Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

boogerballs

boogerballs wrote: »

But why don't people understand that the reason we have such few deaths is due to the measures that were put in to mitigate the risks. Without those measures it would have been a big concern.

It’s not true.

The reason for the low deaths is that the virus is only really deadly to the over 80s with serious underlying issues and we have a young population.

Unfortunately we have failed to protect the nursing homes again and again.

Not that they can be fully protected of course. But the amount of clusters has been scandalous.

AssetBacked2

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It’s not true.

The reason for the low deaths is that the virus is only really deadly to the over 80s with serious underlying issues and we have a young population.

Unfortunately we have failed to protect the nursing homes again and again.

Now that they can be fully protected of course. But the amount of clusters has been scandalous.

I feel the data and this accompanying explanation need to be stickied in this forum unless evidence dramatically changes to provide otherwise.

I completely understand people spending a lot of time on twitter and the Irish media webpages to read about covid getting caught up in the hysteria, but they really need to switch off as it's clear that the doom narrative has taken over "wood from the trees" thinking for a lot of people.

wakka12

AssetBacked2 wrote: »

Do you have a source for that? 390 deaths from around 65000 cases under the age of 85 is 0.6%.

However, WHO estimates up to 10 times official reported cases have been infected with covid. We can all agree that many more than 65000 have likely been infected with covid. Even if we just doubled or tripled the cases, the deaths are staying the same, so we'd be looking at 0.3% or 0.2%,still conservatively estimated.

Remember, society is in lockdown based on something so evidentially harmless (relatively speaking). It would be different having a discussion about covid if we weren't in lockdown but I completely and entirely disagree with social and economic restrictions to deal with this virus based on the data.

You cannot make that assumption when there are so many elderly/vulnerable isolating, which brings down the IFR.
Please remember 0.3% of new york city's population died of COVID, 0.5%-1% of the population of several towns and cities in Lombardy died of COVID. In a situation where it spreads widely to all of a populaion as it did in April when vulnerable groups were unaware and and because of that made no effort to shield themselves, it is far higher IFR than 0.3% in such scenarios, no amount of your playing with statistics and massive leaping bounding conclusions and assumptions is going to change that reality

Seeing as you're listening to WHO's predictions of how many have been infected, it's interesting you've chosen to ignore their estimated IFR of 0.65% worldwide, which will obviously be a lot higher in Europe due to it's older age

road_high

froog wrote: »

it's called civic duty and empathy towards those who are at risk. you may need to google those terms.

And this is classic virtue signalling in all its glory- kindly go away, you know nothing of my empathy and civic duty as you clearly only measure that via a teeny tiny dimension of the world with its many illnesses and risks

robbiezero

Seweryn wrote: »

And the crucial word in that sentence is "with".

I saw on the 9 o clock news that RTE in their excitement at reaching the 2000 milestone went back to using "from".
Bunch of clowns.

MadYaker

AssetBacked2 wrote: »

I feel the data and this accompanying explanation need to be stickied in this forum unless evidence dramatically changes to provide otherwise.

I completely understand people spending a lot of time on twitter and the Irish media webpages to read about covid getting caught up in the hysteria, but they really need to switch off as it's clear that the doom narrative has taken over "wood from the trees" thinking for a lot of people.

You don’t understand any of the data you’re posting about. If you did you’d be coming to different conclusions.

Goldengirl

Happydays2020 wrote: »

They have not continued throughout as normal and it was not always due to patient choices. I know people who had certain treatments deferred because of advice that post op they would be more vulnerable.

Fear is powerful and that fear came from the public health professionals.

This is a very unreasonable post, Happydays .

Of course it didn't continue as normal , but it did continue .
And fear is sometimes a rational protective mechanism .
You can't treat vulnerable or immunocompromised patients in the middle of an infectious pandemic until you have more of an idea what it is and how to deal with it , which was how it was in the first few months .
Still learning about Covid , but a lot more being done now , and hopefully will continue depending on case numbers and staffing .



And as for the FEAR coming from health professionals , one of the big fears would be to kill someone by bringing them in to hospital for a treatment that could be postponed and thus while necessary is not essential during that time .
You talk as if this was normal times and doctors had choice .
Nobody had a choice this year .

prunudo

robbiezero wrote: »

I saw on the 9 o clock news that RTE in their excitement at reaching the 2000 milestone went back to using "from".
Bunch of clowns.

