Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

I think a lot of people just struggle to accept the harsh realities of life. Your life is not precious. You are 1 of 5M people in this country. The same applies to your parents, siblings etc etc. 1 life is not more important than the overall well being of several people.

We always need to approach things in a way that achieves the best possible outcomes for the majority.

Like I said earlier, if 10 people suffered from a rare illness, should we throw all our funds towards their treatment? Knowing that there will be no funding for anything else. Of course not. If the 10 people die, they die.

hmmm

weldoninhio wrote: »

That’s an infection fatality rate of roughly 0.14%. Right in line with seasonal flu and the predictions of many experts from all around the world."

Not true at all.

IFR will depend on the age profile of the population. The Swiss study below had an IFR of 0.14% only for the 50-64 age group, dropping to .001% for 20-49 year olds and going to 5.6% for the over-65s, with an overall population IFR of 0.64%

https://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/laninf/PIIS1473-3099(20)30584-3.pdf

Flu kills 200-500 people a year. We've already had 1800 Covid deaths and only a small part of the population infected.

Libski

SusieBlue wrote: »

One person is not more important than everyone. Your income and finances are obviously not effected by the restrictions.
I have a vulnerable person in my life who has assessed the risk for themselves and decided they would rather enjoy life spent around loved ones than spend the last few years of their lives hiding alone at home in terror.

But that's what you're asking people to do.

average_runner

Deleted User wrote: »

I think a lot of people just struggle to accept the harsh realities of life. Your life is not precious. You are 1 of 5M people in this country. The same applies to your parents, siblings etc etc. 1 life is not more important than the overall well being of several people.

We always need to approach things in a way that achieves the best possible outcomes for the majority.

Like I said earlier, if 10 people suffered from a rare illness, should we throw all our funds towards their treatment? Knowing that there will be no funding for anything else. Of course not. If the 10 people die, they die.

Why invest in anything with that attitude? We are spending millions on cancer, heart disease etc. Around 9,000 a year die because of Cancer in Ireland? Surely better off spending that money on getting rid of junk food and process food and supply better health alternatives in shops

mohawk

Graces7 wrote: »

People need not die because we took no precautions. So much else wrong in your post AS THINGS ARE. Pie in the sky time !

We are dealing with here and now not as you think things should have been and should be. With the reality we actually have, And avoid folk dying needlessly . Each life is precious; we are not just statistics.

WHO did not also discount lockdowns altogether

And if folk would just stop parties and follow the basic guidelines? The only reason for the current restrictions is the behaviour of folk who ignore simple safeguards.

Most people aren’t talking about not taking any precautions at all. There has to be precautions e.g. nearly everyone is wearing a mask whilst shopping. However, even with precautions we can’t save everyone.

It is naive to think if everyone followed the regulations we will have no restrictions. Simple fact is thousands are going out to work every single day whether the workplace is schools, factories, hospitals, supermarkets etc. Some of those people are likely to be asymptotic carriers of the virus and will unbeknownst to them spread it. Even if everyone strictly adhered to the guidelines there will be cases. We need enough restrictions that allows us to mange the hospitalisations and ICU patients.

SusieBlue

Libski wrote: »

But that's what you're asking people to do.

Yes, if they’re that concerned about contracting the virus the sensible thing for them to do would be to take personal responsibility for their health and cocoon and avoid other people as much as is humanly possible.

If they are that terrified of the virus then it shouldn’t be a problem for them.

_Kaiser_

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Michael McGrath, has said this will be a "hope and confidence" Budget

https://www.independent.ie/business/budget/budget-2021-live-as-it-unfolds-39614265.html

Not sure how to feel. Upset or horrified.

Oh well, here is for "Hope"

We're back in the convention centre I see and everyone is masked up despite big gaps between them.

It's nonsense. Wasn't necessary the last time they were here, the deaths are still as low as they were then, yet we have images like this feeding the fear in people.

Leo just took his off it seems! Bold boy!

Captain_Crash

hmmm wrote: »

Flu kills 200-500 people a year. We've already had 1800 Covid deaths and only a small part of the population infected.

Herein lies the issue, that 1800 didn't die of Covid, they died with it. It also has to be acknowledged that 1650 of those covid deaths were at the very beginning when the virus swept into a community with no immunity and killed the most vulnerable, the vast majority of whom were at deaths door and already survived the 2019 flu season, which had a record low of deaths. As sad as it is... that's nature and that rate of death wont be seen again with this virus.



Infact if I had said to you in April we'll see less than 2000 deaths in 2020 attributed to this you (and many others) would have laughed me out of the forum... but forget 2000, we may not even see 1900.

questionmark?

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Based on their needs actually.

