weekend. I took the Friday off and met them at the airport. They were both 25, first time in London. They were due to leave on Monday afternoon but come Sunday afternoon, with the weekend coming to an end and with me working the next day, his girlfriend said she would love to go to a cocktail bar and then go night clubbing. I was tired and wasn't interested in staying out late and suggested a quiet few drinks close by in London Bridge instead which was very reluctantly accepted. I wasn't aware of any cocktail bars but we'd see what was around. A rational type person might empathise i.e. too late, work in the morning, weekends over etc. My brother was easy going and couldn't care what we did. His girlfriend, a narcissistic type, decided to take umbrage at constantly "being told what to do". She did not like it. She was bored. Let’s do something actually fun. She couldn't see my reluctance for what it was and she'd had Friday and Saturday night to suggest clubbing and cocktails. In her unique way she became passive-aggressively difficult and volatile. She began questioning my "coolness", suggested that I truly didn't know where we could go, that considering I was always suggesting "old man" type pubs that I was boring. I was used to her being a provocative head melt as they'd been together for 6 years by then and so I didn't take the bait so to speak. It was Sunday, the place was like a ghost town and no amount of explaining this was heeded. While in a quiet bar near London Bridge, between molly-coddling her boredom, I ordered a round of drinks. She waited for me to return and then said she needed to use the toilet. Off she went and back she came within seconds. The toilets were downstairs. She was wearing heels and the steps were “too steep”. We went to take a look, it was five steps down and she was being ridiculously dramatic. In hindsight it was her way of getting attention back on her. She said she was desperate to go and so we had to leave a round of drinks behind and we left to find somewhere suitable for her to use. Outside she started an attention seeking hissy fit about how she was bursting to go. Think someone shouting loudly about needing to piss. She was after a couple of glasses of wine and it was classless and embarrassing. My blood is beginning to boil but again I keep quiet. I take my brother aside and ask that he get her to calm down.

As we walk up the street we happen to pass a kebab shop. I spring the idea on her that we will get some food in there and she can use the toilet. Problem solved right? No. She now takes umbrage at me telling her what to do. Specifically I am told "who the f*ck do I think I am ordering her about?". I start getting angry now, it’s clear she is spoiling for an argument and I ask what is wrong with it? She's been bloody shouting on the street, what's the matter? Beggars can't be choosers after all, go in there and take a p*ss ffs. She says it's disgusting and dirty and that I must not think much of her to be "demanding" she use their toilet. I've finally had enough and I snap back "If you had to go that badly you'd have gone in the last place". I've now taken the bait and she just goes ape sh*t on the public street. “Who the f*ck do I think I am speaking to her like that? My dad is going to break your legs when you get back home for speaking to me like that. My brothers will kick the sh*t out of you when they see you next!” My brother went quiet, his body language suggesting he was well used to this carry on. I looked at him bemusedly and said I was heading back to my apartment, that if they wanted to try and find somewhere they could or we could all go back together and call it a night. He said we'd go back together and he corralled her, now crying crocodile tears, towards the Tube station. While walking back, with her a few yards ahead of us, she rang her mother at home and said that I had threatened her and she was frightened for her safety. I said nothing as I was never intending on having anything to do with this lunatic thereafter, so to my mind she could make up whatever she wanted. She’d been volatile and toxic for the past few years and this was the straw that broke the camel’s back. We rode the Tube back in silence, her urgent need to pee mysteriously forgotten about, I said goodnight to my brother and asked him to make sure the door was closed when they left the next day.

I was confident that my brother would finally see sense and dump her. She was a narcissistic head melt who was abusive towards him and she had now been openly abusive towards me for simply calling her out. If he had any sense then, particularly given how young he was, then he'd have ended it and found someone sane. What happened in London was the elephant in the room between us. Anytime I mentioned it he would say that I was the one being difficult, that I had started it, that I was being too aggressive. She had manipulated him into believing that. He was gullible and impressionable and her innocent victim playing was what had drawn him into her toxic orbit to begin with. This was more of the same. She could do no wrong to his mind.

Almost eight months went by with zero contact with her but he remained committed to her and was clearly discounting how she had behaved and bought into her narrative of being the wronged one. I was due to go to the US for six months work and in the days before I left, my brother said his girlfriend wanted to "explain about what happened in London" and would I be open to meet? He said I really needed to hear what she needed to say and for his sake, I said I would meet. I was expecting an apology, one I would accept i.e. sorry I lost the head, won't happen again. We all act stupidly on occasion but we have the capacity to apologise when required. I didn't get an apology. My brother was gas lighted and she intended to try the same tactic on me. She said she had acted out that night because she was nearly raped while on holiday in Turkey two years before. Her reaction in London was thus a consequence of that traumatic experience. This was news to my brother who was there when it happened. The story went that they went on a night out and at one particular bar some local man was, while my brother was conveniently out of sight, trying it on with her. He was trying to chat her up, making sexually suggestive gestures whenever my brother was either in the toilet or at the bar. This guy just wouldn't take the hint, was sexually harassing her and he ended up following her into the toilet where she had to lock herself into a cubicle to escape him while he banged continuously on the door. She wasn't sure whether he wanted to rape or kill her. Eventually he gave up and left. She never told my brother what happened as she said he might get into trouble for confronting him.