8pm VM news was the same, the way they reported it was as if the 2000 figure appeared out of nowhere. Why was it anymore shocking when it was 1994 people yesterday. As someone said, approx 350 have died from it since June, thats a figure to proud of when you see whats coming out of Europe.

Penfailed

Don't Chute! wrote: »

I just went on the RTÉ website and saw the headline:
“Virus deaths top 2000 with 379 new cases”.

Do you see what they did there? Before the cases always came before the deaths because the deaths are so low but now that we’ve reached a milestone they’ve switched it so it sounds worse. Subtle but very telling. Also they almost sound happy that we’ve finally reached 2000 deaths!

It's a headline number. They're not trying to be subtle. You're reading too much into the order of the reporting.

FintanMcluskey

wakka12 wrote: »

You cannot make that assumption when there are so many elderly/vulnerable isolating, which brings down the IFR.
Please remember 0.3% of new york city's population died of COVID, 0.5%-1% of the population of several towns and cities in Lombardy died of COVID. In a situation where it spreads widely to all of a populaion as it did in April when vulnerable groups were unaware and and because of that made no effort to shield themselves, it is far higher IFR than 0.3% in such scenarios, no amount of your playing with statistics and massive leaping bounding conclusions and assumptions is going to change that reality

Seeing as you're listening to WHO's predictions of how many have been infected, it's interesting you've chosen to ignore their estimated IFR of 0.65% worldwide, which will obviously be a lot higher in Europe due to it's older age

Those people died (with) Covid

Dying people are sick

Sick people get tested

weldoninhio

Goldengirl wrote: »

This flu season hadn't even started yet when that was written . 10% by September is amazing, lol !

And spare me your so " sincere concern for the elderly and vulnerable ," and eye rolling ..

Every day for the past 2 weeks we’ve been getting begging emails asking people to get the vaccine. They’ve even gone as far as offering actual prizes to those who get it. There’s a draw for everyone who takes it with All4One vouchers, hampers and annual leave. I’d say 5% of the nurses I work with have gotten it.

kippy

AssetBacked2 wrote: »

93% of all deaths had underlying clinical conditions.

And it is worth noting that under the age of 85 we have actually only had 270 deaths with covid in Ireland in the last 6 months and 394 total deaths in Ireland with covid since the beginning of covid, 8 months ago (which works out at 591 in a year).

Hardly worth calling covid a big concern.

It's a big concern for very obvious reasons. In that time scale, as you are well aware, we have had major restrictions on human behaviour in a massive effort to reduce deaths and cases.

patnor1011

What pandemic?

Portuguese Court Rules PCR Tests As Unreliable & Unlawful To Quarantine People
https://greatgameindia.com/portuguese-court-pcr-tests-unreliable/

The case in Portugal came about after four people were forcibly quarantined by the Regional Health Authority (RHA). One of these individuals received a PCR test, while the other three were deemed to have undergone “a high risk of exposure.”

The RHA decided that all of them were “infectious” based on the circumstances, mandating that they go into forced isolation for the prescribed two-week period that most governments seem to be utilizing.

These individuals sued for fraudulent science and won, setting a precedent for the PCR test to hopefully be discarded as pseudoscientific quackery, which is exactly what it is.

Even The New York Times told the truth by revealing that most people who test “positive” using a PCR test are actually negative and healthy.

Testing data collected from Massachusetts, New York, Nevada and elsewhere show that upwards of 90 percent of people who test “positive” with a PCR test are perfectly normal and disease-free.

“Given how much scientific doubt exists – as voiced by experts, i.e., those who matter – about the reliability of the PCR tests, given the lack of information concerning the tests’ analytical parameters, and in the absence of a physician’s diagnosis supporting the existence of infection or risk, there is no way this court would ever be able to determine whether C was indeed a carrier of the SARS-CoV-2 virus, or whether A, B and D had been at a high risk of exposure to it,” the Portuguese court corroborated about the faulty nature of the PCR test.

It is important to keep in mind that the PCR was never intended to be used as a method of trying to copy genetic material, which is how it is being used in Wuhan coronavirus (Covid-19) testing.

“It was never intended to be a diagnostic tool,” Great Game India reports.

In essence, if a PCR test is conducted on an immune person and turns up “positive,” what it is actually pulling up is perhaps a “shattered part of the viral genome.”

“Even if the infectious viruses are long dead, a corona test can come back positive because the PCR method multiplies even a tiny fraction of the viral genetic material enough [to be detected],” Great Game India further notes.

https://redstate.com/michael_thau/2020/09/03/ny-times-up-to-90-testing-positive-for-c19-virus-not-infectious-but-problem-actually-much-worse-n252966

walus

SNNUS wrote: »

6 week lockdown to be reviewed after 4 weeks.. Of course there is no review - Only in Ireland.