I dont understand why do all students who struggle for cash get one off 250 euros? As there are students who "struggle for cash" while living with parents and there are students who struggle for cash and could be kicked out of their accommodation within weeks, and might not have parents to go to.

This is akin to PUP of 350 euros for part time staff, little fiasco.

Ok now we are getting somewhere. You want it means tested which is fair enough. The details of what you want end there though. How much and where does the money come from!

_Kaiser_

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

We're back in the convention centre I see and everyone is masked up despite big gaps between them.

It's nonsense. Wasn't necessary the last time they were here, the deaths are still as low as they were then, yet we have images like this feeding the fear in people.

Leo just took his off it seems! Bold boy!

The resistance to something so simple, easy and painless as wearing a mask (proven to help with reducing virus spread) is absolutely astounding to be quite honest.

Ginger n Lemon

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

We're back in the convention centre I see and everyone is masked up despite big gaps between them.

It's nonsense. Wasn't necessary the last time they were here, the deaths are still as low as they were then, yet we have images like this feeding the fear in people.

Leo just took his off it seems! Bold boy!

Nox probably raised a brow.

Leo is granny killer! :rolleyes:

weldoninhio

hmmm wrote: »

Not true at all.

IFR will depend on the age profile of the population. The Swiss study below had an IFR of 0.14% only for the 50-64 age group, dropping to .001% for 20-49 year olds and going to 5.6% for the over-65s, with an overall population IFR of 0.64%

https://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/laninf/PIIS1473-3099(20)30584-3.pdf

Flu kills 200-500 people a year. We've already had 1800 Covid deaths and only a small part of the population infected.

I quoted the WHO. Take it up with them.

_Kaiser_

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Nox probably raised a brow.

Leo is granny killer! :rolleyes:

I don't even reply to him. Said that before. No point.

My actual point was it's just feeding into this notion that we all should be scared and treating others like lepers - when the truth is that for the vast majority (as we know from the numbers) there's little to no risk.

Penfailed

Captain_Crash wrote: »

That reminds me, I forgot to ask if anyone else has heard of this.... A good friend of mine tested negative a couple of weeks ago, he was then called back in for a second test and tested negative a second time. Now he's been called back for a third test and isnt sure if he should bother going considering he's tested negative twice in a row.

Why is he being called back?

Ginger n Lemon

Real budget question today is - what are the supports? What are the supports for Hotels, pubs, restaurants?

Are those supports just for next 4 - 6 weeks or actual 6 months (given the yoyo nature of lockdown - cases go down, re open - cases rise, lockdown etc)

Andrewf20

CruelSummer wrote: »

I found Leo Varadkar's piece in the Independent somewhat reassuring today. Well balanced while setting out the stall of where the Government intend to go...I also found Míchael Martin's interview reassuring. No rush to a level 5 just yet, the Government doing their best to hold their ground for now. This is a welcome change in dynamic, instead of just leaks to media, NPHET tweets and the likes. We have communication to the public from Míchael and Leo. Good to see Paul Reid out also, I think ICU capacity could come under pressure in the coming weeks and I hope they have a plan with the Governmnet.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/education-officials-pushing-for-schools-to-stay-open-39608940.html

This paragraph was interesting in Leo's piece:
"Before we consider pushing the button on a circuit break, there are a few things we need to think through and questions we need to be able to answer.

For example, what's the objective? Is it to get to 200 cases a day, 100 cases a day or zero? And for how long?

What will we do to provide income support for those out of work yet again, and how can we ensure that businesses that have to close will survive to open another day?

Shutting shops and placing hundreds of thousands of people out of work was one of the hardest decisions I had to make as Taoiseach. It breaks my heart to think of it happening a second time.

Do we have a plan to reopen Ireland again if we get it right?"

Circuit break in Israel could last 4 months according to BBC website.

Ginger n Lemon

Total loss of 320,000 jobs in 2020 with a recovery of 155,000 jobs next year - Minister Donohoe

Deficit of €20.5bn forecast for 2021

Fully utilise €1.5bn rainy day fund - Minister Donohoe

The ugly parts above.


Good bits below

VAT for hospitality sector falls temporarily from 13.5pc to 9pc, this change in VAT is in place till December 2021

Ceiling of second USC band increases from €20,484 to €20,687

Worker working from home may claim tax deduction on broadband (Nox this 1 has you in mind)

All in all, not very re assuring.

Few more weeks of level 3 and our deficit forecast will be over 25bn for 2021.
2008 will seem like a walk in the park in comparison.

https://www.independent.ie/business/budget/budget-2021-live-minister-donohoe-unveils-covid-and-brexit-measures-39614265.html

Lockdown, even light forms of it, is not sustainable

charlie14

hmmm wrote: »

Not true at all.