I remember her giving a vague description of him to my brother to try and jog his memory but he couldn't recall him, hadn’t noticed anything untoward at all and, given how protective he was towards her, he was put out about his apparent failure to protect her from a sexual predator. The gas lighting part is her making up a situation (which didn't happen) where he failed to protect her (which wasn't true) that under such manipulation she was grooming him to be more accepting of her obviously made up story i.e. I wasn't there to protect you but by believing what you say happened I am making amends for that failure. It was only in the past week that she finally divulged this to him and now that he had a convenient explanation for her conduct in London, I was to be told this yarn as well. So, expressly to avoid accountability, her hissy fit was now defined as a post-traumatic stress reaction because she was asked to use a toilet in a Turkish kebab shop. The prospect of lurking sexual predators had resulted in her verbally attacking me and threatening me with violent retribution from her family. I started to question her with the most prescient one being why this wasn't explained at the time or in the intervening months since? I asked why she stayed in a bar where she was, per her, being continually harassed and didn't simply leave? My brother started taking umbrage at me daring to question her at all. She was being an attention seeking tantrum throwing idiot because she wasn't getting her way but he was invested in her "I coulda been raped!" story now as it explained her toxic behaviour. I was angry that she'd managed to manipulate my brother into believing her latest victim playing story, he knew what and how it happened and knew how inappropriate it was. Ultimately, for his sake I forgot about it and maintained contact thereafter. That's just one example of the mind job she's done on him.

What a nasty vicious witch she is. Is he still with her? I really hope he's not.

KathleenGrant

Immortal Starlight wrote: »

Went through this for years. Went from things like pretending he’d told me he was going into work earlier than usual to pretending entire conversations had never happened. Then I’d get the “oh I don’t know what’s wrong with you” and “you are loosing it” and he’d shake his head and laugh like it was the funniest thing ever. He ran rings around me and even though I absolutely knew there was nothing wrong with me when you have someone else tell you constantly that there is it’s very frustrating.
It’s chilling to realise that someone you knew for such a long time is capable of treating you like that. To others he was and still is the perfect gent. He’d get an Oscar for acting without a doubt. I’m still so angry at myself for letting it go on for so long. It’s only in the last couple of years I’ve actually come to terms with it and I try every day not to think about it and be happy. It’s definitely left a mark on me but what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger as the saying goes.

Almost word for word the same. The man i am talking about was so nice a person i found it difficult to see it myself and blamed myself for quite a while for his behaviour. I know some of our mutual friends still wonder do i exaggerate or if i misunderstood some of it.

ILoveYourVibes

Maxpfizer wrote: »

I have found, in online spaces, that a lot of people make an accusation of "gaslighting" to avoid accepting that they are wrong about something.

I think it can be interesting when you have a 3rd party involved, say an online psychology blog or something like that.

So you can have a situation where a writer is gaslighting their audience by asking something like "is your partner gaslighting you" which can in turn lead to the reader gaslighting their partner by falsely accusing them of gaslighting.

Then I suppose you could have someone else coming along to say "gaslighting isn't a thing" which is actually just ANOTHER disguised form of gaslighting.

Definitely when discussing this online there is a real element of only hearing one side of any given story. I'm always wary of people who seem to have a perfect psychological analysis of their opponent or antagonist or enemy in their own personal situation.

Maybe gaslighting is term that defeats its purpose. To identity abuse.


I mean just say what it is they are doing.

It often works better. break down your problems into little ones instead of rolling it all together into one vague thing.

JUST SAY what it is that is abusive.

COVID

Deleted User wrote: »

I was accused of this by an ex when she completely misremembered something that happened in the past. Either I had to agree to her incorrect version of events or I am an abusive gas-lighting boyfriend.

stoneill wrote: »

Double Gaslighting

If that happens twice, it's called a 'Hob'.
After someone has 'Hobbed' you mercilessly, you'll wish you were back in the good old days of 'Gaslighting'.

katiek102010

chooseusername wrote: »

Not on a wind up,
I've seen a family torn apart by accusations of gaslighting, by someone
who ticked a good few boxes themselves.

Yes is the answer. I have worked in the DV area so I can confirm it does happen. It happens in all forms of abuse.

You will probably be most familiar in cases of physical abuse when the abuser blames the victim for getting hit.

In cases of financial abuse it often happens when 1 partner refuses to contribute to household bills etc and when asked to accuses the requester of financial abuse, when repeatedly told this the victim believes it and becomes afraid to ask again.

It is a deflection method used by abusers to make the victim think they are in the wrong. It is actually a form of gaslighting

statto25

Maxpfizer wrote: »

I have found, in online spaces, that a lot of people make an accusation of "gaslighting" to avoid accepting that they are wrong about something.

I think it can be interesting when you have a 3rd party involved, say an online psychology blog or something like that.