There was a review. Tony did it on a back of an envelope on his way to work. You were not told?

weldoninhio

PowerToWait wrote: »

Imagine moaning about something that has no impact on you whatsoever. Not to mention the fact that I'm certain if they didn't hold them you would be cribbing and claiming they were hiding something from you.

What a stupid post. How many other advisory bodies have multiple press conferences a week? I don’t watch Dr Death and his cronies, haven’t since March. I’ve no interest in their lies.

Dempo1

So the TUI were laughed at yesterday with their suggestions re extra Christmas Holidays, god bless their members who've had to work so hard for three months.

The latest sillyness has commenced within 24 hours, now it seems some schools will have to close for the rest of the winter due to poor ventilation, heating etc.

pjohnson

patnor1011 wrote: »

What pandemic?

Portuguese Court Rules PCR Tests As Unreliable & Unlawful To Quarantine People
https://greatgameindia.com/portuguese-court-pcr-tests-unreliable/

The case in Portugal came about after four people were forcibly quarantined by the Regional Health Authority (RHA). One of these individuals received a PCR test, while the other three were deemed to have undergone “a high risk of exposure.”

The RHA decided that all of them were “infectious” based on the circumstances, mandating that they go into forced isolation for the prescribed two-week period that most governments seem to be utilizing.

These individuals sued for fraudulent science and won, setting a precedent for the PCR test to hopefully be discarded as pseudoscientific quackery, which is exactly what it is.

Even The New York Times told the truth by revealing that most people who test “positive” using a PCR test are actually negative and healthy.

Testing data collected from Massachusetts, New York, Nevada and elsewhere show that upwards of 90 percent of people who test “positive” with a PCR test are perfectly normal and disease-free.

“Given how much scientific doubt exists – as voiced by experts, i.e., those who matter – about the reliability of the PCR tests, given the lack of information concerning the tests’ analytical parameters, and in the absence of a physician’s diagnosis supporting the existence of infection or risk, there is no way this court would ever be able to determine whether C was indeed a carrier of the SARS-CoV-2 virus, or whether A, B and D had been at a high risk of exposure to it,” the Portuguese court corroborated about the faulty nature of the PCR test.

It is important to keep in mind that the PCR was never intended to be used as a method of trying to copy genetic material, which is how it is being used in Wuhan coronavirus (Covid-19) testing.

“It was never intended to be a diagnostic tool,” Great Game India reports.

In essence, if a PCR test is conducted on an immune person and turns up “positive,” what it is actually pulling up is perhaps a “shattered part of the viral genome.”

“Even if the infectious viruses are long dead, a corona test can come back positive because the PCR method multiplies even a tiny fraction of the viral genetic material enough [to be detected],” Great Game India further notes.

https://redstate.com/michael_thau/2020/09/03/ny-times-up-to-90-testing-positive-for-c19-virus-not-infectious-but-problem-actually-much-worse-n252966

Amazing :pac:


You clearly didnt read your 2nd link at all.

Penfailed

BeefeaterHat wrote: »

There were riots in parts of Spain and Italy at the prospect of more lockdown. I think the general appetite for restrictions is losing its luster

Yeah...but the OP said riots were guaranteed. That's simply not true in Ireland.

Penfailed

road_high wrote: »

Bit if a misreading of the public mood here. The tide is turning big time. The government are in a very perilous situation if they continue the Nphet puritanical and frankly nonsensical dictats. The novelty is well and truly gone

Riots aren't guaranteed though. That's my point.

_Kaiser_

there was further evidence of division between Government and its public health advisers. Senior officials are said to have clashed with Dr Holohan during a meeting yesterday as efforts to draw up a plan to exit the lockdown and manage the pandemic over the Christmas period continue in Government.

According to three sources with knowledge of the meeting, senior officials emphasised to Dr Holohan that the Government – not the National Public Health Emergency Team (Nphet) – would make decisions about easing the lockdown and what restrictions would be in place over Christmas.

Officials, which included the secretary general of the Department of the Taoiseach Martin Fraser, the State’s most senior civil servant, also complained to Dr Holohan that Nphet members were seeking to pressure the Government with a series of media appearances.