IFR will depend on the age profile of the population. The Swiss study below had an IFR of 0.14% only for the 50-64 age group, dropping to .001% for 20-49 year olds and going to 5.6% for the over-65s, with an overall population IFR of 0.64%

https://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/laninf/PIIS1473-3099(20)30584-3.pdf

Flu kills 200-500 people a year. We've already had 1800 Covid deaths and only a small part of the population infected.

There is much being made of age groups and underlying conditions in relation to this virus.
An article in Forbes late July was interesting if tragic regarding that.


From Mexico`s National Epidemiology Oversight System database (SINAVE)
In Mexico City 63% of those who passed were 61 or over, 39% were in the 41-60 age group, while 29% were in the 35-55 age group.


Close to half of that 35-55 group (1171 from a total of 2450) none were listed as having any underlying conditions in relation to obesity, asthma or diabetes.

Andrewf20

Libski wrote: »

I want you to explain how you justify putting lives at risk.

The unfortunate reality is that every year we put lives at risk in the winter by spreading the flu. Just think of the milling around of people in shopping centres in the build up to Christmas and the family gatherings. This probably plays a big part in the spike in flu that occurs in January that ends up killing many people. 3 - 4000 people die in Ireland each year from respiratory illness.

320 - 650, 000 die from influenza each year worldwide.

Should we have lockdowns each year? Where do we draw the line?

growleaves

Michigan Supreme Court rules against governor again, ending Covid-19 executive orders

The Michigan Supreme Court on Monday denied Gov. Gretchen Whitmer's request to delay the effect of an opinion that ruled her executive orders on the coronavirus pandemic are unconstitutional.

4068ac1elhodqr

charlie14 wrote: »

Close to half of that 35-55 group (1171 from a total of 2450) none were listed as having any underlying conditions in relation to obesity, asthma or diabetes.

Very hard to believe.

Mexico is joint 1st (1st 2013) (2nd 2017) for OECD obesity, along with the US.

Ginger n Lemon

growleaves wrote: »

Michigan Supreme Court rules against governor again, ending Covid-19 executive orders

That governor is hysterical.

Overruled in the past by courts. Absolutely crazy individual, likely in last term in power


Court Rejects Whitmer’s Effort To Impose Severe Lockdown Penalties On Businesses
‘There is simply no room ... for adding additional penalties’
By Tom Gantert | June 8, 2020

https://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/court-rejects-whitmers-effort-to-impose-severe-lockdown-penalties-on-businesses

Ginger n Lemon

The only business support for businesses forced to close from govt orders is below

"
The scheme will provide businesses with a cash payment in the form of an advanced tax credit based on their loss of income due to Government-imposed restrictions.

The payment will be made available to businesses whose turnover is down 80pc during the period they are closed because of coronavirus measures.

The scheme will be available to any business with an annual turnover of less than €2m."

https://www.independent.ie/business/budget/up-to-5000-per-week-for-businesses-forced-to-close-due-to-covid-39618491.html

Sounds very restrictive- if your turnover suffered by 70% - do you not qualify? If your annual turnover is 2.1m - do you not qualify?

All in all expected much better.... :mad:

Captain_Crash

Penfailed wrote: »

Why is he being called back?

Don’t know. After the first callback his opinion was maybe they didn’t test right or was tested too soo etc.... he asked when being tested but the person said words to the effect “I just do the testing, you’ll have to ask the HSE” and then a week later a third appointment was received via txt, but no answer from the HSE as to why he’s being called back!

Might be a mix up, but judging by the non response to me mentioning it here, it doesn’t appear to be a widespread issue anyway

4068ac1elhodqr

UBI is getting a step closer with every passing day of human redundancies.
Labour in Scotland (and elsewhere) was keen, now Wales's own Future Generations Commissioner (Sophie Howe) is calling for it, along with 4day WW, as per her Manifesto for the Future.

Small trials are inaccurate however, it needs Universal applicaiton (and all the risks that go with this), can't see it until at least they have Brexit day+1 (to pull up the drawbridge) on such an offer of free monies and less work.

Gradius

Natalie Thankful Welt wrote: »

UBI is getting a step closer with every passing day of human redundancies.
Labour in Scotland (and elsewhere) was keen, now Wales's own Future Generations Commissioner (Sophie Howe) is calling for it, along with 4day WW, as per her Manifesto for the Future.

Small trials are inaccurate however, it needs Universal applicaiton (and all the risks that go with this), can't see it until at least they have Brexit day+1 (to pull up the drawbridge) on such an offer of free monies and less work.

There's as much chance of "free" money for everyone as there is Elvis appearing with a covid vaccine live on stage.