So you can have a situation where a writer is gaslighting their audience by asking something like "is your partner gaslighting you" which can in turn lead to the reader gaslighting their partner by falsely accusing them of gaslighting.

Then I suppose you could have someone else coming along to say "gaslighting isn't a thing" which is actually just ANOTHER disguised form of gaslighting.

Definitely when discussing this online there is a real element of only hearing one side of any given story. I'm always wary of people who seem to have a perfect psychological analysis of their opponent or antagonist or enemy in their own personal situation.

What if your psychological analysis is as a result of trying to mend a huge amount of damage through proper professional means?? I am never in favor of these amateur psychologists and often as I unraveled my life, I found myself doubting my own thoughts and perceptions, self gaslighting in a way. However that self doubt comes from years of being told my mind was the issue, not the outside influences that contributed to the state of mind

ShatterAlan

katiek102010 wrote: »

My apologies, I was convinced it was Hichcock

No, Hitchcock did.


You're going insane :P

mariaalice

Before everyone gets carried away with themselves it's worth reflecting on the fact that the vast majority of people are sound.

valoren

katiek102010 wrote: »

What a nasty vicious witch she is. Is he still with her? I really hope he's not.

They're married. We fell out five years ago, haven't spoken since and needless to say she was the architect who engineered it all. Toxic.

padjocollins

valoren wrote: »

It constantly happened to my younger brother who was groomed by his wife. This is just one example.

My brother and his then girlfriend came to visit me in London back in 2009 for a weekend. I took the Friday off and met them at the airport. They were both 25, first time in London. They were due to leave on Monday afternoon but come Sunday afternoon, with the weekend coming to an end and with me working the next day, his girlfriend said she would love to go to a cocktail bar and then go night clubbing. I was tired and wasn't interested in staying out late and suggested a quiet few drinks close by in London Bridge instead which was very reluctantly accepted. I wasn't aware of any cocktail bars but we'd see what was around. A rational type person might empathise i.e. too late, work in the morning, weekends over etc. My brother was easy going and couldn't care what we did. His girlfriend, a narcissistic type, decided to take umbrage at constantly "being told what to do". She did not like it. She was bored. Let’s do something actually fun. She couldn't see my reluctance for what it was and she'd had Friday and Saturday night to suggest clubbing and cocktails. In her unique way she became passive-aggressively difficult and volatile. She began questioning my "coolness", suggested that I truly didn't know where we could go, that considering I was always suggesting "old man" type pubs that I was boring. I was used to her being a provocative head melt as they'd been together for 6 years by then and so I didn't take the bait so to speak. It was Sunday, the place was like a ghost town and no amount of explaining this was heeded. While in a quiet bar near London Bridge, between molly-coddling her boredom, I ordered a round of drinks. She waited for me to return and then said she needed to use the toilet. Off she went and back she came within seconds. The toilets were downstairs. She was wearing heels and the steps were “too steep”. We went to take a look, it was five steps down and she was being ridiculously dramatic. In hindsight it was her way of getting attention back on her. She said she was desperate to go and so we had to leave a round of drinks behind and we left to find somewhere suitable for her to use. Outside she started an attention seeking hissy fit about how she was bursting to go. Think someone shouting loudly about needing to piss. She was after a couple of glasses of wine and it was classless and embarrassing. My blood is beginning to boil but again I keep quiet. I take my brother aside and ask that he get her to calm down.

As we walk up the street we happen to pass a kebab shop. I spring the idea on her that we will get some food in there and she can use the toilet. Problem solved right? No. She now takes umbrage at me telling her what to do. Specifically I am told "who the f*ck do I think I am ordering her about?". I start getting angry now, it’s clear she is spoiling for an argument and I ask what is wrong with it? She's been bloody shouting on the street, what's the matter? Beggars can't be choosers after all, go in there and take a p*ss ffs. She says it's disgusting and dirty and that I must not think much of her to be "demanding" she use their toilet. I've finally had enough and I snap back "If you had to go that badly you'd have gone in the last place". I've now taken the bait and she just goes ape sh*t on the public street. “Who the f*ck do I think I am speaking to her like that? My dad is going to break your legs when you get back home for speaking to me like that. My brothers will kick the sh*t out of you when they see you next!” My brother went quiet, his body language suggesting he was well used to this carry on. I looked at him bemusedly and said I was heading back to my apartment, that if they wanted to try and find somewhere they could or we could all go back together and call it a night. He said we'd go back together and he corralled her, now crying crocodile tears, towards the Tube station. While walking back, with her a few yards ahead of us, she rang her mother at home and said that I had threatened her and she was frightened for her safety. I said nothing as I was never intending on having anything to do with this lunatic thereafter, so to my mind she could make up whatever she wanted. She’d been volatile and toxic for the past few years and this was the straw that broke the camel’s back. We rode the Tube back in silence, her urgent need to pee mysteriously forgotten about, I said goodnight to my brother and asked him to make sure the door was closed when they left the next day.