One source said it was “made clear” to Nphet “that the Government will make the decision” on reopening, scheduled for December 1st. Another source confirmed that the Nphet “media strategy” was strongly criticised as some senior officials believed that its members are seeking to influence Government decisions through the media.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/covid-19-as-holohan-urges-people-to-work-together-senior-officials-clash-with-nphet-1.4413035


It's about time! I know it's all politically motivated of course (the Government want to get the credit for "saving Christmas") but Tony and his merry band of ass-coverers need to be put firmly back in their box, whatever the motivation.

brisan

caveat emptor wrote: »

What about mortgage breaks? Would that work? Property investment was alway rewarding and also extremely risky. Remember 2009 and 2010.

How long before the banks get into trouble if commercial loans and commercial mortgages stop being paid
If you are a shop owner and pay a 1000euro a week rent and have been closed for 26 weeks where does the 26,000 come from
Where does the landlord get the money to pay the mortgage
If the business closes and the landlord cannot get a new tenant what then
There is a big pile of crap coming and it only rolls downhill

AssetBacked2

MadYaker wrote: »

You don’t understand any of the data you’re posting about. If you did you’d be coming to different conclusions.

Go on.

walus

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/covid-19-as-holohan-urges-people-to-work-together-senior-officials-clash-with-nphet-1.4413035


It's about time! I know it's all politically motivated of course (the Government want to get the credit for "saving Christmas") but Tony and his merry band of ass-coverers need to be put firmly back in their box, whatever the motivation.

We have just spent 1.5bn on level 5 restrictions which it is fair to say made no meaningful impact or improvement. Someone needs to do the cost vs benefit analysis before we do that again. In a normal country they would do that.

brisan

Goldengirl wrote: »

Thanks .

I have recent data from last year that shows 67% of nurses received the vaccine .
78% doctors and dentists . .
Mainly in the North/ East region where a large number of major general hospitals concentrated .
Major hospitals have a better uptake due to having large occupational health departments available .
Uptake amongst community healthcare and long stay residential homes and nursing homes is lower but much improved as Ginger's article states , thanks GnL!
Peer vaccine training among healthcare workers / assistants in nursing homes and long stay residential is improving vaccine uptake and availability , once stocks available from HSE , this year .
I published this data when someone was going on about it here a few months ago so back the threads somewhere, maybe August ?

I work in a food production factory
Over 80% uptake of the free flu vaccine last year
None available this year
Do those in healthcare know something about the flu vaccine we don’t
Those levels of vaccine uptake in the HSE are a disgrace

wakka12

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Those people died (with) Covid

Dying people are sick

Sick people get tested

You are correct a small number die with rather than of, luckily the exact proprtion is cleared up in weekly releases of analysis by the ONS so this nonsense debate can be put to bed

Of the 1,937 deaths that involved COVID-19[in the week ending 6 November 2020], 1,743(90.0%) had this recorded as the underlying cause of death .

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending6november2020

So I'll correct myself then, 0.3% of New York City's population didn't die of COVID, 0.27% of it's population died of COVID, and 0.03% died with COVID.

patnor1011

Not only bad news today.

Immunological memory to SARS-CoV-2 assessed for greater than six months after infection

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.11.15.383323v1

There is speculation that immunity can last years or even a decade but only time will tell.

paw patrol

brisan wrote: »

I work in a food production factory
Over 80% uptake of the free flu vaccine last year
None available this year
Do those in healthcare know something about the flu vaccine we don’t
Those levels of vaccine uptake in the HSE are a disgrace

The flu vaccine is a best guess in advance of 3 or 4 strains , they have no idea what the prevalent strains will be .
Unless you are worried about flu , why would you bother?
i guess hospital staff know this better than most



The hospitals bribe/induce the nurses to take it with offers of free nights on the lash if a certain percentage in the section take the flu vaccine. If it was so great, why would they need to do this?

patnor1011

pjohnson wrote: »

Amazing :pac:


You clearly didnt read your 2nd link at all.

Amazing indeed. :pac::pac::pac:
It started with that article. Then there was obvious push back so it was labeled misleading - we all know why, it was going against curren narrative.

It ended up with Portugese court which I believe got more information on the subject most likely more relevant than your "belief". Hence the ruling.
See Elon Musk testing experience if you wan to see PCR tests reliability.

_Kaiser_

Claire Byrne reporting that minks in Ireland are to be culled - Tony H driving it again

paw patrol

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Claire Byrne reporting that minks in Ireland are to be culled - Tony H driving it again

poor minks - what the fcuk they ever do:(