It is completely and utterly unworkable. Give everyone a tenner for nothing, watch prices rise in step.

charlie14

Natalie Thankful Welt wrote: »

Very hard to believe.

Mexico is joint 1st (1st 2013) (2nd 2017) for OECD obesity, along with the US.

Forbes got those stats from Mexico`s SINAVE database so I would not necessarily see a reason at face value to doubt them.


With obesity levels being so high in Mexico, and with obesity and diabetes (also at a high level) being blamed by the authorities in Mexico for the number of deaths, Forbes mined those stats as fact checks.
I found it a bit of a sobering thought that almost half that 35-55 age group passed with neither underlying condition.

end of the road

walus wrote: »

Well, you see life of a 20 year old is roughly worth 4x as much a a life of a 80 year old - 'value of statistical life' speaking. Has that been taken into account by any of the policy and decision makers? That adds onto the fact that those vulnerable people are a very small group of our society.


So technically speaking, forgive for being blunt here, we chose a path and are optimizing our lives for a tiny amount of the least valued lives. That is unheard of and would not have place even in an organization such as HSE, which is charged with protecting human health. Even there, especially there considering limited resources that they need to efficiently apply, value of life is seriously taken into consideration.

The government should have conducted a thorough analysis of the measures undertaken to monetize the risk reductions and to facilitate comparison of benefits and costs. I very much doubt that this has been done.

to take that into account would require concensus across the board, which doesn't exist and is realistically never going to do so.
some random 20 year old is of less value to me then my elderly relatives, i'm afraid.
someone else may think the opposite and so on.

Deleted User wrote: »

I think a lot of people just struggle to accept the harsh realities of life. Your life is not precious. You are 1 of 5M people in this country. The same applies to your parents, siblings etc etc. 1 life is not more important than the overall well being of several people.

We always need to approach things in a way that achieves the best possible outcomes for the majority.

Like I said earlier, if 10 people suffered from a rare illness, should we throw all our funds towards their treatment? Knowing that there will be no funding for anything else. Of course not. If the 10 people die, they die.

we are and always have been trying to approach things how you state we should be doing it.
ironically, it's the likes of you moaning and railing against everything who are making that difficult to achieve.

SusieBlue wrote: »

One person is not more important than everyone. Your income and finances are obviously not effected by the restrictions.
I have a vulnerable person in my life who has assessed the risk for themselves and decided they would rather enjoy life spent around loved ones than spend the last few years of their lives hiding alone at home in terror.

and it is because nobody is more important then someone else, that we have and are taking a balanced approach to manage all of the issues and keep the country running.
you need to get this, agreement or disagreement with whatever is not across the board based on one's income, you might like it to be otherwise but it's just not the case and you need to understand this.
it is because of the vital public health measures been taken that the vulnerable individual in your life won't have to "hide in their home in teror" as you put it, because there is protection there for them via most people following very simple requests.

SusieBlue wrote: »

Yes, if they’re that concerned about contracting the virus the sensible thing for them to do would be to take personal responsibility for their health and cocoon and avoid other people as much as is humanly possible.

If they are that terrified of the virus then it shouldn’t be a problem for them.

and that is why we have the public health measures we do, so that people can have personal responsibility and protect themselves, with some bit of confidence that they will be more or less protected because there are attempts to slow down and minimize the spread of the virus.
personal responsibility itself is going to do absolutely nothing if there are no measures in place to suppress the virus.

Ginger n Lemon

Health Minister Stephen Donnelly has faced a lot of criticism for his management of the Covid-19 pandemic since he has taken office.

But he has now secured a substantial budget package for the health service which will leave him with little excuses for people being forced to wait on trolleys in hospital corridors if he can manage the extra resources properly.

Half of the €4bn he has been allocated in the budget is to go towards 1,146 acute hospital beds and 321 intensive care beds. He is also getting an additional 1,250 community hospital beds and 600 rehabilitation beds.

The funding will also provide for a massive 16,000 additional health service posts across the sector. If all goes according to plan, the investment may significantly reform the health service and Mr Donnelly may be forgiven for his gaffe-filled interviews.

If the billions of euros don't make a difference, people will naturally start asking if he's up to the job. - Philip Ryan

No excuse now. Open up the country. (the classic)

Libski

Andrewf20 wrote: »

The unfortunate reality is that every year we put lives at risk in the winter by spreading the flu. Just think of the milling around of people in shopping centres in the build up to Christmas and the family gatherings. This probably plays a big part in the spike in flu that occurs in January that ends up killing many people. 3 - 4000 people die in Ireland each year from respiratory illness.

320 - 650, 000 die from influenza each year worldwide.

Should we have lockdowns each year? Where do we draw the line?

Do you realise that this is more contagious and deadly?