I was confident that my brother would finally see sense and dump her. She was a narcissistic head melt who was abusive towards him and she had now been openly abusive towards me for simply calling her out. If he had any sense then, particularly given how young he was, then he'd have ended it and found someone sane. What happened in London was the elephant in the room between us. Anytime I mentioned it he would say that I was the one being difficult, that I had started it, that I was being too aggressive. She had manipulated him into believing that. He was gullible and impressionable and her innocent victim playing was what had drawn him into her toxic orbit to begin with. This was more of the same. She could do no wrong to his mind.

Almost eight months went by with zero contact with her but he remained committed to her and was clearly discounting how she had behaved and bought into her narrative of being the wronged one. I was due to go to the US for six months work and in the days before I left, my brother said his girlfriend wanted to "explain about what happened in London" and would I be open to meet? He said I really needed to hear what she needed to say and for his sake, I said I would meet. I was expecting an apology, one I would accept i.e. sorry I lost the head, won't happen again. We all act stupidly on occasion but we have the capacity to apologise when required. I didn't get an apology. My brother was gas lighted and she intended to try the same tactic on me. She said she had acted out that night because she was nearly raped while on holiday in Turkey two years before. Her reaction in London was thus a consequence of that traumatic experience. This was news to my brother who was there when it happened. The story went that they went on a night out and at one particular bar some local man was, while my brother was conveniently out of sight, trying it on with her. He was trying to chat her up, making sexually suggestive gestures whenever my brother was either in the toilet or at the bar. This guy just wouldn't take the hint, was sexually harassing her and he ended up following her into the toilet where she had to lock herself into a cubicle to escape him while he banged continuously on the door. She wasn't sure whether he wanted to rape or kill her. Eventually he gave up and left. She never told my brother what happened as she said he might get into trouble for confronting him.

I remember her giving a vague description of him to my brother to try and jog his memory but he couldn't recall him, hadn’t noticed anything untoward at all and, given how protective he was towards her, he was put out about his apparent failure to protect her from a sexual predator. The gas lighting part is her making up a situation (which didn't happen) where he failed to protect her (which wasn't true) that under such manipulation she was grooming him to be more accepting of her obviously made up story i.e. I wasn't there to protect you but by believing what you say happened I am making amends for that failure. It was only in the past week that she finally divulged this to him and now that he had a convenient explanation for her conduct in London, I was to be told this yarn as well. So, expressly to avoid accountability, her hissy fit was now defined as a post-traumatic stress reaction because she was asked to use a toilet in a Turkish kebab shop. The prospect of lurking sexual predators had resulted in her verbally attacking me and threatening me with violent retribution from her family. I started to question her with the most prescient one being why this wasn't explained at the time or in the intervening months since? I asked why she stayed in a bar where she was, per her, being continually harassed and didn't simply leave? My brother started taking umbrage at me daring to question her at all. She was being an attention seeking tantrum throwing idiot because she wasn't getting her way but he was invested in her "I coulda been raped!" story now as it explained her toxic behaviour. I was angry that she'd managed to manipulate my brother into believing her latest victim playing story, he knew what and how it happened and knew how inappropriate it was. Ultimately, for his sake I forgot about it and maintained contact thereafter. That's just one example of the mind job she's done on him.

so if you don't mind, that's a number of years ago , can you fill us in on how it went upto 2020 if it lasted that long. i assume it did as it looks like he was never going to dump her

padjocollins

valoren wrote: »

They're married. We fell out five years ago, haven't spoken since and needless to say she was the architect who engineered it all. Toxic.

ahh ok, should have read to the end before asking you for an update. Unfortunately i think a lot of people know someone like your sister in law. Maybe not as outright so obviously toxic but more subtle which in many ways is worse as
it burns more slowly and is not as urgent in any one time. i prefer things to come to a head so you can move on and recognise things for what they are.

valoren

padjocollins wrote: »

so if you don't mind, that's a number of years ago , can you fill us in on how it went upto 2020 if it lasted that long. i assume it did as it looks like he was never going to dump her

She had initially tried to engineer a split between my younger brother and older brother. She groomed him into believing that our older brothers slagging sense of humour was done deliberately to mock and undermine him. It all backfired on her but she weaselled her way out of responsibility. She managed to twist the narrative i.e. he made a drunken quip about how, on a night out, she was dressed like a hooker but she managed to persuade my brother he had actually called her a whore, that he was a nasty piece of work he was just better off cutting contact with considering he obviously had zero time or respect for him per her grooming campaign. He backed up our brother for making what was a stupid mistake and for which he had apologised immediately for. My younger brother bore the brunt of subsequent incessant verbal abuse for supporting and defending our brother. I was routinely drawn into it but always said she should speak to our brother. She never did as it was a neat stick she could use to abuse my brother with and she had no interest in seeking reconciliation. It was the genesis of her abuse and control of him i.e. whenever she had a few drinks taken she'd randomly start on him about "that time I was called a whore", how he never backed her up and how he continues being civil with someone who degraded her in such a way. Like a dope, for reasons only known to him, he just took the abuse. Anyone with any self-esteem or self-respect would have dumped her long by then but she had worn him down through a cycle of abuse. She wouldn't have been missed if he kicked her to the curb.

He was treated like a disobedient child, she wore the trousers, controlled the income and she pretended like their relationship was picture perfect, solid and rocksteady. He was initially a plumber who she saw as her meal ticket but the recession changed the dynamic and he sought factory work and she continued working. She had groomed him from the beginning playing up the role of her being a bullying victim at school and work and she was defined for him as someone needing his protection. They married in 2012, it was all a rush job to do so before our older brother married and presumably stole her limelight. In the lead up he was caught short for the wedding reception fee and I lent him 3k to cover the shortfall. He made me swear to never tell his wife because she'd go ape sh*t with him. I had previously asked him why he wanted to get married and he said he'd been with her so long that he just owed it to her and her family wouldn't be pleased with him giving her the run-around. Wherever she worked she was habitually being bullied, harassed etc. The reality was that she was the bully and was projecting as a rule. A former classmate of hers we met socially verified that she was a terror at school and very adept at playing the victim. It was thus a learned behaviour on her part. She even managed to convince my brother that he was being bullied by an old school friend who was his team lead at work. She flitted from job to job never really settling anywhere or enjoying longevity and started a new job in 2013. She worked in the same building as my now-wife who had given her an induction. She'd been there for years. They became socially friendly and it was how I met my wife. The friendship soured when my sister in law took umbrage at us having the temerity to actually do things on our own. Accusing people of having no time for her was her gateway to cause drama and trouble.

My own immediate family merely tolerated her for the sake of our brother yet she never sought to bond or ingratiate herself in any meaningful capacity. Six weeks before our older brother’s wedding she again had an extended toxic meltdown in a bar in Cork which spilled out onto the street. It was vitriolic, hateful and simply pure narcissistic rage. It was a disgrace to put it mildly. She was someone who needed evaluation but at the same time you knew she would never do so. It started with her accusing me of ignoring her deliberately and culminated with her screaming and screeching on the Grand Parade about a litany of topics until my brother managed to bundle her into a taxi. There was no apology thereafter and I felt that there was a known implication that social contact was done and dusted. I never articulated that with my brother though which was a mistake i.e. listen, your wife is a head melt, nobody needs that, no more nights out, I'm sure you can understand why etc.

Needless to say she was persona non grata thereafter. Fool me once etc. In the aftermath she tried a character assassination of me with my then girlfriend about what a psychotic ass hole I am. It was all done to cover up her meltdown. It didn't have the desired effect. She next started accusing me of having no time for my brother, that I was bullying him, cutting him out socially and doing so deliberately. All lies and all delivered via proxy with my girlfriend at work. I ignored it as I'd always been close to my brother and presumed he knew I would do no such thing. Or so I thought. That didn't elicit a reaction either. She then started to bully and harrass my girlfriend positing her as the cause of a major rift and she groomed my brother to believe she was acting on his behalf to protect him. My brother was friends with my girlfriend as well and he just believed whatever he was told to believe. It was hell for my girlfriend and I knew if I reacted or was baited to respond then a falling out was inevitable. She never contacted me, it was all cowardly conducted at work trying to draw me into an argument which she could exploit and it all happened over a period of months. At any unavoidable family events she was roundly ignored until she subsequently had an unhinged go at my girlfriend at work over some perceived slight (i.e. my other sister in law tagged my name by mistake on Facebook at an event and this was used as "proof" of me snubbing my brother). My girlfriend finally got HR involved and a warning was issued. I met my brother to discuss and he was fully subscribed to her victim narrative. He refused to see the problem of her going to attack my girlfriend about me i.e. she should be attacking me, right? He said I had no time for him and nothing would convince him otherwise. Nothing I could do about that.

Meanwhile she told our parents that my wife was a serial bully at the job and had been suspended previously. All a smear to give her cover in case she got sacked for bullying i.e. it wasn't me, I was the victim, the serial bully struck again. My dad questioned it and told me subsequently. My girlfriend needed to get documentation to refute the smear. She'd done a character assassination of my girlfriend in advance of me meeting my brother and he played it off as him trying to protect me, imploring me to break it off with her, who was now defined as a psycho and the source of all the trouble. He said he made a mistake in becoming friendly with and trusting my girlfriend. He said I should heed the warning. The idea that I only spoke to his wife at all was explicitly for the sake of our continued relationship was lost on him. My sister in law then started playing the victim at work while simultaneously bullying and cyber bullying my girlfriend. The point came where, disregarding the inevitable falling out, I got involved and called her to account. She was roasted about her behaviour which was openly outlined to the both of them and the only consensus which could be reached was that she was a dead to rights bully. Contact was cut after her parents subsequently warned me of consequences if further contact with their daughter was made by me. Bear in mind that this was a 30 year old married woman running to her parents to cover up her abuse. It was vindicating to witness it.

My brother then formally cut contact after he was asked, but refused, to meet me in private to salvage some semblance of normality between the two of us and give him a talking to about what his wife was engineering. He was invited to hear my girlfriends experience with his wife but, deep down, he knew the truth and wasn't interested in confronting reality. I wanted to remain civil with him while snubbing his wife and understandably he wasn't having that. He refused mediation, backed up her lies and championed her "can do no wrong/I was only trying to help two brothers/got bullied (again)" narrative. Her bullying, her modus operandi, was projected onto my girlfriend. It was all a long time coming, I was engaged by then, but a falling out was welcome to simply not suffer his wife's toxic and exhausting behaviour anymore. This was the kind of person who, during peace times, would conjure up trouble if you didn't say hello to her first. If he couldn't see the wood for the tree's then that was his problem alone. The actual narrative was that his wife was always the source of trouble, actively and continually fostered discord and drama with poisonous lies and accusations within our family, had been caught bullying my wife to be, got called on it and she twisted everything to avoid exposure. Considering she had my brother's full support in doing all this then no civil relationship was possible. She also benefited from the idea that my younger brother, in falling out with us, was no longer exposed to an actual healthy relationship and, in my wife, a genuine, loving, normal, rational and personality ordered spouse.

Now to stay on point about the topic of the thread, the gas lighting attempts thereafter were incredible. She left the job as per usual after her reputation became toxic therein. My wife remained. This didn't stopped her and her mother from smearing my wife with slander at the actual building in which they worked thereafter. Waiting around the foyer at lunch time grabbing anyone willing to listen to warn them about what a toxic and dangerous viper my girlfriend is. In the aftermath, my brother's own situation was projected onto me. I was posited as the gullible but well-meaning fool who had been drawn into an abusive and coercively controlling relationship by a "too nice to be kind" serial bully who had made life hell for my brother's wife at work because she wanted to prevent me from making a mistake. I was now attacking my brother and his wife on behalf of my girlfriend who was bullying me into compliance. His wife was only ever looking to heal a rift which my wife had instigated. His wife was bullied for trying to protect me and my reputation which my girlfriend was sullying with co-workers. Another reason why his wife was bullied was because my wife had privately confided with my sister in law and said she wasn't interested in me and wanted her to do the "dirty work" and let me know this. He said his wife refused to do her bidding and this compounded the bullying. Given that his wife had also claimed our older brother's then girlfriend had also privately told her in 2004 that she wasn't interested in our brother and was going to dump him it was a remarkable coincidence it happened again. She was recycling her lies now in desperation. In essence, the wives of both his older brothers had both privately and seperately confided their disdain for his brothers in private. All lies purported by a malicious, dangerous and nasty individual.

Her public tantrum on the Grand Parade which was actually a prolonged outburst about our family's lack of regard for her was now retrofitted to become her bravely acting out directly on my behalf because I was dating a bully unbeknownst to me. Our immediate family implored us brothers to make up but they didn't realise the true extent of the bullying that went on. My wife was depressed and physically exhausted during the height of it. I agreed to meet my brother who relayed the above false narrative to me whereas I showed him the documentation my wife procured which showed him that his wife was a liar. Reputation is everything and he was shown it to protect hers. It was also a warning for him that if anything happened to him down the line then he could never say he wasn't warned about how dangerous his wife is. His parting remark to me was that his wife was no liar and he said that considering it was a Sunday today if she told him it was Monday then he believed it was Monday. That he didn't understand that she would be lying to him by saying such a thing was an indication of how scrambled his mind was. He was a shell of himself, exhausted and drained mentally from the rollercoaster his relationship was with her. He was lost yet there was just no talking to him. Our father, who had been there to mediate, said afterwards that the worst thing his son could do was to have a child with her as he, who he said was obviously brainwashed and in denial, would be irrevocably invested and unwilling to leave no matter how extensive the abuse would be.

Considering we fell out, I actively went after my brother for repayment of his loan. He tried to ignore me outright and ultimately he was outed for what had happened. He'd been loaned 3k and three years later, despite all the promises to repay, he still hadn't. It was supposed to be a short term bridging loan which he would repay after his honeymoon but that became an elephant in the room between us when we were still civil. My approach to get repaid was used as another opportunity to gas light. He said (all via text) that he never asked me for the money. He said I had pretty much forced it on him as a means of lording it over him and controlling him. He said he had tried repeatedly to repay me but I refused. He said I was a liar. He said I was trying to cause trouble in his marriage considering his wife knew nothing of it and I had now caused a rift between him and our parents who were appalled. I was declared a bully who had gleefully harassed his wife, who had deliberately cut him out to bully him, who swannied off with my wife, a bully who was the organ grinder to me, the monkey. See? Everyone else is a bully but his own wife is innocence personified.

Eventually the name and shame worked and a repayment check was used to bait me into a confrontation. I was ostensibly at his house to meet him but his wife and her parents also showed up. I was verbally abused and an obvious attempt to rile me into a physical (and smart phone recorded) reaction was made. My wife was labelled a thing, I was called evil, despicable and disgusting particularly considering that his wife was now pregnant and was stressed out at all my bullying and harrassment (..but showed up anyway!). I simply wanted to get the money and leave but gave as good as I got. The documentation my wife procured was now something she conjured up herself to fool me with. The gas light part was my brother saying I was a psycho who was always looking for a fight. That he was embarrassed to call me his brother. He said the night after their wedding told them all they needed to know about me. He said I was drunkenly trying to start a fight in a bar and he had to hold me back. I was confused and it took a while to recall what actually happened. In reality, a randomer making their way through the crowd had bumped into his father in law who reacted by asking the guy to watch it. The randomer squared up to him, my brother saw it, went apoplectic and was looking to confront the randomer. I held him back and the randomers friend, who saw what happened, pulled his buddy away. Hand bags at dawn stuff yet then three years later I was posited as the hot headed psycho who was trying to start a fight with a passer by. That was where my brother was at mentally, projecting what he did onto me and using it to smear me. No prizes for guessing who he learned that from. He threw the check at my feet and disowned me. He said I would never know their child and I could now f*ck off. I got in my car and drove away. That was five years ago. They have a daughter and a son. I've met neither. We have two daughters. He'll meet them one day. When he decides to pull his head from his behind about the coercive control he's dealing with and how his wife is the common denominator. He'll see how truly dangerous she is if he ever does but he'll get total support if she tries to destroy his reputation. I know he wouldn't be able to cope. The only way to deal with toxic people is to not deal with them. It never ceases to amaze (and anger) me how much damage one motivated person can cause but also how weak willed enablers allow them to continually get away with causing that damage.

statto25

valoren wrote: »

She had initially tried to engineer a split between my younger brother and older brother......

Jesus Christ man that's a horrible story, I feel for you but well done on distancing yourself from that bile. I can never understand how blood relations can turn on their own like that. My experiences are minor league compared to your ordeal but I bailed out early for my own sanity

katiek102010

valoren wrote: »

She had initially tried to engineer a split between my younger brother and older brother. It backfired on her but she weaselled her way out of responsibility.

That is truly horrific, your poor wife, your poor family. These things never end well. One day your brother will eventually see what's happening, it may be the kids copy her behavior and exhibit it in school or maybe he will just wake up.

When that day comes she will turn the kids against him. If he doesn't have custody, she will take them to his when she knows he is at work then say see daddy doesn't live you. Ask him for money towards presents at Christmas and birthdays and claim he didn't buy them anything.

Be prepared in case that happens. If she rears her head again while they are together please get the cops involved. Give them any evidence you have eg work hearing evidence etc.

She sounds like an atypical case of NPD, which is actually heriditary. I have no doubt at this stage is is more than likely suffering from untreated MH issues.

COVID

valoren wrote: »

.

Very sad story.

Quantum Erasure

Saw this on reddit, reminds me of a few arguments / discussions I've had on here...

Nykay

I once had a member of staff make me mop up some spillage on the floor before I went on my break. She wasn't a supervisor, but she had been there longer than me. It seemed like a fair request, but I knew she was picking on me some how. When I was tidying up the water, she made sure to be leaning over the bench right next to me while eating cake while I was down on my knees tidying up the mess. I don't know if that's quite gaslighting, but it's definitely passive aggressive bully behaviour.

katiek102010

Nykay wrote: »

I once had a member of staff make me mop up some spillage on the floor before I went on my break. She wasn't a supervisor, but she had been there longer than me. It seemed like a fair request, but I knew she was picking on me some how. When I was tidying up the water, she made sure to be leaning over the bench right next to me while eating cake while I was down on my knees tidying up the mess. I don't know if that's quite gaslighting, but it's definitely passive aggressive bully behaviour.

It wouldn't be classed as gaslighting. Gaslighting is saying something or behaving in a manner that causes the victim to question or doubt their own sanity.

The behaviour is repeated and consist and the victim looses their self esteem and often ends up with debilitating MH issues.

Victims ending up feeling worthless and become completely dependent on their abuser.

Gaslighting is most commonly experienced in domestic and employment environments.

It's less common in social situations as people find it a lot easier to end social relationships

Deshawn

TuringBot47 wrote: »

In fairness, I had to look up what "gaslighting" meant... I thought it was when people ignite their own farts.

It's can be just another American imported word used by some people who want to portray that they are a "victim" of a difference of opinion or social exchange.

DeanAustin

Deshawn wrote: »

It's can be just another American imported word used by some people who want to portray that they are a "victim" of a difference of opinion or social exchange.

Undoubtedly, this is true. I've seen it get thrown around liberally in the same way the term mental health has been thrown around (particularly over the last week when the government imposed the lockdown).

That said, I can't tell you the relief I felt when I discovered what it is. I was getting severely disoriented mentally by her behaviour. She was so convincing in everything she said that even I was half-believing it so other people were taking it hook, line and sinker. She was also the person I knew and loved 90% of the time which just made it all the more bizarre and made me question myself even more.

She was lying about stuff we'd spoken about before and both knew was true. I was also going through a parent's death when it all kicked off so I was all over the place. I'd never seen the like of it so I was really questioning myself on stuff I knew and on stuff I could prove happened. I know that sounds ridiculous but that's how this works. To discover that it was a known behaviour and to discover what gaslighting is was a massive, massive relief to me.

Deshawn

DeanAustin wrote: »

Undoubtedly, this is true. I've seen it get thrown around liberally in the same way the term mental health has been thrown around (particularly over the last week when the government imposed the lockdown).

That said, I can't tell you the relief I felt when I discovered what it is. I was getting severely disoriented mentally by her behaviour. She was so convincing in everything she said that even I was half-believing it so other people were taking it hook, line and sinker. She was also the person I knew and loved 90% of the time which just made it all the more bizarre and made me question myself even more.

She was lying about stuff we'd spoken about before and both knew was true. I was also going through a parent's death when it all kicked off so I was all over the place. I'd never seen the like of it so I was really questioning myself on stuff I knew and on stuff I could prove happened. I know that sounds ridiculous but that's how this works. To discover that it was a known behaviour and to discover what gaslighting is was a massive, massive relief to me.

Here where I'm from we would say someone is a vindictive ****. But at least you see the pattern and are aware of how it is likely to continue to play out. The name doesn't matter

Phoenix32

For me, I'm so grateful I have a sibling who remembers some of the events my mother denies. Being told as a child/adolescent that your perception is skewed has such a detrimental effect. I still question my memories and wonder if I'm just remembering things incorrectly. It made me feel so crazy.

KathleenGrant

KathleenGrant wrote: »

Had it done to me by the last man i lived with. Nothing really dramatic but small lies. Food I was thinking of using for dinner wasn't there when i was sure it was. Birthday cards i bought couldn't be found and he would convince me i never had them. He would come home late now and again and swear he had forewarned me but i wouldn't remember.

It was horrendous and left me thinking i had early dementia (my mother suffered from dementia and he knew it was a real fear of mine). I was going through some stressful family stuff and believed the stress had me imagining things if not dementia.

He moved out and left 2 months rent unpaid. He swore to the landlord that he had given this money to me and i had "forgotten". He detailed other instances of my forgetfulness to him and I still am not sure what the landlord believes.

Six months ago when cleaning i found a box on the top of the wardrobe with birthday cards.

He was a nasty piece of work and he did me a favour when he left. I didn't think that at the time but i would have been a broken person now if he stayed.

That sounds horrible and it's funny how we think of things. I was gonna say those weren't little lies but I guess they were. But the intent behind them is what adds a lot of gravity to them. Sounds like a right piece of ****.

cj maxx

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

Has anyone ever had this done to them?

Just horrible behaviour thrown at you and when you point out how hurtful and nasty their behaviour is they make up excuses that don't make sense and no genuine apology. Or an apology but no change in the behaviour. Then if you react badly at all, they blame your reaction and turn it around on you.

What is wrong with these people?

The point is the people being gaslighted don’t realise it to begin with until it’s too far gone. The person who does it picks their victims because they’re slightly gullible

Quantum Erasure

It would tie in with general domestic abuse as well, it just kind of creeps up on you,
like the apocryphal frog in the pot of water,

if he's dropped into a pot of boiling water, he'll hop out before he touches the bottom, but put him in luke warm water, and gradually increase the heat... he'll sit there happily and boil to death. You just find it normal, you can't see a way out...

Jequ0n

cj maxx wrote: »

The point is the people being gaslighted don’t realise it to begin with until it’s too far gone. The person who does it picks their victims because they’re slightly gullible

I’m sure gullibility plays a part in some instances but it’s not what gaslighting is built on. It is trust.

Why would you mistrust your partner/parent, they love you and want the best for you. Just sometimes you seem to be a bit over sensitive and mix things up.

Then it makes you feel bad because you can see how much hurt this is causing your loved one, so you suck it up. You don’t want them to hurt because you know they went the same for you.

KathleenGrant

cj maxx wrote: »

The point is the people being gaslighted don’t realise it to begin with until it’s too far gone. The person who does it picks their victims because they’re slightly gullible

I don't think I was gullible. I was trusting and vulnerable. Totally different.

riclad

Gaslighting is being dishonest eg a man who pretends to love his wife while having
affairs , a boss who promotes only his friends
and ignores people who are competent but who
do not flatter him when it comes to recommending staff for promotion so he might say lies like staff are rated on various factors

statto25

riclad wrote: »

Gaslighting is being dishonest eg a man who pretends to love his wife while having
affairs , a boss who promotes only his friends
and ignores people who are competent but who
do not flatter him when it comes to recommending staff for promotion so he might say lies like staff are rated on various factors

Thats not gaslighting, thats just being deceptive and dishonest. None of those actions have the aim of making someone doubt their mental capacity unless we are being specific as to how they are going about these actions

Sardonicat

riclad wrote: »

Gaslighting is being dishonest eg a man who pretends to love his wife while having
affairs , a boss who promotes only his friends
and ignores people who are competent but who
do not flatter him when it comes to recommending staff for promotion so he might say lies like staff are rated on various factors

That is not gaslighting. Gaslighting involves deliberately trying to make the victim question their reality, usually to cover up the perpetrators cr@p behaviour and sometimes the questioning of the sanity is the goal itself. It wears a person down and they stop trusting their own perceptions and gut feelings. It weakens boundaries so abusive behaviour begins to become more acceptable over time. It's very sinister stuff and takes a deeply cunning and manipulative individual to do.